[birdhouse]

Hi Everyone

Just picked up my i30 slx cdri yesterday and thought i'd start the research into improving performance/fuel economy. I have a few questions.

Has any one had any trouble with Exhaust temperture, I heard this can be the only major issue when considering putting in more fuel which it seems these are doing, especially when applying more throttle.

Does anyone recommend some form of dyno tune and diagnostics?

I'm guessing due to increase fuel/power you can gain better fuel economy due needing to use less throttle when driving "normally"?

I ask because i sometimes have a bit of a heavy foot and i want to know if i do want to take it for a fang i know it will be ok. Making sure you idle the car when you stop for a few minutes might be some good advice.

Thank you in advanced.

[TrishCW]

Hi  to the  club,  enjoy your new wheels.

[neoto]

I read this: http://www.endtuning.com/dieseltuningboxes.html and I think I will skip Tuningboxes...

[mattyallatti3013]

yer i have read it but where can we find somewhere to do the ecu mapping

[neoto]

There are chip tuning garages everywhere. Try asking in a more local automotive forum. Here in Slovenia, I know of at least three large garages that are specialized in chip tuning.
But I have second thoughts even on this - my new Hyundai has 5 year warranty. Now, if I do a ECU remap, and anything in the engine fails... i'm on my own. Nobody wants to cover this.

[birdhouse]

Thanks for the welcome and the information.

its seems hard to work out which way to go, i think if we can find someone local who has had the experiance with remapping for a great price we can greatly benifit, as long as hyundai doesn't care when going for a service.

After just skimming thogh that article, can you do both, buy a tuning box and then fine tune with some remapping.

neoto you posted as i was writing this, that is what i'd be worried about. don't really want to have to fork out cash for a new engine because the local guy got a map wrong and says it isn't his fault.

[AlanHo]

I am not a great fan of tuning boxes, chipping or remapping a modern diesel. Whilst they may increase engine power - there is a price to pay in the form of fuel consumption and extra wear and tear on drive train components.

I take the view that the major car manufacturers are in a highly competitive market and they vie to make their product as attractive to the buyer as possible. This includes their chosen blend of performance, running costs and reliability.  The car manufacturers invest billions in engine and power train development to try and outdo their rivals and it is surely in their best interests to squeeze as much performance as is practical out of a vehicle. If Hyundai could increase the engine power and (at the same time) reduce fuel consumption without compromising reliability, safety or refinement - they would.

So along come hordes of so called experts in the tuning trade who offer you more power and better economy without risk. It is a snake oil salesman's illusion - the reality is if you want to make a car accelerate faster, you need more power and this requires more fuel and puts a greater strain on drive train components. It is hardly surprising that this will destroy your warranty.

If you really need a higher performing car - then go up market and buy a more powerful standard vehicle with a warranty.....you know it makes sense.

[birdhouse]

I have absolutely no backing of this at all but interested to know what people think about it.

I have heard that Car manufactures will detune/decrease power output on engines so that the engine can be used for longer. By longer i mean they could bring it out on another car but increase the power to cope with the weight of the vehicle, competition, etc.

Aren't forums like this one around for people to find out information whether it is OK to modify the chosen car or not. They can come on here to find out if the drivetrain and chassis is able to handle an upgrade of turbo, tuningbox, etc.

Also some people might have been semi forced into buying a certain type of car and want to just play around.

I'm new to the whole diesel engine thing so am on here to take as much advice as possible.

[Dazzler]

Hi Birdhouse... I am of a Similar view to Alan .. but some of what you say is valid too IMO...

I think car companies might at times leave a bit in reserve for future upgrades. If you upgrade the performance of a car you really need to improve things like the brakes as well and it can become a vicious (and expensive cycle)
This is one reason companies may compromise with outputs...

If we ever bought another CRDi, I might be tempted to tinker with a tuning box  (they can be removed for servicing time and even some of the cheaper ones have received good reviews on here without causing iny obvious mechanical failures)

[beerman]

I think there are vested interests in detuning an engine somewhat, after all, the new model must boast increased power and fuel economy.

So whats to say that they didn't develop the engine then look around and say this is class leading for now, why not keep the rest up our sleve for the next model.

That said, the reason I haven't got one, is I worry about what they do to the car.....

[Alasama]

Read the article which neoto posted, and got clear aspect about tuning box & remapping. However, I've got a tuning box installed just 1 month ago.   

[neoto]

@Alan: I was looking at the tuning boxes only for one reason - Hyundai offers 1.6 CRDi in three variants - LP (Low power 90PS), HP (High power 116PS) and TP (128 PS). As I read through many topics on LP vs. HP comparison, nobody found any difference in any mechanical component. The only difference is in different ECU mapping. Therefore, the most tempting thought is giving a few bucks for a tuning box that makes LP to behave like a HP.... In theory, this wouldn't harm the engine a bit.
Anyway, there is a cheap power upgrade with tuning boxes on one side and long-term reliability of such systems. These boxes are really easily removed (for the car to be handled by the Hyundai's 5 year warranty), but what if they make the engine to deteriorate after 5 years of usage?

As I see it:

Stock HP	ECU remap of LP to HP	Tuning box on LP
+ more power	+ more power	+ more power
+ 5 year warranty	- no warranty on engine	+ '5 year warranty' (can be removed without a trace)
+ normal op. conditions	o  nearly normal op. conditions	-  pump and injectors overloaded
- price	o  pricier than tuning box	+ cheap
/	/	-  trip computer showing lower figures than in reality

                                             
The decision is not quite as simple... I think I will stay with LP for a while... 

[AlanHo]

When I bought my i30 1.6 CRDi 113 bhp last September there were two engine choices - 89 bhp or 113 bhp.

Comparisons are...

Top Speed (mph) ............ 107 for 89 bhp - 117 for 113 bhp
0 to 60 mph.....................14 secs versus 11.5 seconds
Combined Fuel Economy... 64.2 mpg(4.4l/100km) versus 62.8(4.5)
CO2 Emissions(G/km)...... 115 versus 119

I accept that the mechanical components are probably identical - but it does show that extra power brings with it higher emissions and higher fuel consumption. You can't have one without the other.  Some tuning companies claim to give you dramatic improvements in power accompanied with better fuel econony - frankly, I don't believe it.

A cheap way of improving economy at no cost is to chuck out all the seats (except the drivers), dispose of the spare wheel and tools, rip out all the interior trim, carpets and sound deadening and everything else you can do to minimise the weight of the car.

AlanHO, did you ever put a chip/tuning box etc in your diesel?

I remember i had EXACTLY THE SAME position as you do towards chip tuning before i did it

I was also like why wouldnt factory do it if its good etc etc.
I ask: name just ONE company that will do perfect job for its customer??? There is none! They try to skin you alive!!
1) why does hyundai sells "original" parts so pricey??? Did they made it? NO. They bought it from XYZ company that sells the same thing 2-3-4 times cheaper and just put it in their box. OMG how is that possible since they do things in our interest?
2) If you bought premium or similar equipment package i30, you must have noticed that this is not a good or real leather on the wheel or gear knob! OMG how is that possible hen you paid for it??? I could have easily saved money and get me some real one aftermarket.
And the list goes on and on.

How can you not believe that chip brings better economy?
By bringing more air into cylinder the same quantity of diesel is burnt and result is more hp and what is more important TORQUE.
Once you have more torque your car goes better with less sitting on gas pedal = better economy.
From my example, i couldn't do open road trip to work 360km below 5.2l. I was a bit sad that they provide me with 4,4l open road figures and that it is lie!!
The same conditions, the same driving, after chip tuning i get 4.0-4,2l. 
How do you explain this?

Only time will show what mechanical parts will or will not be damaged due too chip tuning. I was very concerned about that too, ofc.
My service dude told it to me like this and i quote him:
"If you drive it normally with occasional use of extra power absolutely nothing will happen that wouldnt died anyway even without chip.  Also, if you drive like crazy/idiot you will destroy it fast with or without chip!"
Another answer was:
"Lets say that you use that extra power, which is well within tolerances, for 15% of the time in 100.000km time. That equals 15.000km driving with extra power and you in theory reduced the life span of parts like clutch and turbine for 15.000km.  And that is something that is like worst case scenario in theory."

Ofcourse today every kid with laptop can make your car goes better so it is important that it is done properly and not beyond 20% which is considered within very wide factory safety limits.

PS
Saying chip tuning changes figures on trip computer is a bit conspiracy move hehehe. i30 TC is 100% accurate if you do open road trip, in city mine lies for like ~0.7l.
And with my ~175HP i get 6-6.6l average consumption measured from tank to tank (not by trip comp) and with average speed of 35kph in city.

[AlanHo]

At the university I attended - they taught that "Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

This means that to accelerate a car at a certain rate - or to drive it at a certain speed - it requires a commensurate amount of energy. The energy is derived from burning the fuel.

Third party tuning cannot create energy from thin air - it can only use the latent energy that is in the fuel. Faster acceleration = more energy required = more fuel  - whether you have a tuning box or not.

Engine mapping can easily increase engine power and torque - but at the cost of increased fuel consumption. However - I concede that it may be possible to get a marginal increase in the power/fuel consumtion ratio from some tuning boxes - but to me the cost is not worthwhile.


This makes good reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy

To the certain degree you only increase AIR into the mixture, and not fuel.
Factory settings leave certain amount of fuel unburnt and by introducing more air you create better combustion with the same quantity of fuel.
That applies for decent tuning of 20%. Going more then you need to add more fuel to get more hp, no doubt there -> usually then you see a black smoke coming out from exhaust as a show of much more fuel then by default.

But when you stay within 20% only thing you did is raised turbine pressure within acceptable levels = more air compressed. And few other technical details that i don't know how to translate hehe.
And while we are here, lets say turbine has range from 0,1 to 1bar of pressure. Factory puts it at 0.5bar and you have 115hp and long lasting everyday driving. Racing puts them on 1.5bar and you have them like 200kilometers and its a bye bye hehehehe.
Chip tuning puts them on 0.8bar, which is higher then 0,5 but still within 0-1.

Well, about the cost, eh, you should try it out, to see the smile on your face when car goes better  with better economy or stay active here for next few years to see if anything will happen to members with chips boxes etc 

[Dazzler]

No taking anything away from Alan but Xamaxy those last two posts were  for a non Engish speaking person. Really well explained and logical  (makes me want to buy another CRDi and a tuning box) 

[birdhouse]

Wow, thanks everyone for your insight.

It looks like a tuning box seems to be the way to go then. I'm not too concerned about how my car will be in 5/10 years time due to marginal extra wear.

Why i started this thread is to really see what are the real world cons to a tuning box. at the moment yet it seems no one really knows.

For example
are the injectors and pumps overloaded when at full throttle.
is the exhaust too hot and will do damage when you thrash it too much.
Can the gearbox handle the extra torque.

Or is it just that you gain 10%-20% extra power and due to the i30 being made with reasonable quality parts as long as you drive it responsible not only will you not break anything you have gained extra power when you need it and extra economy when you need that.

All makes sense to me no matter how a cheap $100 part does it. The best bit about it is that it can be taken off any time you decide not to use it.

[Alasama]

  Keeping on reading this discussion, I feel better with my tuning box now. I think I know how to treat it to my car. 

p.s. with tuning box installed on my car, just use the fuel consumption figure to compare with the actual fuel which I filled, seems the reading is correct. I can put my mind rested.

[birdhouse]

Hey Alasama

that sounds good, can you tell me what your readings for fuel are, I drive for my job all day and if i can get an extra 100-150kms out of my tank i'll be more then happy.

And if i don't, no big deal.

Thanks

[Alasama]

Hi birdhouse,

The readings depends on driving condition. I recorded some as below.
driving 180km totally on freeway with speed range 105-115km/hr (computer showed average 94km/hr), result 4.2L/100km.
driving 400km freeway & city combined, with speed range 0-90km/hr (computer showed average 36km/hr), result 6.9L/100km.
400km pure city driving (all for going to work and back home), computer showed average 24km/hr), result around 8.5 ~ 8.9L/100km.

as you know, the calculation of computer average figure also contains the situation when you stopped at toll gates and the red lights.

In your point of view, are these numbers fair ?

[Dazzler]

The readings depends on driving condition. I recorded some as below.

 freeway & city combined, with speed range 0-90km/hr (computer showed average 36km/hr), result 6.9L/100km.
 
400km pure city driving (all for going to work and back home), computer showed average 24km/hr), result around 8.5 ~ 8.9L/100km.

In your point of view, are these numbers fair ?

These two figures seem high to me for a 1.6 (Manual?) CRDi ...(under any conditions..)

[Alasama]

   not manual, but 4AT. 
does the poor figures have something to do with scooters? we got so many scooters on road.  :-\

[Dazzler]

  not manual, but 4AT. 
does the poor figures have something to do with scooters? we got so many scooters on road.  :-\

No M8 sorry.. the low figure was so good I thought it was a manual .. that lousy 4 speed auto is to blame (and the scooters...) 

....
For example
are the injectors and pumps overloaded when at full throttle.
is the exhaust too hot and will do damage when you thrash it too much.
Can the gearbox handle the extra torque.
....

Injectors are much more cleaner. Pumps have almost nothing to do with reasonable 20% tuning.
Hyundai gearbox is just fine for that kinda gain. (again, i bet you all i can destroy gearbox of stock/default engine within 2-3months easily, everyone can, so what does tuning differently then? nothing, just makes a job for a lousy driver easier hehehehehe) + friend wanted to try my i30 and its power, and damn, i nearly got heart attack!! he pressed pedal to the floor with slow movement on the clutch. if i didnt scream from pain it would be masacre hahaha he did more damage to the clutch in a single try then i did in 27.000km

Higher temps in exhaust, well, thats completely true! Its a major drawback on modern diesel because you have 2 catalytic converters, possibly outrages stupidity like DPF, 2-3 silencers and engine simply doesnt take gases good enough out. That little gain of 20% puts a little more temp on the turbine and thats the only real problem-ofc only when you push it hard.
Diesel custom exhaust is a MUST HAVE for every diesel engine because it simply gives engine and turbine better longevity by taking hot gases out faster + diesel engine doesnt have sound so you dont wake entire city like petrol exhaust 
(all this about exhaust i heard and read, and i installed turbo-back exhaust few weeks ago removing 1 cat and 2 silencers and damn what a difference, you just look at the gas pedal and car goes, no delay no nothing)

All that talk, bottom line is: if you are good driver with normal use of a car u will like tuning....if you want to race DONT DO IT you'll destroy it faster, buy something like 3.0 TDI with 250hp+  and then race hehehehe

@Alasama
You said 4,2l on freeway 105-115kph. How much was before tuning?

[birdhouse]

The highway one looks good. The other two do look a bit high but depends on style of driving.

I have had the car for less then a week and done just over 600kms sitting at 6.5 with half city half freeway driving. I just filled up to the brim with bp ultimate so ill get a better idea soon.

Sounds like the tuningbox can definitly use more if pushed.

Sorry to hear about your clutch, makes me cringe.... What type of exhaust did you have fitted, was it expensive.

Thanks for all the info, great to have someone who has done the figures. So can we be safe saying tuningbox + exhaust + taking it easy = a much happier i30 driving experience.

If I want to race there are 100s of cars I can think of instead of an I30. Maybe something petrol. 

[Alasama]

Hi Xamaxy,
What you wrote is true. Tunning is good for normal driving, not for racing. There are some owners in my place modifying/changing something like "turbo-back exhaust", I think that's based on the same theory you mentioned.
Btw, before tuning box installed, all the same conditions, it was 4.7L.
Hi birdhouse,
the other two(except freeway), I also admit that's high and try to improve, however still cannot make it. I drive 15km to work everyday, have to go through 34 traffic within this distance. It's not supposed to happen in you place, right ?

@Alasama
You said:
"400km pure city driving (all for going to work and back home), computer showed average 24km/hr), result around 8.5 ~ 8.9L/100km."

I think thats completely normal economy for that average speed + AT.
This is heavy city driving, very low average speed, AT, later you mentioned 15km only to work (diesel takes time to warm up)...worst possible scenario for diesel economy. I believe its the ONLY scenario where petrol engine is in huge advantage over diesel. But once you take open road all economy discussion is over hehe!! 

[birdhouse]

those figures are looking more realistic to me now that my car has crept up to 7.1.

Lots of stop, start, crappy Perth freeway.

Xamaxy, would a tuning box be good in these situations, by good, i mean food on fuel, it seems like it will make it much worse.

mmmmmm

[Lakes]

just thought i would say, i was thinking about a tunning box at one time, but now i have 96,000k up and Betsy still runs sweet, i don't think i would worry. i think Betsy runs harder now than she did when new.
i don't think there is any magic way to get better economy, i think you just have to drive slower.
no one has ever shown any hard facts to prove these tunin g boxs lower fuel useage, they just claim they do, but it's easy to say they improve economy. but come out into the real world and prove it is a different story.
i think fitting an economy gauge like some Hybides use or like the Ford Econo diesel uses would help economy, but only if you use it & then you would find you need to drive slower to keep in the economy zone.
the i30 CRDi 1.6 gets great economy as it comes, if you want high performance you bought the wrong car.
this is just what i think, it does not mean i'm right. A beautiful young Italian Lady told me the other day that her Alfa Romeo was a very good car for people with small feet that wear stilletto's so you can always learn something new. cheers