Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 08:39:05
The car was followed by helicopter which in my mind places many more people at risk over a longer period of time.
I just do not agree with it.
It went for two and a half hours which is absolutely ridiculous and goes to show that these brain dead people still drive like this whether or not they have a police car behind them.
It ended when they crashed into another car and ran off and both were arrested at gunpoint.
Had they been chased by professional police pursuit drivers in police cars it would have been brought to a close much, much sooner.
Two and a half hours of danger is just plain stupid IMO.
And before the argument comes back that no one was injured, that was just pure luck on this occasion.
:link: Police chase from Wangaratta to Melbourne ends in pair's arrest (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-chase-from-wangaratta-to-melbourne-ends-in-pairs-arrest-20160108-gm20ne.html)
Post by: Shambles on January 08, 2016, 08:43:49
Strange
Post by: Dazzler on January 08, 2016, 08:49:17
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 08:50:00
They have bowed to pressure from do-gooders.
It needs someone injured (or worse) as a result of this policy to sue the government for loss.
Post by: Surferdude on January 08, 2016, 09:13:37
Post by: Phil №❶ on January 08, 2016, 09:26:17
Don't get me wrong, I agree that these idiots should be shut down ASAP using the correct resources. While the general public should never be involved, they are in fact involved, because they're on the road and in danger when close to these hoons, so on that basis, complete roadblocks using the public vehicles to form part of the block and police cars at the rear as a first line attack. If the road is completely blocked and footpaths as well, they have no where to go. Surround and apprehend.
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 09:36:18
Sit in their cars and wait for the bang?
Or stand on the footpath and wait to get cleaned up? :undecided:
Post by: FatBoy on January 08, 2016, 09:39:21
Well, people have been injured & killed as a result of pursuit, which is why they have adopted this policy. :fum:
Don't get me wrong, I agree that these idiots should be shut down ASAP using the correct resources. While the general public should never be involved, they are in fact involved, because they're on the road and in danger when close to these hoons, so on that basis, complete roadblocks using the public vehicles to form part of the block and police cars at the rear as a first line attack. If the road is completely blocked and footpaths as well, they have no where to go. Surround and apprehend.
Victorian Police tried using public vehicles as roadblocks a few years ago. Rightly so, IMO, they were blasted in the media and by their superiors for putting the public in danger.
:link: Car chase outrage as police order driver roadblock (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/car-chase-outrage-as-police-order-driver-roadblock-20120515-1yp4t.html)
As it this case, somebody in this situation has no regard for other's property or safety.
Post by: Phil №❶ on January 08, 2016, 09:41:06
Post by: FatBoy on January 08, 2016, 09:49:31
They stay in their cars, shielded by the police vehicles at the rear. A speeding vehicle is less likely to try to barge through police vehicles knowing that there is no chance of getting through.
It didn't work in the example that I posted, Phil. You will put more people's lives at risk.
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 09:50:04
Post by: beerman on January 08, 2016, 12:00:40
Guess what, they still drive like idiots, only difference is, if there is no police car behind them there is no organisational risk so no need to answer to a Coroner.....Old mate who gets tee boned by the idiot driver still dies, it just avoids 3 days of anti police sentiment in the media.
Post by: Just Rick on January 08, 2016, 13:53:30
Sorry for my hard arse view but it's time the oxygen wasters of this world are deleted and costing the decent honest hard workers and tax payers money
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 14:47:18
The Police are damned if they do damned if they don't, my take on the situation is More powerful, better equipped cars, dedicated teams,who's only purpose is Pursuit,if not in pursuit they're training(in controlled areas) then when in pursuit, at the right place and time simply take these low lives out,hopefully they don't survive the officers do and no public get hurt.
Sorry for my hard arse view but it's time the oxygen wasters of this world are deleted and costing the decent honest hard workers and tax payers money
That's an interesting concept.
I think the problem is that when a pursuit happens, it happens suddenly so whoever is in the police vehicle at the same place is the one who's got the pursuit.
Certain states in the U.S. can take out the runners and it can be done. (Someone I know might have even done it once or twice..... :whistler:).
But whatever is done, not pursuing is the worst option as it gives the crims/idiots control of our roads and more opportunities to kill and maim innocents.
@ Beerman, I take your point! :goodjob2:
Post by: rustynutz on January 08, 2016, 14:51:36
Apparently Victoria has a "no chase" policy so no attempt was made to stop these idiots.
:link: Victoria Police revises vehicle pursuit policy, permitting car chases only when public safety threatened - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-13/victoria-overhauls-police-pursuit-policy-following-review/6615492)
http://priceonomics.com/the-case-for-banning-high-speed-police-chases/ (http://priceonomics.com/the-case-for-banning-high-speed-police-chases/)
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 14:53:19
Apparently Victoria has a "no chase" policy so no attempt was made to stop these idiots.
:link: Victoria Police revises vehicle pursuit policy, permitting car chases only when public safety threatened - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-13/victoria-overhauls-police-pursuit-policy-following-review/6615492)
http://priceonomics.com/the-case-for-banning-high-speed-police-chases/ (http://priceonomics.com/the-case-for-banning-high-speed-police-chases/)
Thanks Rusty. :goodjob2:
Which would be every occasion then. :undecided:
I relied upon the media for that information which is why I said "apparently."
Post by: rustynutz on January 08, 2016, 15:06:49
Post by: Phil №❶ on January 08, 2016, 21:22:47
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 08, 2016, 23:37:57
:link: It?s time for all police pursuits to be stopped, or at least seriously limited (http://www.canberratimes.com.au/comment/its-time-for-all-police-pursuits-to-be-stopped-or-at-least-seriously-limited-20150914-gjm1lx.html)
David Biles is a semi-retired Canberra criminologist. He was a member of major inquiries into the police in South Australia and Victoria in the 1970s and '80s and was the chair of the ACT Police Consultative Board from 2000 until 2008.
Says it all, really.
Post by: rustynutz on January 08, 2016, 23:44:19
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 09, 2016, 00:25:06
I note he was involved with inquiries into the police. I wonder what they were? :undecided:
When you have criminologists, who have no real world experience in the subject matter, it usually results in errors being made.
It would be like putting a professor in charge of the military. You need people with relevant experience making the decisions, not academics.
People who actually know what the issues are, first hand, and people who know what they are talking about.
Post by: rustynutz on January 09, 2016, 01:06:28
Facts such as:
Quote
A major study by the Australian Institute of Criminology, published in 2013, provides much relevant background information. This study, undertaken with the co-operation of all Australian police forces, examined all motor vehicle pursuit-related fatalities that occurred over the 12-year period, 2000 to 2011. During this period there were 185 fatal pursuit-related vehicle crashes resulting in 218 deaths. On average there were 15 crashes and 18 deaths per year.
Of the 218 deaths, 110 were of alleged offenders who were the drivers of the cars that had been pursued and a further 26 were the passengers in these cars. The remaining 82 deaths were of innocent parties; 37 were passengers in other vehicles and 45 were bystanders or other road users, including six police officers who were killed in the pursuits.
So, 82 innocent parties killed, surely a compelling reason to stop police pursuits? :undecided:
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 09, 2016, 01:21:16
Both sides of the argument need to be tabled.
I saw what happened as soon as the police in W.A. declared they would abort pursuits if offenders turned their headlights off and drove on the wrong side of the road.
Offenders started doing that knowing that police would stop pursuing.
The pendulum needs to swing back in the favour of law-abiding citizens, not offenders.
Stopping pursuits is a green light to the baddies.
Post by: rustynutz on January 09, 2016, 06:51:49
What it doesn't say is what happens when offenders are left to their own devices and allowed to steal, commit other criminal offences with the use of the motor vehicles and cause other injuries, deaths and mayhem in society.
While what you say sounds dramatic and would seemingly justify police pursuits, statistics tell us that the vast majority of pursuits are over minor traffic offences so how much of those other offences are actually being committed by letting them go? :undecided:
I saw what happened as soon as the police in W.A. declared they would abort pursuits if offenders turned their headlights off and drove on the wrong side of the road.
Offenders started doing that knowing that police would stop pursuing.
More reason to not have police pursuits then, surely?
Why endanger the general public needlessly if some of these offenders are prepared to do drastic things like that...
Stopping pursuits is a green light to the baddies.
That may be so but is the alternative worth the cost when innocent people are being injured or killed needlessly?
I for one don't believe so...
Post by: AlanHo on January 09, 2016, 07:27:46
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 09, 2016, 08:17:40
What it doesn't say is what happens when offenders are left to their own devices and allowed to steal, commit other criminal offences with the use of the motor vehicles and cause other injuries, deaths and mayhem in society.
While what you say sounds dramatic and would seemingly justify police pursuits, statistics tell us that the vast majority of pursuits are over minor traffic offences so how much of those other offences are actually being committed by letting them go? :undecided:
I wouldn't agree with that. A lot of the pursuits are members of a lawless section of the community who continually use other peoples' cars to commit further crimes such as bag snatches, ram raids on liquor stores and assaults.I saw what happened as soon as the police in W.A. declared they would abort pursuits if offenders turned their headlights off and drove on the wrong side of the road.
Offenders started doing that knowing that police would stop pursuing.
More reason to not have police pursuits then, surely?
Why endanger the general public needlessly if some of these offenders are prepared to do drastic things like that...
My point was that offenders know the system and use it to their advantage. When those restrictions were put into place, they exploited them. Ban pursuits altogether and they will exploit that, without doubt.Stopping pursuits is a green light to the baddies.
That may be so but is the alternative worth the cost when innocent people are being injured or killed needlessly?
I for one don't believe so...
I could cite case after case after case where offenders in stolen cars have killed innocent people in W.A. when the police have been nowhere near them.
With my family members and friends on the roads, if there are lawless people hooning around in stolen or unlicensed cars on public roads, my choice is to have them intercepted by professional pursuit drivers as soon as possible, apprehended and taken off the roads to minimize the risk to innocent members of the public. I acknowledge that there are risks during pursuits. Of course there are. To the public to the police and to the offenders. But I would hate to live in a State that just gives up on proper policing and, in effect, says to the lawless, "Here you go, the roads are yours for as long as you want them. Do whatever you like for as long as you like in someone else's car and hopefully we will be around whenever you decide to stop, so that we can arrest you." That is a bad policing model in my book. A case in point being what started this thread: Two people running around the roads of Victoria for two and a half hours.
Post by: rustynutz on January 09, 2016, 10:06:28
You're saying one thing, the stats would appear to contradict that...but, at the end of the day it's probably a moot point as it would seem the States are slowly bringing in no pursuit policies regardless so it's probably just a matter of time before they are also introduced in WA...
With Tasmania, Queensland & now Victoria having pretty much a no pursuit policy and with no reports of increased "anarchy" coming from those States I suspect not too much will change in WA...oh, other than perhaps a few less innocent people being killed! :P
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 09, 2016, 10:19:45
Dave, I can see we're never gonna agree with this one....surprise, surprise! :lol:
You're saying one thing, the stats would appear to contradict that...but, at the end of the day it's probably a moot point as it would seem the States are slowly bringing in no pursuit policies regardless so it's probably just a matter of time before they are also introduced in WA...
With Tasmania, Queensland & now Victoria having pretty much a no pursuit policy and with no reports of increased "anarchy" coming from those States I suspect not too much will change in WA...oh, other than perhaps a few less innocent people being killed! :P
You're probably right re the disagreement! :)
I don't agree that the stats contradict that because we've only seen one side of the stats.
I'm not convinced that W.A. will follow suit re the no pursuit policy but time will tell. It probably depends on who the next Commissioner is.
If it is introduced, it will not result in a few less innocent people being killed. It will result in more of the mayhem and lack of control that was demonstrated in Victoria the other day that we don't (as yet) get here in W.A. ;)
Post by: AlanHo on January 09, 2016, 10:45:47
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 09, 2016, 10:55:51
Can you two please shake hands and call it a draw - my 'ed 'urts...................... :head_butt:
:lol:
We always shake hands and call it a draw at the end of the day, Alan.
We just have opposing views - one coming from personal experience (mine) and the other coming from the internet (Rusty's). :rofl:
(Pin pulled, awaiting incoming........). :D
Post by: rustynutz on January 09, 2016, 12:00:57
If it is introduced, it will not result in a few less innocent people being killed. It will result in more of the mayhem and lack of control that was demonstrated in Victoria the other day that we don't (as yet) get here in W.A. ;)
Of course there is no mayhem when it comes to police pursuits in WA, Dave...
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/man-22-fights-for-his-life-after-police-chase-ends-in-horror-crash/news-story/2cf1775c2e3713c800f278686217b996 (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/man-22-fights-for-his-life-after-police-chase-ends-in-horror-crash/news-story/2cf1775c2e3713c800f278686217b996)
:link: Two dead as car hits tree after aborted police chase - The West Australian (https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/30258844/two-dead-as-car-hits-tree-after-aborted-police-chase/)
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 09, 2016, 12:17:17
Evidence, surely, that these offenders drive recklessly whether or not they are being pursued by police or not, wouldn't you agree?
Also of interest, and backing up what I have said, is this:
The headlights on the Holden were turned off as it drove on to the wrong side of the road, causing police to call off the chase.
Exactly what I have been saying. They know the loopholes and will always exploit them. They turn off their lights and drive on the wrong side of the road because they know that police pursuit policy states that police must abort the pursuit if either of these things happen.
Therefore, abolish pursuits altogether and that situation will be fully exploited by offenders, believe me, as I have said previously.
This just supports my argument, Rusty. ;)
Post by: Lakes on January 11, 2016, 10:40:52
Apparently Victoria has a "no chase" policy so no attempt was made to stop these idiots.
The car was followed by helicopter which in my mind places many more people at risk over a longer period of time.
I just do not agree with it.
It went for two and a half hours which is absolutely ridiculous and goes to show that these brain dead people still drive like this whether or not they have a police car behind them.
It ended when they crashed into another car and ran off and both were arrested at gunpoint.
Had they been chased by professional police pursuit drivers in police cars it would have been brought to a close much, much sooner.
Two and a half hours of danger is just plain stupid IMO.
And before the argument comes back that no one was injured, that was just pure luck on this occasion.
:link: Police chase from Wangaratta to Melbourne ends in pair's arrest (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-chase-from-wangaratta-to-melbourne-ends-in-pairs-arrest-20160108-gm20ne.html)
They should have phoned the Victorian minister for Police, get him to chase them , i read in paper last week he was caught speeding.
Post by: Dazzler on January 11, 2016, 11:08:45
Post by: Doggie 1 on January 11, 2016, 11:10:03