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First Tankful

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Offline Mutley

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I've heard that it's very bad to run a tank to empty (apparently more so for diesels than ULP)?

Any truth to this - or do we need Mythbusters?

I certainly wouldn't try and do it ...but by my understanding the diesel has a very effective bosch filter (it should be as it retails for over A$100) so I think the risk of damaging the motor with contaminants is minimal..

Feedback on here is that if you completely run out it takes a bit of priming but no real drama..
That's right :wink: No drama at all...if you know what you need to do.

If you run out just put about 10L in, take the top fuel line off the fuel filter and prime it by pushing the big silver button up and down until fuel flows out. Connect the hose and away you go!


Offline clackerz

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Learn sumthin new everyday.....

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Offline inmn

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Quote
I've heard that it's very bad to run a tank to empty (apparently more so for diesels than ULP)?

Any truth to this - or do we need Mythbusters?

I have never really understood it. Given that you use a car regularly, there will come a time when you end up pushing it to the limit as far as driving with a near empty tank. At this point all the accumulated dregs at the bottom of your fuel tank will be sucked into the fuel line but hopefully filtered properly.

So is it so bad for the fuel filter to take a big hit of dregs every year or 2 or is it worse if it happens a few times a year?


Offline agentr31

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well it depends LOL if the fuel filter is almost blocked it might block it up

i would be more worried about water in the system! water and engines dont mix... even more so for a diesel!


Offline Lakes

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people always say there will be dirt in the tank, but they are just guessing, also most tanks take the fuel from the top not the bottom they use fuel pumps not gravity feed.
my nephew drove his new common rail turbo diesel over to show me a few years back. when he went to leave. it would not start was out of fuel. he had 24 hour nissan assistance. they told him the system self primes. was same as the i30 CRDi had the button on to of fuel filter. we went got 5Lt's of diesel put it in the tank. still would not start. phonned nissan they asked if it was parked on level ground. it was on a hill facing downward so we moved it to level ground and a few turns it firred up ran sweet. no problems kept it three years sold to his mate , just got a new diesel, he loves the diesels now like i do.


Offline agentr31

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Offline Lakes

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diesel = good!!
Hi agenttr31, see you have got a strut brace, where did you get it?
cheers


Offline agentr31

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diesel = good!!
Hi agenttr31, see you have got a strut brace, where did you get it?
cheers

PM sent


Offline Surferdude

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people always say there will be dirt in the tank, but they are just guessing, also most tanks take the fuel from the top not the bottom they use fuel pumps not gravity feed.

Lakes, please explain in more detail.
If the fuel is taken from the top of the tank, what happens when you use some. How can it pick up fule if there is air there.
I haven't pulled a tank apart for many years but it seems logical to me that the pick up will be at the lowest point of the tank, regardless of the age of the car.
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Offline agentr31

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obviously the pick up is at the bottom... about 1 cm from the bottom, its actually in a swirl pot... well sort of a swirl pot just 2 bits sitting up to help prevent fuel starvation durning cornering...

infact most petrols have an intank filter!!! usually its just really fine wire mesh or in my maxima's case a "sock" that fits over the intank fuel pump!

if we were guessing that fuel was contaminated/dirty then there would be no need for an inline fuel filter...


Offline Lakes

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i just ment the fuel line comes from the top of the tank not the bottom. like agent said petrol have pump in the tank.
i have always filled my tanks to the top and run to the fuel light, unless i'm going on a long trip then i fill right up b4 i leave.


Offline Surferdude

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i just ment the fuel line comes from the top of the tank not the bottom. like agent said petrol have pump in the tank.
i have always filled my tanks to the top and run to the fuel light, unless i'm going on a long trip then i fill right up b4 i leave.

So you agree it doesn't matter how far down you run your tank.
My wife won't let hers get below a third before she fills up - learnt from her father. My argument is that fuel is cleaner these days and fuel filters more effective so it shouldn't be an issue.
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Offline Mutley

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i just ment the fuel line comes from the top of the tank not the bottom. like agent said petrol have pump in the tank.
i have always filled my tanks to the top and run to the fuel light, unless i'm going on a long trip then i fill right up b4 i leave.

So you agree it doesn't matter how far down you run your tank.
My wife won't let hers get below a third before she fills up - learnt from her father. My argument is that fuel is cleaner these days and fuel filters more effective so it shouldn't be an issue.
I agree, especially with a new car. The only way filth would get into your tank is if you put it in there.


Offline Lakes

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i just ment the fuel line comes from the top of the tank not the bottom. like agent said petrol have pump in the tank.
i have always filled my tanks to the top and run to the fuel light, unless i'm going on a long trip then i fill right up b4 i leave.

So you agree it doesn't matter how far down you run your tank.
My wife won't let hers get below a third before she fills up - learnt from her father. My argument is that fuel is cleaner these days and fuel filters more effective so it shouldn't be an issue.

Well i have never had a problem yet and over 40 years & millions of K's travelled so i'm not about to change. i think its easier to find good fuel @ a good price in the city as higher turn over, so i like to be able to fill up in city drive out country & return on same tank. sometimes i do 1,200k b4 i get back to city.
the good thing about your wife keeping tank up is she won't run out of fuel, some people cut it too fine.


Offline agentr31

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filth gets in your tank from every other tank the fuel had been in since it was refined!

it has a chance to collect dirt ect ect from the minute its made, the pipes it travles in, to the storage tanks its stored in, then the pipes its sent to load out in, then the truck that its loaded in, to the storage tanks at the service station, then in the bowser and finally your tank! dont forget all the tanks are probably mild steel that the fuel is stored in, then water gets in there, condenses at the top of the tank, causes rust that inturn falls into teh fuel so there is another contaminent...

just think if 1 grain of dirt got in for every 50L (say an average car fuel tank) and at every stage its handled then thats a lot of gunk over the course of the life of your car...


Offline Surferdude

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^^^
Thanks for that.
Good stuff from someone in the know. :cool:
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Offline agentr31

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well im not exactly in the know! just know a little!


Offline Surferdude

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Well yes. But I think where you work might give you an advantage.
 :wink: :cool:
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Offline Dazzler

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filth gets in your tank from every other tank the fuel had been in since it was refined!

it has a chance to collect dirt ect ect from the minute its made, the pipes it travles in, to the storage tanks its stored in, then the pipes its sent to load out in, then the truck that its loaded in, to the storage tanks at the service station, then in the bowser and finally your tank! dont forget all the tanks are probably mild steel that the fuel is stored in, then water gets in there, condenses at the top of the tank, causes rust that inturn falls into teh fuel so there is another contaminent...

just think if 1 grain of dirt got in for every 50L (say an average car fuel tank) and at every stage its handled then thats a lot of gunk over the course of the life of your car...


Tanks Ian.. very logical case you put there  :mrgreen:
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Offline Lakes

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All ian said would be true, But in this day and age we have some very good filtration systems. i'm sure the big three would filtrate there fuel.
also for petrol, everytime fuel is pumped or poured it looses octain. the octain rating we see at the bowser in Australia is Refinery octaine Number not what the octain is at the pump. in the USA they get pump octain number so our 98 octain would be more like the american 93 octaine. i buy race fuel when i race at that has a motor octain number, the designations are RON,PON or MON.
the servo i get my Vortex has a large externat filter on the diesel bowser


Offline agentr31

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almost lakes!! it doesnt quite loose octane because its poured or pumped!

Good quality gasoline should be stable almost indefinitely if stored properly. Such storage should be in an airtight container, to prevent oxidation or water vapors mixing, and at a stable cool temperature, to reduce the chance of the container leaking. When gasoline is not stored correctly and is left for a period of time, gums and varnishes may build up and precipitate in the gasoline, causing "stale fuel"

basically being exposed to the atmosphere for a long time will make your fuel stale! its the better parts of the fuel (benzine and tolulene) "evaproating" that ruin petrol

octane rating can be confusing, i cant explain it properly so... wikipedia will for me LOL
Research Octane Number (RON)
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.

[edit] Motor Octane Number (MON)
There is another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON), or the aviation lean octane rating, which is a better measure of how the fuel behaves when under load as it is done at 900 rpm instead of the 600 rpm of the RON[2][3]. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, a higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern gasoline will be about 8 to 10 points lower than the RON. Normally, fuel specifications require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.[citation needed]

[edit] Anti-Knock Index (AKI)
In most countries, including all of those of Australia and Europe the "headline" octane rating shown on the pump is the RON, but in Canada, the United States and some other countries, like Brazil[4], the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI, and often written on pumps as (R+M)/2). It may also sometimes be called the Road Octane Number (RdON), Pump Octane Number (PON), or (R+M)/2.

[edit] Difference between RON and AKI
Because of the 8 to 10 point difference noted above, the octane rating shown in the United States is 4 to 5 points lower than the rating shown elsewhere in the world for the same fuel. See the table in the following section for a comparison


i really should ask my bosses if they can line up a tour of the refinery for me one day... im sure i could learn quite a bit from it

*agent puts on some nomex overalls in hope of this ever happening*


Pip
almost lakes!! it doesnt quite loose octane because its poured or pumped!
Almost Agent!! The word you were both looking for is: "lose".

 :rolleyes:



Offline Lakes

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i only learnt that from an industial chemist i raced with he used to mix his own fuel told me every time you pour or pump fuel it looses some octaine. specialised race fuel surplier told me the same.
but for the average motorist would not matter.
now tell me about Nitro BP dopn't make that
cheers


Offline agentr31

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almost lakes!! it doesnt quite loose octane because its poured or pumped!
Almost Agent!! The word you were both looking for is: "lose".

hahahaha owned!!!

yer i guess lakes! because you are mixing air into it, and thats bad for fuel! (as we both know)

nitro!!! what do you race? im interested!!!!

 :rolleyes:




Offline Lakes

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almost lakes!! it doesnt quite loose octane because its poured or pumped!
Almost Agent!! The word you were both looking for is: "lose".

hahahaha owned!!!

yer i guess lakes! because you are mixing air into it, and thats bad for fuel! (as we both know)

nitro!!! what do you race? im interested!!!!

 :rolleyes:




Ha ha Pip got us.
Ian i don't race Nitro but some of my close friends race Nitro Top Bikes, it is expencive and a lot of hard work not to mention controling them. but i love going to the track


Offline agentr31

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ohh yeah! thats a rich mans sport!


Offline saunaman

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In mid-july I am going to put my i30cw into a real test - heading to a holiday drive to Lapland and northern Norway. That'll make about 3000km in 6 days, longest single distance driven in a day will be 850 km from southern Finland to the arctic circle.

It will be interesting to see how the consumption figures develop during the trip. I believe that especially the driving in norwegian fjells and mountains will take the figures up, otherwise I do expect record-low numbers 5.0 or less.

It's been a while since my last visit to this forum, so I have a bit catching-up to do... But anyway, I did that trip I advertised above, somewhat 2900 kms alltogether.

The average diesel consumption figure for the whole trip was 4.8 l/100km, but for my surprise I got the lowest figures whilst driving in the northern side of arctic circle - stunning 3.8 l/100km. I would have expected that going hills up and down would have taken the figures up, but quite the opposite happened.

I was able to keep good average speed and stressless driving whilst up in the north. Coming down to south took the figures back up to my regular level, driving here is more "busy" and requires frequent slow-downs and accelerations...

At the moment I've got 15 500 km on the clock, the car works still like a charm.




Offline Dazzler

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Good average for that type of terrain saunaman .. I have traded mine on a larger car a Toyota Camry Hybrid and I use about 1 LPH more on average but it seems to be similar to the i30 CRDi as to what makes it go up and down (but sometimes no rhyme or reason..) :rolleyes:
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Offline Mutley

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Well for the first time my computer calculated correctly. It said 5.6L/100km and thats exactly what I got. Of course it took 14500kms to get there though!

Also found out in order to get 4.7L/100km or around that you need an average speed of above 70km/hr. About 68km/hr will get about 5L/100km.

Service on Monday 4th Oct......5months after picking it up :)


Offline agentr31

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thats some deacent KM's you have done there broham!


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