i30 Owners Club

GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => DIESEL => Topic started by: alex2jz on November 24, 2016, 20:13:31

Title: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 24, 2016, 20:13:31: Hi fellas,

From 2014 to 2016 i've been the proud owner of Ceed 1.6 GDi. I loved a lot and wanting some more torque, i went for a brand new Ceed 1.6 CRDI 136 Euro 6.

The car was absolutely amazing when i picked it off. The engine was extremely quiet and vibration free, i almost thought it was a petrol and not a diesel.

After about 150kms after a powerful burning smell in the car, the engine started tapping intermittently. Now, after 2800km and two visits to the dealer, that solved nothing (no errors, no codes, no nothing):

- The engine sounds awful most of the time, especially at cold starts in the cold weather - it taps at idle until it reaches operating temp, then it taps during driving
- Average FC went down the drain since around 500kms on the clock
- Lately it feels kind of sluggish
- On cold starts the exhaust smells extremely bad (kind of an old diesel truck), though the car itself doesn't smoke
- Sometimes i can hear a fan running for no reason ( AC is off, not DPF regen because it's continuous)

Tried:

- Got fuel from 3 places - no changes
- Did an oil change - no changes
- Software check at the dealer - no new software version, no codes, injectors seem fine

I do around 70% highway driving. So no, it's probably not the DPF.

Here's a video of the sound (this particular video was filmed during or after a DPF regen - i could smell it):

:link: 1.6 CRDi engine tapping or knocking - YouTube (https://youtu.be/1jYk9xaHJ-w)

Any ideas fellas ? My previous awesome experience with the other Ceed is slowly dying on me.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Phil №❶ on November 24, 2016, 21:34:33: Sounds nice to me. Naturally the engine will change as it begins to wear in. If you're really certain that it is too noisy, I can only suggest looking at the valve train for any clearance issues.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Paolo5 on November 25, 2016, 05:48:57: The engine in my 2010 diesel sounds like that. It always has.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 25, 2016, 07:10:02: You guys really make me feel like i'm crazy :))

I have owned two diesel engines so far both PSA : 1.6 HDi 110 and 1.6 BlueHDi 120 and neither of them had this knocking/tapping sound. What i found strange is that the car was awesome in the first 150kms. Then it gradually started tapping and the overall refinement and FC went down. There are times when it sounds like a bag full of rocks/nails. Although vibrations are still almost in-existent.

I've seen threads on this forum with owners having the same issues with the U2 engine, and never managed to get them addressed. Personally, i still don't think that these sounds are normal for a 100% healthy diesel engine.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: tw2005 on November 25, 2016, 07:54:03: wish mine was that quiet
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Shambles on November 25, 2016, 09:22:24: :whsaid:

My 2014 GD2 (Hyundai, not Kia :P) was immensely quiet when brand new. Only took a couple of hundred miles to get all rattly, like a bag of chisels.

Always thought that was normal though...
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 25, 2016, 09:42:17: Hmmm... based on your feedback I'm starting to think that maybe it's a characteristic of these engines ? They lose the new refinement very quickly and this is the usual way they function? Which is such a pity, because it had the potential to be the most refined diesel engine ever.

The PSA 1.6 BlueHDI engine has a lot of vibration and overall more industrial feeling compared to the CRDi engine, but they sound a lot smoother at cold idle and during acceleration. The 1.6 CRDi sounds knackered in those conditions, when the issue manifests. Although, sometimes it taps badly, sometimes less (almost gone) and makes it a joy to drive. Very strange !
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: xiziz on November 25, 2016, 11:42:52: Sounds normal to me too. I cant hear it in the cabin though. As far as I know its part of the lubrication process, different engine oil might reduce the noise. Its usually worse right after service, when the oil is new. In older engines this sound was usually masked behind other engine noise, new ones are so quiet that you can hear it.

Nothing to worry about though. :)

FC is probably inconsequent because its a new engine, mine stabilized around 12000km.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Phil №❶ on November 25, 2016, 11:45:19: If you say that FC and performance have altered, a valve not fully opening or something like that, would produce similar results. Highly unlikely as the Diesel engine is almost bulletproof but you may have an exception. It's even possible that a spring has snapped or weakened.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 25, 2016, 13:12:25: Quote from: xiziz on November 25, 2016, 11:42:52
Sounds normal to me too. I cant hear it in the cabin though. As far as I know its part of the lubrication process, different engine oil might reduce the noise. Its usually worse right after service, when the oil is new. In older engines this sound was usually masked behind other engine noise, new ones are so quiet that you can hear it.

Nothing to worry about though. :)

FC is probably inconsequent because its a new engine, mine stabilized around 12000km.
It can be heard in the cabin as well. As a rapid "tap, tap tap" sound. I don't personally think it's normal lubrication sound as it wasn't present in the first 150kms, and then it only gradually got worse. Also it varies in intensity and the overall refinement of the engine isn't the same.

I have already changed the original oil, and it actually ran great immediately after the oil change. The returned to it's old habits.

From what i can personally hear, it seems to be something unrelated to engine internals. More like injector, timing, fuel pump etc. But nothing comes up on the software and there are no drive ability issues, so it's going to be tricky to isolate.

Quote from: Phil №❶ on November 25, 2016, 11:45:19
If you say that FC and performance have altered, a valve not fully opening or something like that, would produce similar results. Highly unlikely as the Diesel engine is almost bulletproof but you may have an exception. It's even possible that a spring has snapped or weakened.

If that would be the case, it's going to be tricky to have it fixed unless something extreme happens - drive-ability issues, CELs etc
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: eye30 on November 25, 2016, 17:44:23: Still under warranty so why not book it in and see what the service guys say
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 25, 2016, 19:39:01: Quote from: eye30 on November 25, 2016, 17:44:23
Still under warranty so why not book it in and see what the service guys say

I did. No issues found according to them ... Guess i'll just have to wait and see how this develops.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Phil №❶ on November 26, 2016, 01:00:26: I would still recommend that the valve cover be removed just to allow inspection of the valve train. There are 16 valves in this engine.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: The Gonz on November 26, 2016, 02:23:53: Brings to mind "stim wow" :lol:

:link: 55 Days at Peking (1963) - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056800/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 26, 2016, 19:53:44: By looking at some videos on youtube, i cam across some ones showing camshaft failures on TDI engines. I think it kind of sounds similar, although much,much worse than the sound in my video. Location where the sounds is coming from is also similar:

:link: TDI Camshaft failure 2006 Jetta BRM PD - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDWDgbH_n9E)
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: nzenigma on November 26, 2016, 21:56:24: The sound on your first video is quite similar to other i30 diesels. However, I cant be too exact because the video sound may cause it to be less or exaggerated.
If you have a broken component, such as a valve spring etc , typically the sound will be there all the time and will be different to the other 15 valves or 3 cylinders.
I have found that diesel noise will increase if the suction valve/pressure regulator on the fuel pump is faulty and too much fuel is being delivered. This may also account for your increased FC.
That said, maybe your injectors have 'bedded in'. Also check common rail pressure , there is a sensor on it, the rail sensor and pump regulator 'talk' to each other via the ECU.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: elantraelite on November 27, 2016, 07:39:26: Our 2014 GD 1.6 CRDi is still very quiet. It has its odd rough start up, but we probably don't think anything of it when it's compared to my 09 FD CRDi, although I think that it's still smooth with 160,000km on the clock

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: nzenigma on November 27, 2016, 20:22:11: I notice that there a number of online rants about Common rail diesels becoming noisy. The culprit appears to be the injectors.
As I said above 'bedding in', for want of a better word.
:link: What about injector knock/rattle? - Berrima Diesel Service (http://www.berrimadiesel.com/home/what-about-injectors-rattle/)
A word of caution- berrimadiesel admits that this is his best theory, not evidence based.

It is apparent that some i30 owners have different experience to others. Maybe the variable quality of the injectors is an issue. However, I doubt that Bosch will admit that their product quality changes from Monday to Friday.

In the case of the Creed, maybe they have produced a retro model with that distinctive Kia sound. :evil: Ooops Sorry.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: diesel1984 on November 29, 2016, 09:00:38: This sound from video is not normal for this engine.

Tapping sound is probably coming from injector cooper washer not sealing correctly and loosing some compression around.
You can test it by spraying some soapy water around injector body when engine is idling.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on November 29, 2016, 09:29:01: Quote from: diesel1984 on November 29, 2016, 09:00:38
This sound from video is not normal for this engine.

Tapping sound is probably coming from injector cooper washer not sealing correctly and loosing some compression around.
You can test it by spraying some soapy water around injector body when engine is idling.

Thanks for the answer !

Shouldn't an injector leak cause starting issues, poor idle, surging etc ? I have none of these symptoms. Also i have attached the results of the injector check i did at around 800km ODO (has got worse since then)
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on December 02, 2016, 16:35:52: I have briefly checked the injectors with engine cover off and it seeing other videos with leaking injectors on YT i don't think the injectors have a seal issue. Also the sound doesn't appear to be coming from the injectors at all. More from the right-upper side of the engine bay. Two injectors seem to have a bit of something that looks like fuel vapor next to them, but from what i saw the sound didn't come from them and they would not blow air at all, indicating that the seals are good.

Now it taps worse on cold idle. It's a metallic like tap tap tap, that goes away on idle when the engine reaches operating temperature. Driving me crazy !

:link: WP 20161202 17 15 44 Pro - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2lLeuwMDQ)

:link: Injector picture (http://imgur.com/a/C9cx4)
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: nzenigma on December 02, 2016, 21:46:45: Can only give you some observations. Your readout at 800km is showing a lower average for #3 injector while other three injectors are identical . :confused: Has this changed.
The diesel 'spill' near 2 & 3 is curious given the age of the car. Not alarming or evidence of a leak. I assume that it is diesel.

So tapping on the right side ( to be clear, the drivers side???) of the engine bay could be coming from timing gear , air cond compressor, alternator etc. Don't forget belt and belt tensioner.

To pin-point the item, take off the engine cover and idle the engine; now use your stethoscope .
It is possible that you are not a doctor, :'( so instead , use a short length of rubber tube ( 20mm diameter is good). Hold one end to ear and move the other end over various areas of the engine until you find the culprit.
Its an old outback trick that Ive used for years.
100% success usually and mostly always never fails!! :D
good luck :)

Be careful of rotating parts and electrical connections
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Dazzler on December 02, 2016, 23:32:58: Thanks Gary, You are a handy guy to have around! :goodjob:
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: The Gonz on December 03, 2016, 04:12:23: Quote from: nzenigma on December 02, 2016, 21:46:45
100% success usually and mostly always never fails!! :D
:lol:
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: nzenigma on December 03, 2016, 05:45:42: Quote from: Dazzler on December 02, 2016, 23:32:58
Thanks Gary, You are a handy guy to have around! :goodjob:
Now I remember; that's what my wife once said ...when I gave her an i30. :cool:
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: Dazzler on December 03, 2016, 06:00:23: :D
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on December 03, 2016, 07:42:16: Quote from: nzenigma on December 02, 2016, 21:46:45
Can only give you some observations. Your readout at 800km is showing a lower average for #3 injector while other three injectors are identical . :confused: Has this changed.
The diesel 'spill' near 2 & 3 is curious given the age of the car. Not alarming or evidence of a leak. I assume that it is diesel.

So tapping on the right side ( to be clear, the drivers side???) of the engine bay could be coming from timing gear , air cond compressor, alternator etc. Don't forget belt and belt tensioner.

To pin-point the item, take off the engine cover and idle the engine; now use your stethoscope .
It is possible that you are not a doctor, :'( so instead , use a short length of rubber tube ( 20mm diameter is good). Hold one end to ear and move the other end over various areas of the engine until you find the culprit.
Its an old outback trick that Ive used for years.
100% success usually and mostly always never fails!! :D
good luck :)

Hi ! Great tips mate. However :), the driver side in my country is on the battery/Air filter side. So now i'm thinking it's either coming from inside the engine (bad), or maybe from the fuel pump which is on that side from my experience. In the last video i made they kind of were two distinct sounds apparently coming from 2 locations, which kind of makes me even more confused (tapping wasn't at it's worse either because temperature was around 10C). I guess i have to keep investigating and hope something gives. The car drivers very well in general, i think the lack of power was just in my head, because in the last couple of days it was pulling amazingly.

Regarding the average on injector #3, it only reads a different value at the begining of the scan, maybe that's an error reading it. I'll do another injector check i guess to see if anything changed.

:link: vlc record 2016 12 03 09h33m46s WP 20161201 11 46 07 Pro mp4 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3f5FQ_3XPk)
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: nzenigma on December 03, 2016, 20:56:08: Ok left hand drive. :) Would be helpful if you add your location to your profile.

The sound on your video sounds like the average Hyundai CRD. I can get the same sound variations moving a microphone over my FD motor or others that I work on.
But, the human ear is more selective so you could be picking up an unusual sound.
To be specific, take my advice and use the 'stethoscope'.
Good luck :)
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: alex2jz on December 05, 2016, 18:26:12: Thanks for the suggestions mate !

Car ran great today, minimal tapping when cold and practically no tapping afterwards. Also the car was pulling fantastically, like it had a remap lol

From this point, i will just have to wait and see how this develops, it's also winter and i won't be going to dealer until spring.

Keep you updated.
Title: Re: 1.6 CRDI tapping/knocking. Any ideas ?
Post by: nzenigma on December 05, 2016, 20:23:22: :) No problem. Hopefully it is a glitch that has corrected itself. If I was a gambler, I would wager that you had a dodgy injector. Don't leave home without your rubber tube. :)
Cheers