Post by: raypinkerton on August 31, 2016, 05:38:15
I come seeking assistance again. My 2008 CRDi SLX Auto had been getting hard to start recently. It does this when its due for a service so I was not particularly concerned. Took it in to the local dealer for the 120K service and found after the service it was just as hard or even harder to start.
Starting involves cranking the engine, pumping the throttle madly and then holding it flat to the floor. After about 10 to 15 second of cranking it will cough and then fire. It runs quite rough for a few second and will not idle until its run for 10 to 15 seconds. After that it idles fine while I let it heat up. Restarting the car is not a problem when its hot or even up to 3 or 4 hours after using it. If I drive to work and leave it all day then it's a repeat of the morning experience.
Have taken it back to the dealer who has had it for two days and can't figure out what's wrong. They told me yesterday they have not been able to get it started. Just called them and they have still not been able to get it to start but their top tech thinks it needs the Fuel Rail Regulator, Y31400-2A410. Unfortunately this is not a part which can be purchased individually, I have to buy the complete fuel rail "package" which when fitted (with rebuilt injectors) is going to cost around $5,000. I also have to wait several weeks for the parts to come from Korea.
From reading up on the forum here I figured the problem was most likely fuel pressure related with pressure bleeding away so maybe the regulator is the problem. Anybody else had trouble with this component?
Can anybody suggest steps or tests I can do myself to try and get to the bottom of what is going on? I'm in Brisbane if anybody can suggest some one for a second opinion?
Thanks everyone,
Ray
Post by: eye30 on August 31, 2016, 09:20:37
Akso, have they ruled out fuel starvation such as blocked line or pump not working?
Post by: Dazzler on August 31, 2016, 09:24:49
Post by: Asterix on August 31, 2016, 09:28:19
(Why not just change everything between the bumpers then they're safe..) :confused:
Post by: Phil №❶ on August 31, 2016, 10:00:00
The car is fuel injected so don't pump the throttle, ever :exclaim:
You have a glow plug indicator on the dash, wait for that to extinguish, then begin cranking with no foot on the throttle. If working properly, it should start.
As your car is auto, have they checked the starting inhibitor which only permits starting in P or N.
I can't figure out how they would arrive at the fuel rail, it's just a high pressure pipe isn't it.
Post by: raypinkerton on August 31, 2016, 10:36:11
Your technique for Diesel starting is completely wrong.
The car is fuel injected so don't pump the throttle, ever :exclaim:
Thanks Phil,
I'll consider my wrist slapped and promise to improve my technique :D. I must have been doing something right as I did get it started every day.
You have a glow plug indicator on the dash, wait for that to extinguish, then begin cranking with no foot on the throttle. If working properly, it should start.
My glow plug is on for only a second, I've tried cycling back and forwards running the glow plug over and over but it made not one bit of difference. I've not been able to start the car unless it's given plentry of throttle.
As your car is auto, have they checked the starting inhibitor which only permits starting in P or N.Don't think they have thought of the inhibitor, I'll mention that, thanks.
I can't figure out how they would arrive at the fuel rail, it's just a high pressure pipe isn't it.
Regarding the rail, they told me the fuel regulator was not available as a separate part and I had to replace the complete rail assembly for $2,910.00 plus all the ancillary washers and gaskets plus the injector rebuilds, grand total $5,000.
Sounds like fuel starvation, but replacing the complete rail, isn't that too much..?Hi Asterix, Exactly what I said, I putter around most of the time but I have noticed if I put my foot down it struggles to perk up and respond which I guess is another sign of a fuel issue. Mechanic explained the fuel pressure regulator controls the overall pressure in the system by determining what it holds back in the rail and what it allows to return to the tank. But equally you'd think the fuel pump could have an input in that as well right?. Is there any sort of fuel pressure monitoring for the engine management? The diagnostic tests they have been doing indicate the rail is not coming up to full pressure and the pressure that is there drops away as soon as the pump stops.
(Why not just change everything between the bumpers then they're safe..) :confused:
Sorry to her that. Definitely need a second opinion! Hopefully someone comes up with options and suggestions. :fingers:Cheers Dazzler
Was fuel filter replaced at service?Hi eye30, Yes fuel filter was changed as part of the 120K service, one of the reasons it was $600+ I was told. I asked why the starting was worse after the service and there was no answer. Not sure if they've done a flow test but the pump must be able to play as big a part as the regulator in the final pressure, I'll talk to them about that as well, thanks.
Akso, have they ruled out fuel starvation such as blocked line or pump not working?
Post by: Phil №❶ on August 31, 2016, 10:49:03
Post by: asathorny on August 31, 2016, 12:19:04
I said, you've been flooding the carb every time.
I then felt smug for a short while :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: Phil №❶ on August 31, 2016, 12:21:33
Post by: elantraelite on August 31, 2016, 13:37:52
I had my injectors tested by them and after 130,000km were found to be running perfectly.
My issue was rough start. But the car was never hard to start. Still have the issue.
Could it be a glow plug issue?
Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
Post by: tohis on August 31, 2016, 17:09:25
Post by: eye30 on August 31, 2016, 20:08:22
I wasn't telling you off, (we're a friendly forum), it's just that your technique is usually used only on petrol engines. Wasn't sure if you knew the difference. :DI never pump on my petrol nor did i when i had diesel..
I just depress clutch and turn the key
Post by: Gof on September 01, 2016, 11:21:37
If that works and you can't locate the problem the old fashioned fix is to put an electric fuel pump on the line between the tank and filter and wire it to the ignition.
Post by: nzenigma on September 04, 2016, 02:23:16
Have taken it back to the dealer who has had it for two days and can't figure out what's wrong. They told me yesterday they have not been able to get it started. Just called them and they have still not been able to get it to start but their top tech thinks it needs the Fuel Rail Regulator, Y31400-2A410. Unfortunately this is not a part which can be purchased individually, I have to buy the complete fuel rail "package" which when fitted (with rebuilt injectors) is going to cost around $5,000.Thanks everyone,
Ray
Wait a minute buddy, Time to escape from that :twisted: dealer. We keep ranting about them...do it. :crazy1:
The fuel rail pressure sensor ( regulator) simply unscrews from the fuel rail. To remove and replace it is a 30 second job. If it is part of the rail, why does he quote that individual part number? :head_knock:
The starting advice already given here is correct. Don't pump accelerator and allow glow plugs time to work etc.
You don't state how many Kms the car has done, but if it runs normally once you start, I cant see a major operation being needed.
I work on this model i30 quite often. They are extremely efficient and reliable, their only drawback is their dealership workshops. :disapp:
Do this for starters,
1. find a non-rapist mechanic :).
2. before starting check the fuel feed to the fuel pump. If it is full of air you may have a leak, possibly around the fuel filter ( firewall passenger side).
3. As a precaution, Check fuel is clean and free of water. Take sample from top filter in a clear glass and hold to the light.
4. Suction valve on top of fuel pump may be at fault ( fairly rare on the i30)
5. Get the stated rail sensor (new or second hand from a wrecker) .
Good luck
Post by: nzenigma on September 04, 2016, 23:28:28
This is the i30 fuel rail sensor.
:link: NEW GENUINE BOSCH FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 0281002863 HYUNDAI KIA NEW HOLLAND | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-BOSCH-FUEL-PRESSURE-SENSOR-0281002863-HYUNDAI-KIA-NEW-HOLLAND-/151932563076)
as you can see it is separate to the fuel rail. The rail is not made by Bosch; however the "you need to buy the whole rail" stunt is used by several dealerships other than Hy.
Burson will probably be able to supply here in Briz.
Having re-read your first post, I would be looking for fuel shortage eg. air in line/ cracked fuel hose etc.
BUT I don't understand why you are going to the dealer when your car is no longer under warranty. :Shocked:
To generalise,
Dealerships prosper from rewards from the maker due to high volume sales. To do this they will cut margins (profit) to beat off competitors. Their big reward comes from continued servicing and repairs during the warranty period :happydance: $$$$$.
Post by: raypinkerton on September 13, 2016, 11:16:36
Time for an update.
Dealer's head technical guy had told me the fuel system in the i30 is a Delphi system in Australia so I had been looking for information on this and not getting far.
Ended up booking it in with a diesel specialist on north side of Brisbane who had the car for the day and then phoned me to say they could not find a problem. I had made it clear the problem was cold starting when I booked it in but ended up having to leave the car over night so they could see it cold. They could not identify the root of the problem but started talking about seals and replacing hoses and O rings as they could see the rail fuel pressure going up and down they said. They did confirm the fuel system is Bosch not Delphi so I don't know what the dealers guy was looking at. I've always though you got better servicing from the dealer as their guys are Hyundai trained but I've had that illusion well and truly shattered.
Was not too impressed by the feedback from this company as they seems to know no more than the dealer. Asked around at work for recommendations, sorry elantraelite had not seem your posting at this time. Was referred to a local repairer by my boss who has 8 cars in his family that all go to the one shop. Did a little name dropping with the owner who was good enough to say diesels are not their specialty and he referred me to the company he sends his diesel work to down at Springwood.
Spoke to the springwood company while the car was still at northside guys and as soon as I told them the symptoms he guy said yup that will be bad glow plugs, had an i30 in last week with the same problem so I booked an appointment, had to wait over a week to get in. Suggested glow plugs this to northside guys who still had the car and they said the same as the dealer, will not be that, don't need glow plugs in Queensland. Paid their inspection fee and retrieved my car with quotes for thousands of dollars worth of work.
Dropped the car off last night to the springwood company, they called early afternoon, all four glow plugs dead. Gave the go ahead for the repair and have just had the car delivered back to me by a friend who lives close to the company.
I'm about to drive it home so will let you know how it all goes, fingers crossed it's all good now. Tomorrow morning will be the teller.
Cost of the repair was $450. $250 inspection and diagnostics, $200 for the plugs. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow morning :-). Thanks to all those who offered support and suggestions.
Post by: raypinkerton on September 13, 2016, 11:35:47
This is the i30 fuel rail sensor.
:link: NEW GENUINE BOSCH FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 0281002863 HYUNDAI KIA NEW HOLLAND | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-BOSCH-FUEL-PRESSURE-SENSOR-0281002863-HYUNDAI-KIA-NEW-HOLLAND-/151932563076)
Thank you for your very informative posts. The dealer told me they checked the fuel when they had the car and it was fine. I'd not filled up since.
BUT I don't understand why you are going to the dealer when your car is no longer under warranty. :Shocked:
To generalise,
Dealerships prosper from rewards from the maker due to high volume sales. To do this they will cut margins (profit) to beat off competitors. Their big reward comes from continued servicing and repairs during the warranty period :happydance: $$$$$.
Yes I think I've been cured of my addiction to the "better" servicing I though I was getting at the dealer. In your experience what is a reasonable life expectancy for the 1.6 CRDi engine with mostly city use? I have been very happy with my car up until this event, my faith has been somewhat restored now I found somebody who seems to know what they were talking about.
Post by: Phil №❶ on September 13, 2016, 11:37:35
Post by: Dazzler on September 13, 2016, 11:41:35
Post by: eye30 on September 13, 2016, 17:03:06
Shouldn't that have been the first option by all garages.
....especially the dealer who are supposed to be the experts for their brand
Sent from my SM-G130HN using Tapatalk
Post by: eye30 on September 13, 2016, 17:09:41
You say it had just haf 120k service.
Are the glow plugs a replace item on thiss service?
If not at what service were/are they due for replacement?
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Post by: Asterix on September 13, 2016, 17:30:45
Just read your first post on this.
You say it had just haf 120k service.
Are the glow plugs a replace item on thiss service?
If not at what service were/are they due for replacement?
Sent from my SM-G130HN using Tapatalk
There's no intervals for replacing glow plugs. Only renew when bad.
Unfortunately Hyundai's CRDi engine is hard on the glow plugs, but no worry, they're easy to replace...... most times :P
Post by: nzenigma on September 13, 2016, 21:40:52
This is the i30 fuel rail sensor.
:link: NEW GENUINE BOSCH FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 0281002863 HYUNDAI KIA NEW HOLLAND | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-GENUINE-BOSCH-FUEL-PRESSURE-SENSOR-0281002863-HYUNDAI-KIA-NEW-HOLLAND-/151932563076)
Thank you for your very informative posts. The dealer told me they checked the fuel when they had the car and it was fine. I'd not filled up since.BUT I don't understand why you are going to the dealer when your car is no longer under warranty. :Shocked:
To generalise,
Dealerships prosper from rewards from the maker due to high volume sales. To do this they will cut margins (profit) to beat off competitors. Their big reward comes from continued servicing and repairs during the warranty period :happydance: $$$$$.
Yes I think I've been cured of my addiction to the "better" servicing I though I was getting at the dealer. In your experience what is a reasonable life expectancy for the 1.6 CRDi engine with mostly city use? I have been very happy with my car up until this event, my faith has been somewhat restored now I found somebody who seems to know what they were talking about.
Hi Ray, Thanks for the thanks, no problem, glad to see some good results coming your way. :goodjob2:
Many of the early (2008) CRDi vehicles that I have worked on have over 250,000Km on the clock. Most have done a mix of town and highway to get that high. All were running perfectly. With regular oil and filter changes it would not surprise me if these motors are still reliable at 400,000km plus.
Glow plugs are rarely an issue here in warm Queensland; and especially in CRDi motors. The high rail pressure almost makes them redundant.
Cheers G :)
Post by: cleid on September 13, 2016, 22:36:09
Post by: XinZhao on September 15, 2016, 06:44:19
Unfortunately Hyundai's CRDi engine is hard on the glow plugs, but no worry, they're easy to replace...... most timeswhat does that mean? Do the glow plugs run even after the engine started? I read about them staying on for several minutes to warm the engine ASAP.
Post by: nzenigma on September 15, 2016, 07:06:49
Yes, will operate for while, it is dependant on coolant temperature.Unfortunately Hyundai's CRDi engine is hard on the glow plugs, but no worry, they're easy to replace...... most timeswhat does that mean? Do the glow plugs run even after the engine started? I read about them staying on for several minutes to warm the engine ASAP.
I assume that they will have greater time on in the uninhabitable icebound countries. :P
Post by: raypinkerton on September 15, 2016, 07:11:54
Well guess what, its perfect. So nice to turn the key and have it start after one crank. You guys are right, its it a trap I've fallen into myself, thinking the problem is complex and going looking for a complex solution. Think I'll go see the dealer personally and convey the news, should be good for a laugh, even if it was at my expense.
Now I have to sort out the blower fan and it will all be working perfectly.
So the company who fixed the problem, Diesel Australia +61 7 3808 6988, Slacks Creek QLD. Highly recommended.
Thanks again guys.
Post by: tw2005 on September 16, 2016, 09:16:54
This is what i found looking up the part numbers and I found some of the thread info confusing as the OP originally mentioned pressure regulator and then later we're talking about pressure sensor.
Going on the dealer quoted Fuel rail 31400-2A410 this should make this car a pre 8 Aug 2008 production as after this I see 31400-2A420.
This is the 31400-2A410 rail
(https://img.plentycar.ru/img/600/pictures_ppp_mobis_314002A410.jpg)
This is the regulator 314022A400
(http://partsbos.com/1749-thickbox_leometr/bosch-0281002507-0281002625-45962073F-314022A400.jpg)
This is the sensor 314014A400
(http://partsbos.com/2093-large_leometr/bosch-0281002863-314014A400-314022f000.jpg)
after 08 Aug 2008
The rail 31400-2A420 which no longer has the regulator fitted to it which mine has.
(http://www.skfoto.lt/ebaylisting/items3/1235306.jpg)
Post by: Dazzler on September 16, 2016, 09:44:43
Post by: tw2005 on September 16, 2016, 09:53:35
Tw2005 I would go with the glow plugs 1st.
Agreed, it runs perfect just cranks a few secs longer dead cold. Is it the glows that can seize in the head? That's my main concern other wise a set can be had for $100 which I would not mind as a preventative measure.
Post by: Dazzler on September 16, 2016, 12:29:56
Tw2005 I would go with the glow plugs 1st.
Agreed, it runs perfect just cranks a few secs longer dead cold. Is it the glows that can seize in the head? That's my main concern other wise a set can be had for $100 which I would not mind as a preventative measure.
Our esteemed Moderator Asterix had the unfortunate situation where they couldn't get 2 of his glow plugs out , but this is VERY rare... :Touch:
Post by: nzenigma on September 16, 2016, 21:35:07
Tw2005 I would go with the glow plugs 1st.
Agreed, it runs perfect just cranks a few secs longer dead cold. Is it the glows that can seize in the head? That's my main concern other wise a set can be had for $100 which I would not mind as a preventative measure.
Try here. $42.00 includes postage from Germany.
:link: 4 PCS YOU S Original Glow Plugs FOR Hyundai I30 FD 1 6 Crdi 66 85 94 KW NEW | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/4-pcs-YOU-S-Original-Glow-plugs-for-HYUNDAI-i30-FD-1-6-CRDI-66-85-94-KW-NEW-/221999668026?hash=item33b0361b3a:g:UOAAAOSwT5tWQlRg)
Post by: tohis on September 17, 2016, 19:26:46
Hi Guys,
Well guess what, its perfect. So nice to turn the key and have it start after one crank. You guys are right, its it a trap I've fallen into myself, thinking the problem is complex and going looking for a complex solution. Think I'll go see the dealer personally and convey the news, should be good for a laugh, even if it was at my expense.
:goodjob2: :goodjob:
In your situation I'd also go to the first dealer giving a third degree about being so incompetent about the issue. Instead of checking the glow plugs, they try to get parts worth $5000 replaced, and ultimately that would not have even fixed the problem! It's bull **** that even in Australia you would never need glowing. Someone could even think that they may have tried to rip you off, and then just replace the glow plugs secretly so the customer would believe the whole thing was necessary.
Post by: nzenigma on September 18, 2016, 00:18:14
.....should be good for a laugh, even if it was at my expense.
...ultimately that would not have even fixed the problem! It's bull **** that even in Australia you would never need glowing. Someone could even think that they may have tried to rip you off, and then just replace the glow plugs secretly so the customer would believe the whole thing was necessary.
Hi Tohis,
Yep you are right about this dealer. And he is not alone.
Since the 1980s, cars have become more and more complex; during this time, the general public developed an aversion to getting their hands dirty, consequently they are now fair game for rogue mechanics and dealerships.
I know some excellent 'old school' mechanics who have a rounded education in most facets of the industry. On the other hand, there are so-called mechanics who have come through dealership training that relies upon a procedural manual on only a few models. In this setting , lateral thinking is not needed or encouraged.
In regard to 'glowing' in Australia, we have a vast temperature range from North to South and also from valley to hilltop. I have had i30s with shot glow plugs here in Brisbane (sub-tropic Oz). Apart from some white smoke from the exhaust, they start as per normal.
Ray lives in a lower part of Brisbane that will be colder in the mornings, but as the question of the smoke was raised early in the discussion and there was no response, I assumed that he did not have that problem.
The "top mechanic" at the dealership should have gone through all the points that the club members had also raised. He was either too thick to do so , and/or had a financial quota to meet.
Post by: Phil №❶ on September 18, 2016, 01:13:35
Post by: nzenigma on September 19, 2016, 02:05:18
It's bull **** that even in Australia you would never need glowing.
1. Have already written about my observations, but.... We need a proper investigation. :idea:
I am currently selling a December 2008 build CRDi i30 manual with 74,000Km on the clock. It was last started exactly one week ago.
2. We need an intrepid investigator.
This morning (19 Sept 2016) I arose at the ungodly hour of 5am, checked the house temperature, it was 12 deg C.
I went down to my #2 garage where said i30 is stored. Here, I suggest the temperature was a few degrees lower . ( Think of a perfect summer day in Finland) :whistler:
3. Indisputable evidence.
I removed the glow plug relay from the car then attempted to start it. The car fired up immediately. There was a wisp of white smoke but no rough idle. Note: I think that the motor may have had a louder than usual detonation knock for a few seconds.
4. Conclusion.
People who have migrated from Europe to Australia enjoy a brilliant climate that is not dominated by rain or glaciers; and they also enjoy longer life, therefore lower running costs, from their i30 glow plugs ( unless they go near a Hyundai dealership.) :snigger:
Cheers All
Post by: Phil №❶ on September 19, 2016, 02:29:04
There are places in Oz that require heating, even at Coober Pedy where it is very hot during the day it can be freezing overnight. Water vapour in the air holds latent heat, so in deserts it can be very cold due to lack of moisture.
Just saying :exclaim:
Post by: nzenigma on September 19, 2016, 03:34:40
Post by: The Gonz on September 19, 2016, 03:48:21
Anyone who suggests longitudes go to the back of the class! :crazy1:
Having lived in Aus, UK, Afghanistan and now Indonesia, and visited 12 other countries, there's no cut'n'dry comparison. I recall cars rusting out very quickly in the UK and Europe from salt on snowy roads and ocean proximity. I recall 45 degree summers in the south of Spain and the same in Melbourne. Southern Afghanistan in the 50s and northern into the negatives.
Einstein's answer would have been a very characteristic "It depends". :lol:
Post by: Phil №❶ on September 19, 2016, 06:44:00
If I offended, I apologise.
Post by: tohis on September 19, 2016, 07:41:34
Suggested glow plugs this to northside guys who still had the car and they said the same as the dealer, will not be that, don't need glow plugs in Queensland.
Post by: nzenigma on September 19, 2016, 09:11:36
Phil just a chuckle mate, no offence. :goodjob2:
The reason I checked my i30 was because I was doubting my own words. I was struck by a comment from a European member who said i30s were hard on glow plugs. Why?
I'm guessing that it is to do with the time coolant reaches the cut-off point for the plugs. These times will probably be longer in the European climate compared to the milder winter experienced in Australia.
So ,blame it on me,
Thanks for your generous replies. :)
Cheers gary
Post by: The Gonz on September 19, 2016, 09:16:39
Post by: Dazzler on September 19, 2016, 10:20:24
Post by: ibrokeit on October 01, 2016, 02:38:51
Hi Guys,
Well guess what, its perfect. So nice to turn the key and have it start after one crank. You guys are right, its it a trap I've fallen into myself, thinking the problem is complex and going looking for a complex solution. Think I'll go see the dealer personally and convey the news, should be good for a laugh, even if it was at my expense.
Now I have to sort out the blower fan and it will all be working perfectly.
So the company who fixed the problem, Diesel Australia +61 7 3808 6988, Slacks Creek QLD. Highly recommended.
Thanks again guys.
Still catching up - so maybe already been done. Has this been added to the dealer/service good/bad boards? Obviously good in this case.
Post by: crazykev on October 21, 2016, 09:34:16
The glow plugs were the problem, apparently on modern diesels the computer cycles them on when the motor on running cold for smoother running. I will be tonging them again at 200k at if they arent going its NGK replacements all the way.
Post by: DenisPC9 on October 24, 2016, 13:04:51
The glow plugs were the problem, apparently on modern diesels the computer cycles them on when the motor on running cold for smoother running. I will be tonging them again at 200k at if they arent going its NGK replacements all the way.
I live 800+ metres above sea level in the northern New England Region and about 3 weeks ago my i30 CrDi was very difficult to cold start it took ~15 cranks to fire up then shot out cloud of whitish vapour. Apart from that it runs like a greased cockroach. It is a 2009 model with 130K and serviced according to the Manufacturer's schedule.
Initially I hopped onto Whirlpool with my problem. I thought it may be the Glowplugs as did several of the others there. One of the fellows mentioned this site, so I hopped over here. It turns out I joined up here back in 2009 :eek:
Cruising through this Thread confirmed what I thought. So I booked it to Milano Motors in Lismore and they replaced the Glowplugs. The new Plugs had a Resistance of 1 Ohm and the old ones was 1200 Ohms. Graham (the Boss) also mentioned that the Glowplugs also fire up during normal running to burn off unburnt gases, see your comment above.
Milano's charged me just under $300.00 for the job. Which, judging by some of the comments posted was very reasonable. They are a good bunch to deal with.
It now fires up on the 2 to 3 crank as it did before,
Post by: The Gonz on October 24, 2016, 14:48:01
Post by: Dazzler on October 24, 2016, 22:37:50