i30 Owners Club
GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => PETROL => Topic started by: eLod on July 25, 2021, 02:54:27
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hello,
my old battery went dead (and a new one as well), so i started measuring current, and stopped + key off, it drains 150-200mA (identified the problem last weekend, it was draining 140-150mA then, dig deeper this weekend, now it drains 190-200mA) [usually the car stands for almost a week, which is enough to drain it fully].
i have found some wiring diagrams for 2010 1.6 models and could trace the current to junction box IP/C connector pin 12 (instrument cluster + data link). getting the instrument cluster out its left side was warm to touch. the cluster has 3 connectors (24p, 16p, 20p), when disconnecting all (or just the 24p, i guess this is where powers are coming in) there is no drain. if only disconnecting the 16p one, after initial 200-250mA draw, it goes under 10mA after a couple seconds (maybe 10-20). if only disconnecting 20p the initial spike is there, but it never goes under 190-200mA, and the left side of the cluster is getting warm. made some pictures, there are some noticable brownish patterns around that side of the green circuit board is, but no explicit burn marks. i haven't got the time yet to check pin by pin on the 16p one.
my problem is, it seems the cluster panels are slightly different for different engines, for example my 16p and 20p connectors seems to have different pins then in my schematics (picture attached, it seems some pins are simply not used in mine).
so my questions
1, can somebody provide me wiring diagrams for my specific car/engine please
2, given the symptoms, is it possible something is faulty outside the instrument cluster, like some signal coming in that should be shut off, but not happening? and how to debug this easy (i don't want to buy a replace part until i am sure the problem is with the ic)
3, it seems there are many variants of the instrument cluster, trying to search on ebay and etc. my cluster has the part number c76 fez 94033-2r500 11001-769601U written on it, what 94033 (or even 94003) variants are good for me, or where can i get more info about these.
thank you very much
(https://i.ibb.co/5hxvGgz/IMG-0872.png) (https://ibb.co/WvpFG4d)
(https://i.ibb.co/p2JBbbm/IMG-3905.png) (https://ibb.co/hsDJLLq)
(https://i.ibb.co/GCFTxW7/IMG-6507.png) (https://ibb.co/HGXdFt7)
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Interesting problem, @eLod .
Many may not notice such a drain if they're driving every day but, if left standing for a week at a time, these currents may become critical.
I can't help much with variants but someone with more technical information might reply soon.
I wonder what is kept alive after ignition is off. The only things that come to mind for this age of car are:
- clock and radio station memory, and
- security system.
If you have done the hard work of isolating the current drain to the instrument cluster, it points to the cluster illumination before the key is used, such as opening the door, displaying the odometer, car plan view and open door symbol.
The scorching around the voltage regulator marked (I think AD807) is probably normal for the age of car, since the regulator's job is to take the 12-14V down to whatever some components need for the board. The difference is dissipated in heat. Is there any other identifying data for the regulator? What are the voltage readings on each of its pins I,G and O? If IGO is In-Ground-Out, you should have 12-14V on I, 0V on G and something in-between, maybe 5V, on O.
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thanks for the info @The Gonz
yes, i know, if i would be using the car daily i wouldn't have noticed the problem
i tried my best, clamped all the door sensors, manually switched tail gate's lock, and etc., even locked the alarm. all the indicators and everything works as expected. the instrument cluster (and everything else) works as expected, only illuminates when "needed" (on door opens), no display on radio, no lights on BCM. so when it drains the 200mA nothing is illuminated or showing the cluster is "in use" by anything.
it's not strictly ignition, if i lock everything, open up the covers around the instrument cluster, and only by connecting/disconnecting the IC connectors, i can jump between the 200mA vs 10mA drain, without doing anything else. also when found the problem, i have already disconnected all the connectors from the IP junction box (only IP/C for the cluster and IP/H for power, then even disconnecting IP/C and only connecting its pin 12) and the drain was still present.
i am not sure, but i think the main source of the heat is not the AD807, in terms of when connected and trying to move my finger around the board the highest temperature seems to be lower (maybe around those double R59 R68 labeled stuff, see photo), but i cant tell for sure, bc i did not connect the board facing me (not sure if i can, the wires are very short), so i could only reach behind it without visual confirmation.
can you please help me, explaining some of your questions, i am not knowledgeable enough (i am an engineer, but developing sw, so i am not afraid of wiring diagrams, but it's certainly not my strong suit). what do you mean by "any other identifying data for the regulator", labels on the circuit board itself? in my wiring diagram (for the 1.6 engine)? or on the internet?
just to be sure, how do you want me to measure the IOG voltage, I compared to G or I compared to car's ground? (again sorry for silly questions)
unfortunately i can't debug on the streets here at my flat, bc i don't have enough space and peace, only on the weekends when i visit parents in countryside, until then i try to collect as much info as i can.
(https://i.ibb.co/LCf1sMB/heat.png) (https://ibb.co/MRL7JbK)
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thanks for the info @The Gonz
yes, i know, if i would be using the car daily i wouldn't have noticed the problem
i tried my best, clamped all the door sensors, manually switched tail gate's lock, and etc., even locked the alarm. all the indicators and everything works as expected. the instrument cluster (and everything else) works as expected, only illuminates when "needed" (on door opens), no display on radio, no lights on BCM. so when it drains the 200mA nothing is illuminated or showing the cluster is "in use" by anything.
it's not strictly ignition, if i lock everything, open up the covers around the instrument cluster, and only by connecting/disconnecting the IC connectors, i can jump between the 200mA vs 10mA drain, without doing anything else. also when found the problem, i have already disconnected all the connectors from the IP junction box (only IP/C for the cluster and IP/H for power, then even disconnecting IP/C and only connecting its pin 12) and the drain was still present.
i am not sure, but i think the main source of the heat is not the AD807, in terms of when connected and trying to move my finger around the board the highest temperature seems to be lower (maybe around those double R59 R68 labeled stuff, see photo), but i cant tell for sure, bc i did not connect the board facing me (not sure if i can, the wires are very short), so i could only reach behind it without visual confirmation.
R59 and R68 are surface mount resistors.
R=resisitor
C=capacitor
D=diode
TR=transistor
IC=integrated circuit
can you please help me, explaining some of your questions, i am not knowledgeable enough (i am an engineer, but developing sw, so i am not afraid of wiring diagrams, but it's certainly not my strong suit). what do you mean by "any other identifying data for the regulator", labels on the circuit board itself? in my wiring diagram (for the 1.6 engine)? or on the internet?
Just what else is on the regulator. I'm not confident 'AD807' is enough to identify it.
just to be sure, how do you want me to measure the IOG voltage, I compared to G or I compared to car's ground? (again sorry for silly questions)
Meter on volts range to cover up to 14 or so volts, negative lead on car ground (metal frame, screw hole, etc.), positive lead as probe for each of the I, G and O legs of the device. Careful not to touch more than one at a time!
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can you please help me, explaining some of your questions, i am not knowledgeable enough (i am an engineer, but developing sw, so i am not afraid of wiring diagrams, but it's certainly not my strong suit). what do you mean by "any other identifying data for the regulator", labels on the circuit board itself? in my wiring diagram (for the 1.6 engine)? or on the internet?
Just what else is on the regulator. I'm not confident 'AD807' is enough to identify it.
well i'm not even sure if its AD007 or AD807, i only have the pictures taken and they are not enough good quality to zoom in and see all the writing. as i said unfortunately i don't have the option to disassemble the instrument cluster here around my flat.
just to be sure, how do you want me to measure the IOG voltage, I compared to G or I compared to car's ground? (again sorry for silly questions)
Meter on volts range to cover up to 14 or so volts, negative lead on car ground (metal frame, screw hole, etc.), positive lead as probe for each of the I, G and O legs of the device. Careful not to touch more than one at a time!
thanks for the detailed info, appreciate it. maybe i'll take a day off, try measuring and take better pictures. i want to gather all the info i can before testing it again to minimize loops.
(https://i.ibb.co/f4dtc2t/ad007.png) (https://ibb.co/gzZwn3w)
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Here we go. Don't ask me to recount how I found it: a lot of guessing and random searching of manufacturers' logos.
:link: TLE4294G V50 - Infineon Technologies (https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/linear-voltage-regulator/linear-voltage-regulators-for-automotive-applications/tle4294g-v50/)
We now know (I guessed it) it regulates 5V on the O pin and delivers up to 30mA before shutting down. It's basically an equivalent to an LM7805 or 317. If you're not getting very close to 5V out of the O pin, you have a problem. If you are, you can discount a lot of the rest of the board. Either way, a circuit schematic for the instrument cluster would be great now.
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thanks, i have also found the 5V in the schematics, so i would already guessed on that, sry if was not clear/explicit.
as i said i only have the wiring diagrams for the 1.6 variants found on the internet, let me attach the 4 pages for the indicators & gauges. as i said the connector shapes/pins/locations are similar, but it seems not all the pins are used/not the same exact pin layout with my engine.
(https://i.ibb.co/fr1Q4fW/sd940-1.png) (https://ibb.co/VMj32RG)
(https://i.ibb.co/xCkw9fw/sd940-2.png) (https://ibb.co/Vj1bnQb)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNWQTd1/sd940-3.png) (https://ibb.co/3yNFwTH)
(https://i.ibb.co/Lg9cPPz/sd940-4.png) (https://ibb.co/7prZzzJ)
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actually i got some time to debug further, here are some info
the regulator has the following text on it: AD007 4274GV50
measured the IOG as you instructed, I is 11.85V, G is 0V, O is 5.02V so i guess this is alright.
the circuit boards still is warm, and it's the most warm at the spot i marked earlier (there, and left to it, so around R75 R76 and the other stuff)
i tried my best to isolate pins on the 16p and 24p connectors (the 20p one i keep disconnected as it does not seem to affect the drain), but i don't have enough small wiring to connect all the pins and disconnect only some.
for my 16p connector, actually there is only 8 pins actually connected, 3 from top row, 5 from bottom row. the 3 at top does not seem to affect the drain. when look at the female socket from front the pins are 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16, from those only 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 are connected. if connect only 10, 13 and 14 after the initial load there is no drain (measured, after around 1 minute, it goes from 180-200mA to 10mA (i can't measure more precisely/on smaller scale bc it will blow my 200mA fuse)). if i connect 10, 11 and 12 (or 11, 12 and 13) the 180-200mA never drops.
i also noticed all the pins on the bottom row are 12V (around 11.8V) (and none from the top row) compared to car ground, and when connecting them directly to car ground the lcd panel illuminates/turns on.
i also measured, but there is no current going through those pins, so i suspect it's going through the 24p connector. i tried to only connect some pins from the 24p connector, but i only have 3 reliable small wire connection. i connected pins 13 (room lp power) 15 (cluster power) and 23 (ground), this way the draw was only 100mA going through the ground (23) wire.
(https://i.ibb.co/Gtnt5sf/IMG-9144.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QCpCK87)
(https://i.ibb.co/BrFnwp6/IMG-9146.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sHZ59M)
(https://i.ibb.co/4Sy0hhk/IMG-9159.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R6nJRR8)
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oh i also wanted to mention something strange. so the drain problems started multiple weeks ago, i bought a new battery and when i noticed it drains that too i started the investigation deeper. i have a blue drive (ISG), but since i bought the car (about 2 years), ISG never worked, and the ISG OFF light was on, no matter if you pushed the button. neither the previous nor the current battery is a start stop battery, so it's normal ISG was not working, however when stalled and the clutch pushed it started up automatically (without key turn). now last friday (so well after the draining problems started) i went for a short drive and the ISG system started working, i noticed when it stopped the engine at a red light, the "auto-stop" indicator was lit on the instrument cluster, and i could switch on and off ISG with the button.
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One observation at a time:
- interesting point for your awareness: when your row of pins showing 12V are connected to ground (not something you would normally do without risking a short) and the board lights up, this is showing that those pins are meant to be grounded when connected, and that by grounding them you have completed the circuit and made the board function. We call this a floating earth because through lack of connection you have allowed the whole board to float to 12V.
The biggest point to take away from this is that you should leave those bottom pins connected when checking voltages around the board. Otherwise you'll be chasing false voltages.
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Next observation: the instantaneous high current that settles to a lower level is likely the various capacitors on the board (the components marked Cxx). These may be small surface mount devices (SMD) looking like the resistors and diodes or they can be larger metal can types. Capacitors used to be called accumulators because that's how they work - two plates spaced evently apart that allow current to flow but soon build opposing charges across the plate gap and stop the flow, creating a damping, filtering, storage effect. The time it takes for the capacitor to reach full charge (like a short-life battery) is called its time constant and measured in a few seconds at most.
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One observation at a time:
- interesting point for your awareness: when your row of pins showing 12V are connected to ground (not something you would normally do without risking a short) and the board lights up, this is showing that those pins are meant to be grounded when connected, and that by grounding them you have completed the circuit and made the board function. We call this a floating earth because through lack of connection you have allowed the whole board to float to 12V.
sorry for my ignorance, but does that mean i could possibly have damaged the cluster?
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You mentioned blowing a fuse when using your multimeter to measure current. Be careful that as an ammeter it is used in series with the circuit, not parallel to it as when you use it as a voltmeter.
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You mentioned blowing a fuse when using your multimeter to measure current. Be careful that as an ammeter it is used in series with the circuit, not parallel to it as when you use it as a voltmeter.
so you said "for your awareness ... (not something you would normally do without risking a short)" which i interpreted as a polite way of "don't do this ever or you damage your board", and asked if there is a possibility i already did (by connecting those pins to ground).
i know i have to measure ampers in series (and volts in parallel), what i was referring to is that i know for experience i can fry the 200mA fuse (i have replacements though), so i don't want to try and measure it in a smaller scale bc i am afraid i will blow the fuse (bc when i connect/disconnect the stuff around the initial load goes slightly above 200mA). on the 10A circuit i only see 0.20 - 0.19 - 0.18 (or 0.01 if the drain goes away), but i can't measure it more precisely.
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the regulator has the following text on it: AD007 4274GV50
measured the IOG as you instructed, I is 11.85V, G is 0V, O is 5.02V so i guess this is alright.
the circuit boards still is warm, and it's the most warm at the spot i marked earlier (there, and left to it, so around R75 R76 and the other stuff)
i tried my best to isolate pins on the 16p and 24p connectors (the 20p one i keep disconnected as it does not seem to affect the drain), but i don't have enough small wiring to connect all the pins and disconnect only some.
for my 16p connector, actually there is only 8 pins actually connected, 3 from top row, 5 from bottom row. the 3 at top does not seem to affect the drain. when look at the female socket from front the pins are 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16, from those only 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 are connected. if connect only 10, 13 and 14 after the initial load there is no drain (measured, after around 1 minute, it goes from 180-200mA to 10mA (i can't measure more precisely/on smaller scale bc it will blow my 200mA fuse)). if i connect 10, 11 and 12 (or 11, 12 and 13) the 180-200mA never drops.
i also noticed all the pins on the bottom row are 12V (around 11.8V) (and none from the top row) compared to car ground, and when connecting them directly to car ground the lcd panel illuminates/turns on.
i also measured, but there is no current going through those pins, so i suspect it's going through the 24p connector. i tried to only connect some pins from the 24p connector, but i only have 3 reliable small wire connection. i connected pins 13 (room lp power) 15 (cluster power) and 23 (ground), this way the draw was only 100mA going through the ground (23) wire.
just to be sure/explicit, when i said "connected" to car ground, i meant connecting them with the voltmeter to measure voltage, positive lead on one of the pins, negative on the car ground.
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just to be sure/explicit, when i said "connected" to car ground, i meant connecting them with the voltmeter to measure voltage, positive lead on one of the pins, negative on the car ground.
So the board lit up as you measured the bottom pins as a voltmeter? A voltmeter should have an impedance of at least 2MOhms, so there shouldn't be enough current to close the circuit. Not sure what's happening there.
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just to be sure/explicit, when i said "connected" to car ground, i meant connecting them with the voltmeter to measure voltage, positive lead on one of the pins, negative on the car ground.
So the board lit up as you measured the bottom pins as a voltmeter? A voltmeter should have an impedance of at least 2MOhms, so there shouldn't be enough current to close the circuit. Not sure what's happening there.
yes, "connecting" any of the (used) pins from the bottom row on the 16p female to the car ground via the voltmeter (to measure that ~12V) i see the lcd panel turning on.
how can i debug this further? my goal currently is to understand if the cluster board itself is faulty or the problem lies elsewhere.
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If you know the pins that cause the drain, try tracing where they go off the board.
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If you know the pins that cause the drain, try tracing where they go off the board.
well, i only had 3 small wires, and i saw 100mA [in that setup the whole drain was 100mA] go though the 23 pin (ground) on connector A, i ordered small cables, so hopefully i will be able to test it better. however if the drain goes to ground, is that something i should trace further (isn't it normal for current to go that direction, i mean the fault is in the board sending out that current no)? again sorry i am not familiar enough with circuits.
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Your excessive current doesn't just go to ground. It starts at the battery and gets into the board. Seeing it on a pin that you are sure is connected to chassis earth does not provide you with useful information. You'll need to find where it's flowing on the board or back out to some other devices. In your shoes, I would hope for a 2nd car to swap boards and maybe cables to compare.
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Your excessive current doesn't just go to ground. It starts at the battery and gets into the board. Seeing it on a pin that you are sure is connected to chassis earth does not provide you with useful information. You'll need to find where it's flowing on the board or back out to some other devices. In your shoes, I would hope for a 2nd car to swap boards and maybe cables to compare.
yes i would try with another cluster, but i don't know of anyone who has the same car. i tried to search for salvage yard prices, i found some clusters for relatively cheap (30-60 eur), but i don't know which part numbers are good for me (and i don't want to buy it just to see if drain is gone, but otherwise the cluster is not a match).
i have found a site (http://www.catcar.info/hyundai/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTUwfHx5ZWFyPT0yMDEwfHxyZWdpb249PUVVUnx8c3RzPT17IjEwIjoiUmVnaW9uIiwiMjAiOiIyMDEwIEV1cm9wZSIsIjMwIjoiMjAxMCBpMzBcL2kzMENXIDA5IChDWkVDSCBQTEFOVC1FVVIpICgyMDA5LSkiLCI0MCI6IkVMRUNUUklDQUwiLCI1MCI6IjkxOTQwIElOU1RSVU1FTlQgQ0xVU1RFUiJ9fHxjYz09SEVVUlBKREh8fGNhdD09SEVVUlBKREgwOXx8UmVnaW9uMj09RUVML0VFUi98fGYyMz09MlIwfHxncm91cD09RUx8fHc9PTkxOTQwfHxwYWdlNTA9PQ%3D%3D) which lists components but to my dismay it lists 14 different components for the same number 94033-2R500 with different configurations.
for debugging further: i am trying to understand how to best debug the issue. only connect the power in pins for the board and measure current through the ground pins, and if all current is there, follow those wires? try to connect the pins directly (eg leaving out the board from the circuit) and see if the drain is still there (so it's not the component what is faulty)? what i don't understand how it's only flowing (draining) depending on some control pins (10-14, says driver/passenger, rear lh, rear rh, i guess door open indicators?) connected.
[edit: corrected the part number]
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only connect the power in pins for the board and measure current through the ground pins
Measuring current through the ground pins or through the supply pins should not give a different reading, but I would prefer to leave the ground pins grounded and work from the supply side.
try to connect the pins directly (eg leaving out the board from the circuit) and see if the drain is still there
That will create a short circuit, blow your fuses and tell you nothing.
what i don't understand how it's only flowing (draining) depending on some control pins (10-14, says driver/passenger, rear lh, rear rh, i guess door open indicators?) connected.
That is the real problem. The best you can do is isolate exactly which supply pin causes the current drain and then try to trace the voltage around the board, but without a schematic showing good detail like expected voltages, you have a challenge. Also, with only the supply pin connected causing the drain, check again for a hot spot. If 200mA are still flowing and it is not normal, then the board has the problem.
If not, then reconnect pins that lead to door switches, lamps, etc. until the drain returns, then it will point to the cable or device at its end.
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so as i said earlier, supply and ground pins are in connector A, the problematic pins are in connector B, if i don't connect connector B at all, there is no drain (after the initial take up and 1 minute passed).
also there is not a single pin in connector B that by itself reproduces the drain (to be specific, whatever pin i connect, after the initial load and 1 minute passed it goes down to 0.01A reading for all configurations of a single pin). furthermore whatever i did i couldn't produce the persistent draw for whatever 2 pins combination, i have to connect at least 3 (from 10-14) to see the drain persisting after 1 minute. i have to connect 10+11+12, or 10+11+13, or 11+12+13, to be able to see it.
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10+11+12, or 10+11+13, or 11+12+13
Where do these pins lead? Door switches? Indicators? Alarm module?
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(https://i.ibb.co/wLTzFKG/sd929-2.png) (https://ibb.co/X49Crz0)
also i took a day off from work for tomorrow, hopefully i can debug this further
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Door switches!
Are you seeing the excessive current flow through the door switches?
Is the insulation on the wiring to the switches in good condition?
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sry for my ignorance, but can you be pls be more specific? are we talking about the push buttons on the driver door (eg the window up/down and central lock)? am i supposed to open/disassemble the door? when i measured no current flow was going on the 10-14 pins of the instrument cluster connector B. please talk to me as if i were a dumbass (which i am regarding to reading circuits).
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You tell me. In the diagram each door switch is labelled with a corresponding photo. What does the photo show?
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unfortunately i don't have the photos only the wiring diagrams
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In any case, it might be useful to compare resistance to each of these switches from where it connects to the board. They should all measure fairly high (use the ohmmeter setting and measure from cable pin to ground.
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Looking at that wiring diagram, I would think those Door and Tailgate switches refer to "door open" switches, not window control switches, as they link to the door open tel-tale on the cluster. That's just my observation anyhow.
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Looking at that wiring diagram, I would think those Door and Tailgate switches refer to "door open" switches, not window control switches, as they link to the door open tel-tale on the cluster. That's just my observation anyhow.
Thanks, I suspect as much but measuring from the board end of the wiring would negate the need to determine it or take anything else apart.
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ok, finally, i had some time to check around. it seems one of my wires i used for the original tests was faulty, bc now i could reproduce with any 2 pin combinations
so here is what i did
- connected an ammeter on the battery negative side in series to be able to check overall drain all the time
- disconnected all the 3 connectors from the instrument cluster, never connected the C one (20pin)
- on connector A (24pin) only connecting pins 12 (fuel sender), 13 (supply from ROOM LP fuse), 15 (supply from CLUSTER fuse), 23 (ground), 24 (fuel ground)
- on connector C (16 pin), i connected various configurations. it seems only ping 10-14 is affecting the parasitic draw, all the others do not affect the outcome (but i haven't test every possible configuration, just connected all except 10-14, confirmed no draw).
so when connecting any of the 10-14 pins in isolation, the draw goes up to around 0.18A (ammeter on battery), after 1 minute it goes down to 0.01A. any time i disconnect/connect another pin, the process repeats (goes up, then after a minute goes down).
any 2 combinations of the 10-14 pins and the 0.18A never goes away. measured current through all the connected pins (with another ammeter, putting it between the connector male and female pin) both when there is a parasitic draw and when there is not.
on connector A
pin 12: 80-82mA initially, then 0mA after a minute when there is no parasitic draw
pin 13: 162-167mA and 1mA after a minute when there is no parasitic draw
pin 15: 0mA
pin 23: 162-167mA and 1mA after a minute when there is no parasitic draw
pin 24: 80-82mA initially, then 0mA after a minute when there is no parasitic draw
if not connecting pin12 and 24
pin 13: 85-87mA
pin 15: 0mA
pin 23: 85-87mA
(i havent wrote down which one was negative/positive, but i think we can guess current direction from the wiring diagram)
on connector B measured pins 10-14, none of them had any current flow ever
i checked what happens if i connect pins 10-14 to car ground directly, and i can confirm they lit up the lcd showing the appropriate door open signal
pin 10: driver (lhd)
pin 11: passenger
pin 12: rear lh
pin 13: rear rh
the push sensors on the doors are working all, checked one by one, when everything connected they do turn on the lcd and show the appropriate signal
In any case, it might be useful to compare resistance to each of these switches from where it connects to the board. They should all measure fairly high (use the ohmmeter setting and measure from cable pin to ground.
should i measure between the board connector pins (eg the male pins of connector B) and between the car ground? or do i need to locate the wiring for the door lock sensors (is that the same thing as the switch or those are different components?)?
measuring between the board pins and ground (using the setting 2M Ohm), all is fluctuating constantly:
pin 11: 0.050 - 0.150 (sometimes even dropping to forties/thirties)
pin 12: 0.250 - 0.320
pin 13: 0.250 - 0.320
pin 14: 0.250 - 0.320
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In any case, it might be useful to compare resistance to each of these switches from where it connects to the board. They should all measure fairly high (use the ohmmeter setting and measure from cable pin to ground.
should i measure between the board connector pins (eg the male pins of connector B) and between the car ground? or do i need to locate the wiring for the door lock sensors (is that the same thing as the switch or those are different components?)?
measuring between the board pins and ground (using the setting 2M Ohm), all is fluctuating constantly:
pin 11: 0.050 - 0.150 (sometimes even dropping to forties/thirties)
pin 12: 0.250 - 0.320
pin 13: 0.250 - 0.320
pin 14: 0.250 - 0.320
strange. i measured with the other multimeter, all 4 pins show -0.470 (on 2M, -4.70 on 20M) (and not fluctuating at all). both my multimeters show 0 when i connected the leads and 0L or 1 if not connected to anything. also if i connected the COM to the pin and the positive to ground i get a reading, but if connecting COM to ground and positive to pin then as if no connection.
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@The Gonz.
I have admiration for helping here under difficult circumstances, reliant on only text exchanges during faultfinding in a different time zone. I have been trying to make head or tails of it myself, but I am finding it really difficult to follow.
Question. Are you asking @eLod to measure impedence of each door switch sense wire to ground, from (disconnected) connector at the Cluster.
See diagram attached. i.e. pins 10,11,12,13. disconnected from Cluster represented by red X's.
I see from the circuit diagram that wires from those switches also individually run in parallel to "BCM" via other connectors "MF12" and "MF22" located somewhere. So impedence test, even if Cluster connector is disconnected, will be affected by the BCM in parallel.
@eLod
Note: When you are using a multimeter in Impedance (ohms) mode, the meter itself applies a dc voltage. Make sure the circuit you are testing is not live with another dc voltage, otherwise results will be strange.
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@eLod
Note: When you are using a multimeter in Impedance (ohms) mode, the meter itself applies a dc voltage. Make sure the circuit you are testing is not live with another dc voltage, otherwise results will be strange.
sry for the dumb question, are you saying i should disconnect the battery (or otherwise cut the power to the instrument cluster) for measuring impedance?
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What I am saying is measure the impedance of the wiring and switches with the connector to Cluster disconnected, so that the wiring is isolated from the vehicle power source. However, as that same switch wiring also runs in parallel to the BCM, the circuit you wish to measure impedence is not truly isolated, even with the Cluster connector pulled.
With the Cluster connector pulled, is there a voltage present at the cable pins 10, 11, 12, 13 ?
If so, that may be due to those door switches also being connected to BCM. That will mess with your switch circuit impedence measurements.
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@The Gonz.
I have admiration for helping here under difficult circumstances, reliant on only text exchanges during faultfinding in a different time zone. I have been trying to make head or tails of it myself, but I am finding it really difficult to follow.
No kidding! The recognition is appreciated, @Greyhound. This is really challenging to follow for me, too.
Question. Are you asking @eLod to measure impedence of each door switch sense wire to ground, from (disconnected) connector at the Cluster. See diagram attached. i.e. pins 10,11,12,13. disconnected from Cluster represented by red X's.
Precisely. Thanks for volunteering that clarification.
I see from the circuit diagram that wires from those switches also individually run in parallel to "BCM" via other connectors "MF12" and "MF22" located somewhere. So impedence test, even if Cluster connector is disconnected, will be affected by the BCM in parallel.
Yes, there may be some unknown effect from the BCM but with the battery disconnected (ideally after as long as 30 minutes) the BCM's influence may be negated.
@eLod
Note: When you are using a multimeter in Impedance (ohms) mode, the meter itself applies a dc voltage. Make sure the circuit you are testing is not live with another dc voltage, otherwise results will be strange.
Yes, never mix resistance measurement and live voltage. The battery should be disconnected given that the BCM is still in circuit.
@eLod, you have posted a lot of information. I'll have to try to reconcile what you have described with the diagram and it may take some time.
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@eLod, you have posted a lot of information. I'll have to try to reconcile what you have described with the diagram and it may take some time.
sure, i appreciate the time and energy you put into helping me, thank you very much.
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small update: finally i could get my way to the bcm, and disconnecting only the B connector (20pin) the drain is gone (after waiting 1 minute), while leaving everything else connected (everything in the car). after dinner i will try to measure/isolate pins, i'm guessing its the 4 (door switch) pins i already found via the instrument cluster, but gonna try measure everything i can.
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Small but good update. I was hoping you'd find out a little more to go on.
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@eLod
I see that connector B pin14 goes to "Tailgate Actuator" and that the "Luggage Lamp" is also in that circuit.
Question: Can you confirm the "Luggage Lamp" is really not lit when tailgate is closed.
Maybe pull the bulb if at all uncertain or to discount that completely as source of current drain.
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so this is what we could do today: without removing anything else, finally found the bcm and how to remove its connectors and etc get it out. as i said disconnecting only the B connector (20 pin) and (after a minute) the drain went away. then tried and only connecting B (and removing A and C) the drain was present. we went into trying the pins. kept all the 4 door switches pins connected, and then we found that pin 5 connected the drain was present. the diagram says that is washer motor. so we tried to investigate the motor itself, we spent quite some time trying to get to it (its behind the front bumper next to the passenger side front wheel), we couldn't remove the front bumper, but removing the wheel and the cover finally we could get to it. we disconnected it and unfortunately the drains was still there. (also measured current going through pin 5 but nothing, also not on the door switch pins). at this point we had to start assemble the car back together as i had to come back to the city (we opened the rear tail and disconnected the wiper motor, bc when i bought the car 2 years ago there was a fix involved with that - just for completeness: there was a write cut and the motor itself most likely was unused so it got stuck, the repair guy opened the motor, cleaned it, got it going and then identified the cut wire and fixed it, the wiper works ever since and still).
so tomorrow i go back and debug further, trying to measure pin by pin, trying every combination if the drain is present or not.
btw checked the door switches, there is a single wire coming to the switch and the ground is connected via the screw that holds it on the frame (i would need to remove chairs and disassemble the covers on the columns to get to the wiring though).
@eLod
I see that connector B pin14 goes to "Tailgate Actuator" and that the "Luggage Lamp" is also in that circuit.
Question: Can you confirm the "Luggage Lamp" is really not lit when tailgate is closed.
Maybe pull the bulb if at all uncertain or to discount that completely as source of current drain.
well the drain was present when pin 14 was not connected. also i checked luggage lamp many times before to rule it out, it's a common problem (e.g. youtube videos for parasitic drain and etc.), but yes, if i lock manually the tailgate lock (eg with a screwdriver) the lamp goes off and i can see the additional drain when it is on on my ammeter.
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just to make it explicit: only connecting pin 5 and the 4 pins for the door lock (pins 12, 13, 14 and 15) on connector B (and connector A and C not connected at all) the drain was present (these are connectors for BCM, all the other stuff, like instrument cluster, everything else was connected).
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@eLod
I see that connector B pin14 goes to "Tailgate Actuator" and that the "Luggage Lamp" is also in that circuit.
Question: Can you confirm the "Luggage Lamp" is really not lit when tailgate is closed.
Maybe pull the bulb if at all uncertain or to discount that completely as source of current drain.
well the drain was present when pin 14 was not connected. also i checked luggage lamp many times before to rule it out, it's a common problem (e.g. youtube videos for parasitic drain and etc.), but yes, if i lock manually the tailgate lock (eg with a screwdriver) the lamp goes off and i can see the additional drain when it is on on my ammeter.
i just blindly replied to your comment, without checking. bcm connector M04-B pin 14 is rear left door (which was connected as i described) not tailgate. bcm's M04-A pin 17 is connected to tailgate actuator on my diagrams. (M04-B pin 16 is tailgate switch, but that was not connected)
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I was referring to this diagram and circuit I have marked in red.
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so here is where we stand:
on instrument cluster connectors:
- M01-A (24p) connected only are pins 12, 13, 23, 24
- M01-B (16p) only pins 10, 11, 12, 13
- M01-C (20p) not connected at all
on bcm connectors:
- M04-A (24p) not connected at all
- M04-B (20p) only pins 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15
- M04-C (32p) not connected at all
as i said earlier current only on (red/positive lead on connector male pin, black/com lead on cluster female connector pin):
- M01-A 12: 80-90mA
- M01-A 13: 160-170mA
- M01-A 23: -160-170mA
- M01-A 24: -80-90mA
- no current on the other pins
it seems i need only 2 of the 4 door pins and one of the 5, 8 or 9 pins of M04-B for the drain to never go away (eg leaving only 1 pin from M01-B 10, 11, 12 or 13 OR leaving only 1 ping from M04-B 12, 13, 14 or 15 and after a minute that initial 160-170mA is dropped to 10mA).
also on M04-B (the 2 door pins not counted) only one of 5 or 8 or 9 produces the draw (eg it does not go down to 10mA after 1 minute, but "holds" the 160-170mA). furthermore by the diagram there is no pin 9 (it should be empty) however it is clearly connected, so we checked all the wirings, there are 3 that are different from the diagram (pictures attached for top and bottom row on male connector back):
- pin 9: this is the biggest mystery. the wiring diagram says there should be no wire here. there is an orange one in the connector in this place.
- pin 16: this should be G/B (green/black) but in reality it is white
- pin 20: this should be G/B but in reality is white/black
furthermore: bc you mentioned the luggage lamp and the tailgate actuator, we opened up the tail gate cover again, and disconnected everything
- wiper motor
- connector for the button that opens the lock (is this the switch?)
- connector of the lock itself (is this the actuator?)
- even the rear window heater
- also disconnected the luggage lamp
the drain was still present (with the appropriate pins connected on the instrument cluster and bcm), so we ruled out those
(https://i.ibb.co/KVT6wm1/bottom.png) (https://ibb.co/44hWdJQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/FnyFcjf/top.png) (https://ibb.co/x3BNwRc)
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today i'm gonna debug further, and going to try to connect the instrument cluster and bcm door pins directly (leaving out the circuit to the door switches and back) to confirm the problem is not on that path.
i just wanted to report something odd that happened, maybe this will shed some light onto the issue. yesterday we were driving the car at night and parked at a darker place for a bit. now i noticed that the instrument cluster's lcd panel is slightly lit when we was sitting and waiting in the car, no readings/icons/anything, just a slight backlight. i started to play around with it, and sure enough i could do stuff like open and close door, or even lock the car with the remote, first the instrument cluster goes full dark then after about 20-30 sec that half back light comes back (these are all with key out/off).
i'm guessing that is what is drawing the current and we simply never have noticed it in daylight (it was very hard to notice at 10pm dark when parking in city even in darker places, went out to a full dark place and it was more clear it was "partly on/lit").
i'm trying to understand what can cause that lcd to turn on (eg logic inputs), but i think with key off the only things are door switches. as i said i will try to wire the door pins directly to the bcm to rule out anything on that path.
also just to confirm: if i connect the instrument cluster only with the door pins removed and the measure voltage between the instrument cluster connector pin (eg the pin on the cluster itself) for any door switch and the ground should that actually make the instrument cluster lcd come on and show the particular door to be open? (i know it should happen if i ground the pin explicitly, but should it happen when using the voltmeter?)
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Good catch observing this in the dark. It sounds like this is the more likely cause of the drain. Your planned next steps are reasonable. I agree the likeliest stimulus for the dash lighting up again is the door circuit. Have you checked whether this 20-30 second window coincides with the energised circuits shutting down? When I park in my garage I can hear the circuit whining until it shuts everything down. This is the point at which window controls will no longer respond after the key is out.
Voltmeters should present at least 2MOhms impedance, so the very cheapest should leak 12V/2000000 = 6uAmperes. This shouldn't even register as useful current. So a voltmeter should be checking a voltage as if it is still open circuit.
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I agree with The Gonz, your nighttime observation is a promising lead.
Im wondering if that LCD backlight is affected by the instrumentation variable brightness control (assuming that car has it). What happens if that is adjusted up or down? Does adjusting it right down turn LCD backlighting completely off?
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I agree with The Gonz, your nighttime observation is a promising lead.
Im wondering if that LCD backlight is affected by the instrumentation variable brightness control (assuming that car has it). What happens if that is adjusted up or down? Does adjusting it right down turn LCD backlighting completely off?
well in that place (left to the driving wheel, on the crash pad) i have:
- a light scroll stuff, but judging by the icon i think it is rather controlling the headlight angle and not the lcd
- esp off
- isg off
- empty slot (though wires do come in the back, just no button/control there)
(https://i.ibb.co/VgfpDcV/buttons.png) (https://ibb.co/hB31HJs)
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...assuming that car has it
well in that place (left to the driving wheel, on the crash pad) i have:
- a light scroll stuff, but judging by the icon i think it is rather controlling the headlight angle and not the lcd
- esp off
- isg off
- empty slot (though wires do come in the back, just no button/control there)
Well from that photo, I guess your FD does not have a instrumentation brightness control.
The "light scroll.." control in that panel is headlight beam level adjust, not instumenattion brightness adjust.
Edit: When you were sitting in the car in the dark and key removed, were the car lights etc also switched OFF?
I wonder if that LCD backlight behaviour is also visible when car is locked, lights off, you are outside it looking in through the window?
Also I just did a web serach and found this item, but I think the current drain they had was much greater than you have experienced. Maybe worth a quick read though:
:link: Untraceable Current Draw on 96 i30 - Car Forums and Automotive Chat (http://www.automotiveforums.com/t1063667-untraceable_current_draw_on_96_i30.html)
A couple of YouTube videos re parsitic current draw which may be of some interest:
:link: 2009 Hyundai Parasitic Draw - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg168ZmUj60)
:link: The BEST Way TO Perform a Parasitic Draw Test - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRcj1fQcWwU)
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Well from that photo, I guess your FD does not have a instrumentation brightness control.
The "light scroll.." control in that panel is headlight beam level adjust, not instumenattion brightness adjust.
yeah i came to the same conclusion
Edit: When you were sitting in the car in the dark and key removed, were the car lights etc also switched OFF?
I wonder if that LCD backlight behaviour is also visible when car is locked, lights off, you are outside it looking in through the window?
yes it is, not just when locked, when alarm is on and etc. i will assemble the car back together shortly and will double check again, but yeah, we were outside the car, it was locked and the half lit backlight was there.
Also I just did a web serach and found this item, but I think the current drain they had was much greater than you have experienced. Maybe worth a quick read though:
:link: Untraceable Current Draw on 96 i30 - Car Forums and Automotive Chat (http://www.automotiveforums.com/t1063667-untraceable_current_draw_on_96_i30.html)
A couple of YouTube videos re parsitic current draw which may be of some interest:
:link: 2009 Hyundai Parasitic Draw - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg168ZmUj60)
:link: The BEST Way TO Perform a Parasitic Draw Test - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRcj1fQcWwU)
thanks for the urls, i will check them out thoroughly, haven't had the time yet
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ok, so here are today's findings:
- when i connected the 4 door pins directly between the bcm and the instrument cluster the drain was still present, so i think the problem is not on the path between instrument cluster - door switches - bcm.
- i measured voltage drop on the instrument cluster M01-A connector's pins 13 (power) and 23 (ground). i ensured the drain was there, then checked voltage with meter between the battery and the pin. i checked both positive and negative sides for the battery to be sure before measuring on small scale for actual drop with the appropriate side. so between battery positive and pin 12 there is 11mV drop, and between battery negative/ground and pin 23 there is 14.7mV. this indicates to me that the current i see on these pins is actually consumed by whats between those pins (the instrument cluster, or maybe something through it if that's possible), eg there is no other consumer on those path (from battery to pin 12 and from pin 23 to ground).
- i measured impedance between the female connector pins for door switches of instrument cluster (so not on the cluster itself) and ground. on my multimeter on the 2M ohm setting scale all read around 0.425 (10 was .426, 11 was .425, 12 was .424 and 13 was .430) (just to be sure i disconnected the battery fully to do this test)
- i measured impedance between the male connector pins of the instrument cluster, specifically between the M01-A pin 13 (power) and the various door switch pins (M01-B 10-13) to understand if there are diodes or resistors between them (wiring diagram shows diodes). on a 20M ohm setting they read around 6.8 (10 was 6.88, 11 was 6.79, 12 was 6.81 and 13 was 6.96) (for this test i took out the cluster and nothing else apart from these pins were connected)
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i made a video about it. sry for the quality but i had to turn the brightness all the way up so you can clearly see the half lit state. everything is connected and functional. i got into the car, settled the phone into place, started recording, got out. you can already see the half lit state, but i did a passenger side door open and close. then went for the keys, bc i put it like 15m away from the car, the farthest i could get it on the property. opened and closed the passenger side door again. then after the half lit state came back did a lock with alarm with the remote.
video (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GCxvkQMgsQX8ARWCkQco856UEftKYQGP/view?usp=sharing)
edit: pls note: the video is relatively large (0.5GB)
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Also I just did a web serach and found this item, but I think the current drain they had was much greater than you have experienced. Maybe worth a quick read though:
:link: Untraceable Current Draw on 96 i30 - Car Forums and Automotive Chat (http://www.automotiveforums.com/t1063667-untraceable_current_draw_on_96_i30.html)
A couple of YouTube videos re parsitic current draw which may be of some interest:
:link: 2009 Hyundai Parasitic Draw - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg168ZmUj60)
:link: The BEST Way TO Perform a Parasitic Draw Test - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRcj1fQcWwU)
thanks for the urls, i will check them out thoroughly, haven't had the time yet
well checked those. the forum thread is not really helpful. the first video is about a bad alternator, i can check it, but my problem seems to be the cluster. the second video is about measuring volt drops on fuses, but i am way past that point.
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I also thought those links may be too general for your case after I had posted them, but maybe some measurement ideas.
Regarding unexpected lit LCD, have you seen this thread on here: :link: I30 milometer LCD backlight comes on by itself (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=57402.0)
Is your LCD still lit long after car is locked. e.g. have you viewed it after an hour since locking and taking key away?
I presume you know the LCD illumination LED, is shown on another schematic drawing "INDICATORS & GUAGES (2)" that you posted before. But those schematics are not proper circuit diagrams and not very helpful in troubleshooting IMO.
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I also thought those links may be too general for your case after I had posted them, but maybe some measurement ideas.
Regarding unexpected lit LCD, have you seen this thread on here: :link: I30 milometer LCD backlight comes on by itself (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=57402.0)
Is your LCD still lit long after car is locked. e.g. have you viewed it after an hour since locking and taking key away?
I presume you know the LCD illumination LED, is shown on another schematic drawing "INDICATORS & GUAGES (2)" that you posted before. But those schematics are not proper circuit diagrams and not very helpful in troubleshooting IMO.
yeah a bit too general, nevertheless i appreciate the energy and time
haven't seen that thread yet, interesting. when i first encountered the problem i simply bought a new battery hoping it will solve it (before even measuring draw), it didn't. so i'm guessing buying a new one wouldn't solve it.
i haven't checked the lcd backlight after hours, but when i first identified that there is a parasitic draw i already googled around and found out that everybody warns about leaving the car at least for half hour - hour alone after shutting it down so every module can go to sleep properly, so i did wait to confirm the draw is present after an hour without doing anything (getting out fuses etc). i haven't identified the backlight at that time yet, so i wasn't checking it explicitly. i could wait for tonight and check, i don't think i will be using the car today.
yeah that indicator & gauges schematic was the first i was looking around bc i identified the problem around the cluster very early. i measured that impedance on the cluster bc somebody else on another forum was suggesting to leave out the cluster and connect the M01-A pin 13 (power) directly to M01-B pins 10-13 (door switches) and said to use diodes between those pins bc the schematic has diodes between those pins, but also said that "It seems to me that if there are diodes in that circuit opening a door would create a dead short circuit, and blow the room lamp fuse." so he said they may be resistors and the schematic is wrong.
so i am still trying to understand if this is a faulty instrument cluster or something else. by my limited understanding i would say this is, but i really don't want to spend 100 EUR just to try it out. (i searched for the exact same part number, i tried to understand if there are different part numbers compatible with my car, but i couldn't get meaningful responses from local wreckyards and dealers)
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just to be explicit: so my part number for the instrument cluster is 94033-2R500. i found a site (http://www.catcar.info/hyundai/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTUwfHx5ZWFyPT0yMDEwfHxyZWdpb249PUVVUnx8c3RzPT17IjEwIjoiUmVnaW9uIiwiMjAiOiIyMDEwIEV1cm9wZSIsIjMwIjoiMjAxMCBpMzBcL2kzMENXIDA5IChDWkVDSCBQTEFOVC1FVVIpICgyMDA5LSkiLCI0MCI6IkVMRUNUUklDQUwiLCI1MCI6IjkxOTQwIElOU1RSVU1FTlQgQ0xVU1RFUiJ9fHxjYz09SEVVUlBKREh8fGNhdD09SEVVUlBKREgwOXx8UmVnaW9uMj09RUVML0VFUi98fGYyMz09MlIwfHxncm91cD09RUx8fHc9PTkxOTQwfHxwYWdlNTA9PQ%3D%3D) which lists components. if you check my part number is for multiple configurations and for those multiple configurations there are multiple other part numbers listed as well, so i would think that my part number is compatible with all the listed configuration for it and further all part numbers that list one of those configurations (that is listed for my part number) is also compatible, but obviously i am not sure.
i tried to ask wreckyards, but none of them have the exact number nor can they confirm another part number would work ok. i tried an official dealer, they said they are not allowed to give out part numbers, if i order a new one through them i can see the part number on the invoice. they gave me a quote for 1700 EUR. i also found a local shop that sells new original factory parts and they gave me a quote for 300 EUR. they were very helpful and said they would think if i would buy one from a petrol manual transaxle one it most likely would work. i also found the exact same part number on ebay for like 100 EUR (with ~78k km). also found plenty of other part numbers very cheap (like 30-40 EUR from poland, lithuania).
i don't mind spending that 100 EUR if that is likely going to solve the issue, but i would like to perform any debugging (that is appropriate at my level) before jumping to buy a replacement part. i would have done this the first time i found the problem with the instrument cluster, but my understanding was very limited and many of you suggested to debug further and check the bcm and etc. i am trying to understand if i can troubleshoot this further, order a new speedometer or just give up and take to an electrician (when i first identified the problem i had 2 contacts, but both of them said they are overbooked/going on vacation, so i had 2-3 weeks just to debug myself while i wait).
bonus point: i tried to investigate/understand what is the situation with replacing the cluster, eg. mileage change. we are not planning on selling the car, but i want to keep everything clean and proper. obviously i can change the cluster myself and have the invoice and etc with the other papers for the car, but i can just ask a shop to make an official entry in the service book about replacing the cluster and the different mileages hopefully for some low price. if i can i would love to have the new cluster display the actual/real mileage but i am not sure if that is possible with my cluster or who is authorised to do this, can you guys help me better understand my options here?
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so i checked the car now, it is parking since we arrived home back yday around midnight, so it is parked for at least 21hours and i am kind of sure that the backlight is on (it's hard bc there is street light around, so it's not as easily visible as in full dark, but i think i can see it), so it simply never goes off.
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Regarding cluster part number. Have you tried entering you car VIN on http://partsouq.com/ (http://partsouq.com/) and see which part that throws up for cluster that matches your specific car?
This thread may tell you more about recording of old odometer reading in owners book if new cluster is fitted by dealer.
:link: 2010 i30 1.6 CRDi CW Instrument Dash Panel LCD Screen Illumination Problem (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=27147.0)
One more thing comes to mind. You will see from the circuit schematic "INDICATORS & GUAGES (2)", that the LCD LED connects direct to "CLUSTER GROUND". Can you check if connection to that "CLUSTER GROUND" is good. I would think that to be vital reference for cluster logic circuits to work properly.
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Regarding cluster part number. Have you tried entering you car VIN on http://partsouq.com/ (http://partsouq.com/) and see which part that throws up for cluster that matches your specific car?
i didn't know that site, thanks. entered my vin (it's TMADB51CABJ152727) and it lists the part number (the same i can read from the part itself obviously). it does not list anything else or i'm not sure how i should be searching. it specifically says:
Engine Capacity: (D1) 1400 CC - GAMMA; Fuel Type: (1) GASOLINE - UNLEADED; TRANSAXLE: (5) MANUAL T/M - 5 SPEED 2WD; opt: 5891A2, 5894A1, 9401C1, 94M0A1, 94X4A1, 94X6A1
not sure what those opts are, i guess the same ones i've found on the other site (i think this is my config: ABS (ANTI LOCK BRK SYS), ESC (ELECTRONIC STABILITY CONTROL), CLUSTER TYPE - CONVENTIONAL, SPEEDOMETER TYPE - KMPH, AUTO STOP (ISG), M/T SHIFT INDICATOR)
This thread may tell you more about recording of old odometer reading in owners book if new cluster is fitted by dealer.
:link: 2010 i30 1.6 CRDi CW Instrument Dash Panel LCD Screen Illumination Problem (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=27147.0)
yeah i actually found that thread and a couple others. they indicate that the cluster never gets recoded officially and the mileages (real vs displayed) simply differ. that said i found some other sites saying the eeprom (the one on my cluster, i am guessing it is s93c56) can be changed, but i haven't found a reliable guide/howto/description.
One more thing comes to mind. You will see from the circuit schematic "INDICATORS & GUAGES (2)", that the LCD LED connects direct to "CLUSTER GROUND". Can you check if connection to that "CLUSTER GROUND" is good. I would think that to be vital reference for cluster logic circuits to work properly.
yeah i found that on the schematic but i am not sure how to identify that on the board actually or how to perform test on it actually, can you help me with that?
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just to be explicit: so my part number for the instrument cluster is 94033-2R500. i found a site (http://www.catcar.info/hyundai/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTUwfHx5ZWFyPT0yMDEwfHxyZWdpb249PUVVUnx8c3RzPT17IjEwIjoiUmVnaW9uIiwiMjAiOiIyMDEwIEV1cm9wZSIsIjMwIjoiMjAxMCBpMzBcL2kzMENXIDA5IChDWkVDSCBQTEFOVC1FVVIpICgyMDA5LSkiLCI0MCI6IkVMRUNUUklDQUwiLCI1MCI6IjkxOTQwIElOU1RSVU1FTlQgQ0xVU1RFUiJ9fHxjYz09SEVVUlBKREh8fGNhdD09SEVVUlBKREgwOXx8UmVnaW9uMj09RUVML0VFUi98fGYyMz09MlIwfHxncm91cD09RUx8fHc9PTkxOTQwfHxwYWdlNTA9PQ%3D%3D) which lists components. if you check my part number is for multiple configurations and for those multiple configurations there are multiple other part numbers listed as well, so i would think that my part number is compatible with all the listed configuration for it and further all part numbers that list one of those configurations (that is listed for my part number) is also compatible, but obviously i am not sure.
You mentioned multiple configurations of the cluster from that site, that is why I suggested entering you VIN on partsouq to confirm the part for your vehicle.
yeah i found that on the schematic but i am not sure how to identify that on the board actually or how to perform test on it actually, can you help me with that?
From Photos and Schematics at test point for "Cluster Ground" is unseen. I could guess that it is the large areas of copper on the copper side of the cluster board, but is just a guess. (I am not an automotive Electrician).
The only thing that says Ground or "G" is centre pin of the voltage regulator you posted earlier. I see you have done that already:
What are the voltage readings on each of its pins I,G and O? If IGO is In-Ground-Out, you should have 12-14V on I, 0V on G and something in-between, maybe 5V, on O.
measured the IOG as you instructed, I is 11.85V, G is 0V, O is 5.02V so i guess this is alright.
Personally, with the limitations of available information regarding the circuits and workings of the cluster, I would give up on measurements and go for part substitution to try and solve the problem, even though that means spending some money with no guarantee of a fix.
I assume your ISG problem (Reply #8) was corrected by the new battery. I assume that new battery you puchased was one compatible with ISG?
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You mentioned multiple configurations of the cluster from that site, that is why I suggested entering you VIN on partsouq to confirm the part for your vehicle.
sorry, my english is not that good. what i've meant is, i know the exact part number in my car. however that exact number has multiple configurations listed, (i'm guessing) meaning that it is good/compatible with other configurations not just mine. furthermore (still theorising), if my part number is compatible with for example configurations A, B and C, i would expect that other part numbers that list A or B or C is also compatible with my part number (for my own configuration).
From Photos and Schematics at test point for "Cluster Ground" is unseen. I could guess that it is the large areas of copper on the copper side of the cluster board, but is just a guess. (I am not an automotive Electrician).
The only thing that says Ground or "G" is centre pin of the voltage regulator you posted earlier. I see you have done that already:
What are the voltage readings on each of its pins I,G and O? If IGO is In-Ground-Out, you should have 12-14V on I, 0V on G and something in-between, maybe 5V, on O.
measured the IOG as you instructed, I is 11.85V, G is 0V, O is 5.02V so i guess this is alright.
Personally, with the limitations of available information regarding the circuits and workings of the cluster, I would give up on measurements and go for part substitution to try and solve the problem, even though that means spending some money with no guarantee of a fix.
yeah i will try to inspect it if i can, i am not an electrician either so i am not sure if i will find it. i tried to see how/where the lcd is connected but i was afraid to try to disassemble it bc potentially ruining something.
i will speak with an electrician just to be on a safe side, i'll see if i can get an appointment soon
I assume your ISG problem (Reply #8) was corrected by the new battery. I assume that new battery you puchased was one compatible with ISG?
no, nor my previous, neither my new battery is a start stop one, so i don't expect the isg to work, and most of the time it simply never did (the isg off button's light is always on, can't switch isg on). however since these draws began and changed the battery there was at least 2 times where i went for a ride on friday (the car was used previous sat or sun, so almost 1 week standby) and suddenly isg started to work (the car shuts off at red light, the indicator shows up on the cluster and the button's light is off, i can push it and it turns isg off and then pushing again turns it back on, and it seems the isg is fully functional). i am not sure, but then on the weekend i usually disassemble the car, disconnect the battery so it resets back and isg is permanently off again. not sure what is causing it, very strange. i do have a larger battery then the original, the same one as before (same model number, it used to be an austrian one, now its varta blue dynamic E43, 572 409 068 (this number was on the austrian one as well), 72ah, 680A).
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There should be some large easily visible areas of copper that measure 0V when operating, as a common ground for the board. Other large areas would likely show 12V when powered. The G pin on the regulator should show a short (0 Ohms) to the correct ground rail.
But ... I agree substitution is now the smarter option.
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There should be some large easily visible areas of copper that measure 0V when operating, as a common ground for the board. Other large areas would likely show 12V when powered. The G pin on the regulator should show a short (0 Ohms) to the correct ground rail.
But ... I agree substitution is now the smarter option.
here are the good photos i have about the board, but i can investigate further.
i can order the cluster for the 100 EUR no problem, i am just not sure what part the BCM play in this (the BCM is easier to find and way cheaper, even for 10-20 EUR for the exact same part number, though i know i have to have it coded for my setup so there is additional cost and etc., but just testing it out).
edit: just to be sure, these are large photos, you can click on "load full resolution" in the imgbb site in the middle of the photo to have the original (better quality for zooming in)
(https://i.ibb.co/qR7X1TY/IMG-2187.png) (https://ibb.co/cNkMT4h)
(https://i.ibb.co/HhFGcbZ/IMG-4629.png) (https://ibb.co/6XnDKTQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/NSFYRKr/IMG-6166.png) (https://ibb.co/xH25Z6Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/PN4mK99/IMG-8437.png) (https://ibb.co/FKJx200)
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In general, all circuit designs have the majority of their components referenced to ground. You can work from a ground pin at a connector (or the regulator G pin) and then from that reference, look for short-circuit contact across the board (with the power off) or probe to find the 0V points with power on. I'm not convinced you will gain very much from exploring in this way without a good schematic.
I've reverse engineered complete circuits just probing and track tracing, then drawing up a schematic, but not to this complexity.
I tried finding a datasheet for the MB90F025F, a Fujitsu embedded microcontroller, but no luck.
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In general, all circuit designs have the majority of their components referenced to ground. You can work from a ground pin at a connector (or the regulator G pin) and then from that reference, look for short-circuit contact across the board (with the power off) or probe to find the 0V points with power on. I'm not convinced you will gain very much from exploring in this way without a good schematic.
I've reverse engineered complete circuits just probing and track tracing, then drawing up a schematic, but not to this complexity.
I tried finding a datasheet for the MB90F025F, a Fujitsu embedded microcontroller, but no luck.
i very much appreciate your time and energy spent. i didn't understand this is a lengthy process, i thought it's something clearly visible to the naked eye (that's why i uploaded those photos).
so do you think i should order the cluster from ebay? should i try a bcm first?
i was thinking maybe performing one another test.
as far as i understand currently the problem is related to the cluster and bcm, specifically the door switch pins and some other pin from the same bcm connector. also as i said, if i just ground those other pins from the same bcm connector the problem is also present.
in a factory service manual i've found that the door switch controls are voltage based (sorry for the wording, but my understanding is limited), eg it says under "Terminal voltage" for the BCM, row says function: logic input, pin name: driver door sw, state: open/on, voltage level low level: below 1V, voltage level high level: over 6V.
obviously if i ground any of the door pins themselves the lcd actually comes fully on (showing the indicator as well) and draws more power than my parasitic drain. now if those door pins are connected and one of the other problematic pins also connected the light is also half on, and if i ground any of those problematic pins the same happens.
so i want to measure voltage with voltmeter on these pins (on bcm and on cluster as well) when any of those problematic pins are connected or grounded, maybe something there causes a problem?
on the other forum a guy suggested buying some cheap diodes (1N4001) and try to block current from flowing from bcm to cluster, though i said i couldn't measure current going through those door pins.
do you think any of those tests (or any other) is worth trying out, or i should just skip to order replacement parts?
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i just bumped into this thread :link: Intrument panel display backlight stays on after closing car (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=53493.0)
it's the exact same problem, but he says the instrument cluster got replaced but the problem remained. i have messaged him for further info, maybe has some pointers.
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I have just done a search and found this thread on hyundai-forums: :link: Parasitic Battery drain B+3 | Hyundai Forums (https://www.hyundai-forums.com/threads/parasitic-battery-drain-b-3.676551/#post-6067727)
Whilst I do not think that link will help you with your cluster problem, it may help others searching "parasitic current draw" on here in the future. Of interest is a door/tailgate switch fault affecting the logic, preventing the car entering into "sleep mode".
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I have just done a search and found this thread on hyundai-forums: :link: Parasitic Battery drain B+3 | Hyundai Forums (https://www.hyundai-forums.com/threads/parasitic-battery-drain-b-3.676551/#post-6067727)
Whilst I do not think that link will help you with your cluster problem, it may help others searching "parasitic current draws" on here in the future. Of interest is a door/tailgate switch fault affecting the logic, preventing the car entering into "sleep mode".
thanks i've found that thread myself before. at one point we disconnected everything (including the tail gate lock/latch) on the tail door, even the window deicer and the draw was present, so we excluded those.
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I may be going over old ground (pun unintended) but this can get confusing. Is parasitic draw present with all the door switch pins disconnected? If so, the problem will be elsewhere. Another way to check is to ensure every door switch is transitioning cleanly between 0V and 12V. Also, is the cabin light on while it happens? Disconnecting cabin light or removing its globe might eliminate one more doubt.
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I may be going over old ground (pun unintended) but this can get confusing. Is parasitic draw present with all the door switch pins disconnected? If so, the problem will be elsewhere. Another way to check is to ensure every door switch is transitioning cleanly between 0V and 12V. Also, is the cabin light on while it happens? Disconnecting cabin light or removing its globe might eliminate one more doubt.
so the draw was present when i connected only
1, power and ground pins on instrument cluster connector A (pins 13 and 23 if i recall correctly)
2, 4 door pins on instrument cluster connector B (pins 10-13 if i recall correctly)
3, 4 door pins on bcm connector B (pins 12-15)
4, washer motor pin on bcm connector B (pin 5)
nothing else is connected on instrument cluster or on bcm (and everything else is connected in the car) and the drain is present. furthermore the drain is present if i connect the 4 door pins directly from instrument cluster to bcm, leaving out the door switch paths totally. also the drain is present if i connect washer motor pin to ground and not to it's actual connector.
most of the time while i am investigating i keep the dome/rooftop light on off so it does not interfere. i can confirm when the car is totally assembled and door closed or locked with alarm the dome light goes out while the lcd backlight comes on (if i recall correctly when open and close a door, this coincides, eg when the dome light fades out the lcd backlight comes on, i think around half minute, but when you lock with alarm the dome light fades out immediately and the lcd still only comes on after around half a minute).
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the drain is present if i connect the 4 door pins directly from instrument cluster to bcm, leaving out the door switch paths totally
This sounds like you can assume the door switches are not the problem unless there is a path from the BCM to the switches elsewhere.
Any non-standard aftermarket add-ons or signs of DIY modifications? GPS, dashcam, reverse cam?
Has the latest power cut-out safety modification (at the battery and engine fusebox) been done correctly?
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the drain is present if i connect the 4 door pins directly from instrument cluster to bcm, leaving out the door switch paths totally
This sounds like you can assume the door switches are not the problem unless there is a path from the BCM to the switches elsewhere.
well as i said nothing else was connected on the bcm, so i doubt it.
Any non-standard aftermarket add-ons or signs of DIY modifications? GPS, dashcam, reverse cam?
no, i don't know of any and i haven't found anything while disassembling the front pad (for the inside fuse box), the cluster or the center console (for the bcm).
Has the latest power cut-out safety modification (at the battery and engine fusebox) been done correctly?
sorry, i am not sure if i understand what you are asking
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Quote from: The Gonz on 3 hours ago
Has the latest power cut-out safety modification (at the battery and engine fusebox) been done correctly?
sorry, i am not sure if i understand what you are asking
About a year ago Hyundai sent me a letter to have a power cutout circuit installed as a change to the fusebox near the battery, and it included an extra connection to the battery as well. It is designed to cut power to some system components that would otherwise keep being fed 12V, considered a fire risk if moisture got in.
Dear Hyundai Customer,
Hyundai is recalling certain Hyundai vehicles produced between Aug. 17, 2005 and May 14, 2011.
Our records indicate that your Hyundai is affected by a vehicle safety recall that requires the installation of a relay kit in the anti-lock brake (ABS) circuit.
When in contact with moisture an electrical short within the ABS module may cause an engine compartment fire, even when the vehicle is turned off, as the circuit is constantly powered. This could increase the risk of serious injury to occupants, bystanders and property. We therefore recommend the vehicle is parked away from flammable structures e.g. not in a garage.
To correct this potential concern we request that you contact an authorised Hyundai dealer to arrange a time to have this procedure performed. This work will be carried out free of charge. A list of Hyundai dealer locations and service department contact details can be found atwww.hyundai.com.au/dealer.
Please present this notice to your Hyundai dealer when attending your appointment. We understand that due to Coronavirus, you may have reservations about attending your local dealership, or the dealer may be operating reduced hours for the short term. We recommend you to contact your dealer to confirm the process relating to Good Hygiene for coronavirus (COVID-19) and their operating hours. The health and safety of you and Hyundai dealer personnel are the priority.
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@The Gonz Is this the fuse box recall you mentioned: :link: Recall HYUNDAI R/2020/059 - Vehicle Recall UK (https://www.vehicle-recall.co.uk/recall/R/2020/059)
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Quote from: The Gonz on 3 hours ago
Has the latest power cut-out safety modification (at the battery and engine fusebox) been done correctly?
sorry, i am not sure if i understand what you are asking
About a year ago Hyundai sent me a letter to have a power cutout circuit installed as a change to the fusebox near the battery, and it included an extra connection to the battery as well. It is designed to cut power to some system components that would otherwise keep being fed 12V, considered a fire risk if moisture got in.
i'm not registered to anywhere, i bought the car like 2 years ago used, was imported from austria before that. the history is somewhat documented, but for example i already took it to a shop that is a general shop and not a hyundai dealer.
can you describe what i need to check/look out for?
edit: i already shared my vin above TMADB51CABJ152727, not sure if that helps you check anything
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@The Gonz Is this the fuse box recall you mentioned: :link: Recall HYUNDAI R/2020/059 - Vehicle Recall UK (https://www.vehicle-recall.co.uk/recall/R/2020/059)
Yes, the wording matches. When I was installing LED switchback DRLs like mine to a neighbour's car, I noticed his model had different work done on the fuse cover, introducing a piggyback fuse wired externally to the battery positive, and a different shape cover as a result. This threw me because the ignition-on voltage in his box was then a different location than on mine. A couple of months later, I got my recall and by then I knew the difference.
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so today's findings:
everything connected, but the cluster and the bcm. on the cluster on connector A pins 13 and 23 (power and ground), on connector B only the 4 door pins. on bcm only connector B, door pins. now if i connect for example pin 5 on bcm connector B (wash motor) to its own connection (eg between bcm and the connector) the drain is present. even if i connect the pin 5 on bcm connector B (on the board) to ground the drain is present. furthermore many other pins behave the same way, if i connect them to ground the drain is present.
1, i measured the voltage for the 4 door pins at the bcm and at the cluster. if there is no drain, the voltage is around 12.1V for all the pins at the cluster and the bcm. if i connect pin 5 (bcm B) to ground the voltage drops to 11.12-11.13V for all pins both at bcm and cluster. not sure if this drop is enough to turn the lcd half on or it indicates something different.
2, what is strange to me, that with this setup the draw is 80mA (fuel sender not connected), however this is what i see: if i have the setup described as above and i connect - disconnect the pin 5 - ground i see the lcd backlight turning on and off, however the amp meter is not changing a bit, dead steady at 80mA, not sure if it's some capacitor or how i don't see change in current.
3, what is double strange i did a test with only 2 door pins connected at bcm and pin 5 grounded. then i inserted the diodes for the 2 door pins and checked all 4 possible scenarios (the diodes parallel same direction both ways and diodes inverse direction both ways) and only in 1 (parallel) was the draw present. i tried to reason about it, but i am not sure how this is possible.
4, first i double checked, tried to measure with the ammeter, tried to measure with a 2A clamp, i don't see any current on those door pins, not at cluster not at bcm (when diodes not present, drain present). i really don't understand what is going on.
5, however now there seemed a solution, first i tried adding the 4 diodes to all 4 pins (all connected) and verified the draw is not present (the backlight actually does not come on). then i just checked, if i insert only a single diode but between pin 5 and ground i could also make the drain not present. then i tried moving the diodes to the cluster door pins, but that did not work (all the same direction, in one way the drain was present, the other way simply the lcd did not come on on door open).
6, as a final test i did reconnect all connector on cluster, both A and C connector on bcm, and every pin from connector B with small wires, but having the 4 diodes in the door pin connections. as far as i can tell everything works and the drain is not present. the diodes were connected like: female pin in connector (so the wire that comes to the board) - cathode (smaller grey part) - anode (larger black part) - male pin on the bcm board.
7, i also checked out the bcm if i see anything on it, photos attached, there are some wear marks, but i think that is likely some coating melting and not burn marks.
8, meanwhile a couple days ago i ordered a used bcm (same model number), it was 12 eur with free shipping (from lithuania), so i figured it's worth it to check out even if i throw it out right after (i know replacing bcm has ramifications for key programming)
9, now the bcm is in a place that is very hard to get to, so i think maybe it would be easier to fit the diodes at other place like those MF12 and MF22 connectors, do you maybe have PHOTO 54 and 91?
(https://i.ibb.co/1qkW8kS/IMG-9178.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yyrjWr3)
(https://i.ibb.co/FzyxfYh/IMG-9179.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxFLwgf)
(https://i.ibb.co/bJcv7gC/IMG-9180.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YZHdb71)
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+1, i think i might have offset my engine coolant temperature gauge, eg when the vehicle is stopped it falls way below zero, and when driving even after 10-20km it never goes above the first mark (i guess 70), i think it used to be in the center (90). i noticed those gauges can turn way much around and has some room before 0. the speed and rpm gauges do settle at 0 and work ok, the fuel tank gauge also seem to work ok. i tried to set all the 0 before putting it back, but once i got the key in to ignition and switched off the temp gauge fall way below 0. how do i reset it?
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Good progress but without a board in my hands increasingly difficult to follow. The spare board should be a big help. I'm not fully understanding the effect of the diodes but don't forget they typically contribute .7V each as a voltage drop when forward biased.
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Good progress but without a board in my hands increasingly difficult to follow. The spare board should be a big help. I'm not fully understanding the effect of the diodes but don't forget they typically contribute .7V each as a voltage drop when forward biased.
that voltage drop is without diodes. eg the grounding of the pin 5 in bcm connector B makes the door pin circuits go from 12.1V to 11.1V (and turns the lcd backlight half on)
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well i took a day off, the other bcm arrived on monday. i just tried the replacement bcm but the problem is still present (the lcd backlight is half on, drain is present), so i would guess it's not the bcm. most likely it's the cluster, but i am not sure if it's worth it to try to replace that, and the easier solution is to place the diodes in (either myself or get some shop to do it).
one thing i noticed is that if i hit the central lock (or all door lock/unlock, whatever it is called) on the driver door the backlight is turned off for half a second, eg doors are not locked, i push the unlock all side of button (i see 5-6A on ammeter at battery) and the backlight turns off, after a second or two the backlight comes back on. (on my driver door i have the mirrors controller thing, the lock/unlock all doors button, and 2 window up/down switches, my rear windows are manual)