Post by: Spongey on April 16, 2015, 23:01:13
Background:
62 Reg I30 Diesel 1.6 CW, 37000 miles, predominantly national speed limit roads and motorway driving. Never ride the clutch (never any need around here) tend to drive with my left leg tucked by the seat. Car not used for towing. Car serviced at the local dealers.
Problem:
I recently noticed the clutch is slipping when the car is in 6th with the rpm above 2000 and the accelerator pedal is pushed fully down. (eg overtaking on the motorway between 60+mph).
This only happens when the car has been driven for 30+ min on national speed limit roads / motorways and I imagine the transmission is fully heated up, the engine temperature does not appear to have an affect, I can not replicate the effect in the first 15min of a journey even with the engine fully heated up no matter how hard i try.
Once the clutch has slipped the engine will rev higher than it should for the relative speed of the car (car will not accelerate). The clutch will regain grip once the accelerator is released (and engine revs drop). I have now noticed this 3 times. It only happens in 6th gear with the rpm at or above 2000 rpm with the throttle fully depressed and after 30+ min of driving .
The car has also developed a gritty rattle at roughly the same time which sounds to be coming from the engine bay when the engine is under load at 1750rpm in all gears.
Have never smelt burning clutch.
So I am drawing a bit of a blank if it is the clutch wearing out, it has hardly had any use relative to other cars i have owned and have never had a clutch burn out, normally keep my cars for 80,000+ miles. I am assuming it is a clutch issue however appreciate forum diagnostics are always going to be tricky but any similar experiences or ideas would be appreciated.
Post by: Surferdude on April 16, 2015, 23:11:55
My only thought is that I would expect slipping to occur in lower gears first.
When the problem occurs have you tried stopping and accelerating through the gears to check their operation?
Post by: Spongey on April 16, 2015, 23:20:28
Have also tried changing in and out of 6th to see if it is a gear box issue but makes no difference. Can not get the same effect in 5th.
One this is for sure will be a fun test drive for the mechanic trying to find the fault, he may have to go on a long drive.
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 17, 2015, 00:33:15
If it is a failing clutch it will continue to get worse and the problem will appear in 5th, then 4th etc.
Post by: Dazzler on April 17, 2015, 02:52:22
Going to be a bu**er to diagnose as you say! :confused:
Post by: crayman on April 17, 2015, 03:29:46
Do you have correct free play?
As posted, engine will always slip first in the highest gears.
Once it's completely shot she'll slip everywhere.
Post by: Spongey on April 17, 2015, 07:25:37
I also completely agree RE worn clutch and seeing symptoms first in higher gears but why is it temperature sensitive?
As the engine warms up power should increase slightly due to the lower viscosity of the oil and expansion of components which lowers the overall friction of the engine however, it is not engine temperature sensitive.
Higher temperature should also increase the frictional coefficient between the clutch friction surfaces and reduce the viscosity of the gear box oil reducing drag. So this should make it less likely to occur later in the journey after the engine has heated up.
Are there any weak oil seals between the clutch and the gearbox? which could leak oil when warm and the oil has a lower viscosity? The only other thing i can think of which would cause this would be air in the hydraulic clutch system expanding as the transmission heats up.
@Crayman
Not noticed any movement in bite point. It is aprox half way in the pedals travel.
The car has only complete 37000 miles and compared to cars i have owned in the past and taught my wife to drive in this clutch has barley lived much less been abused. Particularly as i now live in the back end of know where and in total the car probably has about 100 city miles on the clock.
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 17, 2015, 07:57:42
I would be taking the car to a dealer and have the clutch system bled and reset to proper tolerances. It may simply be a matter of adjustment.
Post by: Spongey on April 17, 2015, 08:28:46
As said the car is booked in for next week, just trying to garner ideas before seeing the garage as have had issues in the past where they have tried to claim no fault when it is visible problem.
Hopefully it is something which can be solved as simply as you say by bleeding the system.
Either way will report back next week once they have seen the car.
Post by: eye30 on April 17, 2015, 08:45:08
Post by: crayman on April 17, 2015, 09:35:41
If it slips straight up as soon as you apply some light pedal she's stuffed.
Bleeding the system sounds like it's not going to help as you mentioned that the bite point is still where it was and thus you do have a nice amount of free travel.
Once a clutch slips, it's usually all over. The diaphragm will no longer apply full clamping force if it's been cooked. (which doesn't take much)
Was there any evidence of engine or gearbox oil leaking into the flywheel region?
Post by: Lorian on April 17, 2015, 12:11:47
Was there any evidence of engine or gearbox oil leaking into the flywheel region?
That would be my thought, oil ingress has been know on other cars.
Post by: Spongey on April 17, 2015, 13:53:12
I have driven cars with clutches which have gone or were well on their way out but this one displays none of those types of behaviours.
Post by: Spongey on April 17, 2015, 18:02:34
There is no external signs of oil leakage (eg after being left parked) so will have to rely on the garage to check if they end up pulling the gear box / transmission. Just hope it's not the friction plates and whatever It is under warranty!
As said will keep you all informed!
Post by: eye30 on April 17, 2015, 20:33:46
Post by: Spongey on April 17, 2015, 21:49:53
Post by: Johnno on April 17, 2015, 23:18:10
Yes tried it this morning, stopped on a local B road after driving for 30+min, then accelerated away quite hard, cycling through each gear no slippage at any gear change (have never noticed any other clutch slippage) but then once at 60 in 6th 2000 rmp throttle past the 90%switch point sure enough started slipping. Released throttle as soon as i felt it slipping as don't want to damage whats left of the clutch.
Have also tried changing in and out of 6th to see if it is a gear box issue but makes no difference. Can not get the same effect in 5th.
One this is for sure will be a fun test drive for the mechanic trying to find the fault, he may have to go on a long drive.
Did the revs shoot up when it started to slip? as I can't get my head around this, it's either slipping or not, if your accelerating through the gears it would slip in all gears as you stated it starts about 2000rpm which is not far off where the torque peaks
and also leaking hydraulics won't cause it to slip because there will be no pressure on the pressure plate.
The possibilities are
worn clutch plate
weak pressure plate [ but if some of the fingers on the plate are weak you would also get clutch pedal judder]
oil contamination on flywheel / clutch plate and pressure plate [ spigot/input shaft oil seal or rear crank oil seal]
I don't know if the i30 clutch can be adjusted
Post by: Spongey on April 18, 2015, 11:44:43
When it does slip in 6th it is not as though the engine is reving without load, the revs increase slower, i have always backed off fairly quick when it has started to slip to try not cause any further damage but it has been up to a 1000rpm higher than it should of been, releasing the accelerator causes the rev to drop back to the cars drive speed.
I have not noticed any form of judder but not really sure what i would be looking for.
Post by: Spongey on April 18, 2015, 11:53:56
(It was serviced by a main dealer 4 months ago)
Post by: eye30 on April 18, 2015, 17:32:05
Oil filter access?
If so, after service not checked so what else has been scimped on!
Post by: Spongey on April 18, 2015, 18:21:13
For it to nearly be falling off 4 months after it's last service, becoming less impressed with their service (as have had other issues in the past such as been told there rusty roof rack wasn't rust but was surface oxidation), still one more thing to mention before they try to work out what's wrong with the clutch. Hope they tighten everything up when there in there!
Post by: eye30 on April 18, 2015, 19:25:07
it looks like its not been tightened up properly and vibrated itself off.
May be you don't have a clutch as it has worked loose and fallen off
Post by: Spongey on April 18, 2015, 19:45:06
Post by: Johnno on April 18, 2015, 20:14:08
Post by: crayman on April 18, 2015, 21:23:23
Quite easy to control Hp in a turbo engine by limiting boost.
Perhaps it's not slipping in 5th for this reason?
Post by: Spongey on April 18, 2015, 23:15:06
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 18, 2015, 23:26:50
Post by: Spongey on April 18, 2015, 23:42:04
For the premium paid for the dealership service I am very disappointed and with local garages quoting 40k services with genuine parts for £190 vs their £250 + effort you begin to wonder what you are paying for!
Thanks Johnno, there is no way I will let them charge me for the skid pan! They are fixing that!
Post by: Johnno on April 19, 2015, 00:02:52
I'm not familiar with the engine control on these cars but the ecu in some vehicles will not allow full Hp until the car is in top gear, warmed up etc.
Quite easy to control Hp in a turbo engine by limiting boost.
Perhaps it's not slipping in 5th for this reason?
Never heard that for a standard production car, because most dyno run's are done in 4th gear but this can also vary depending on the dyno. they use a set formula,which is Horsepower equals torque X 5252/RPM.
Thats my reason in thinking thats it's not limited . But I stand corrected if it is so.
The boost is controlled by adjusting the actuator and mapping
Post by: Dazzler on April 19, 2015, 01:34:04
I would be tactful about pointing the finger.. :confused:
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 19, 2015, 01:38:00
- The pan was not tightened at service.
- The pan was not tightened at manufacture.
Post by: Lorian on April 19, 2015, 20:34:16
is the slave / master easily visible under the car?
You can easily see both from under the bonnet. No floor crawling required.
I don't think a hydraulic issue will cause your fault , but anyway:
The master cylinder is behind the clutch reservoir on the left side of the firewall just below the windscreen. Check the fluid level, the reservoir is in front of the master cylinder.
To see the slave cylinder unbolt the black plastic air-intake (2x10mm) just above the radiator. This will give enough arm room (just) to reach down to the slave cylinder about 2/3 way down the gearbox casing. if you can't see it, get someone to press the clutch a few times while you look down an you will see it. It has a little rubber boot. If it's leaking a little there will be fluid in there. If it's leaking a lot you'll see it on the under-tray below. It wont make it as far as dripping on the floor.
It's really easy to bleed the clutch.
Post by: Lorian on April 19, 2015, 20:38:38
Well the rattle mystery is solved just been as far under the car as I can get without jacking it up and the engine skid plate is hanging off only one bolt left holding it on and that is half out managed to get a socket on the last bolt and tighten it up anyone know how many bolts there should be?? There appear to be 4 holes I can see.
(It was serviced by a main dealer 4 months ago)
It's not supposed to be a skid plate! It's an aerodynamic under-tray :razz:
My memory says 4 or 5 screws along the front, and it clips-in along the rear.
To my knowledge there is nothing in the first 5 years of servicing that requires them to remove it, but of course it may have been to afford some fix. After 5.5 years mine are all still present and correct, if a little corroded.
Post by: Spongey on April 19, 2015, 20:56:02
Have had a quick look no signs of leakage.
My mistake earlier scratching under the car i thought the skid plate / belly pan was steel when infact I think it is plastic after been under again today. Only one screw remaining. I will bring it up with the service manager but won't point the figure just annoying as this isn't the first issue I have had with their services, on a previous time in the garage they scratched the car by prying bolt covers on the silver roof bars with a screw driver.
Had a drive this morning since tightening up the only bolt the rattle is still there when the engine is under load at 1750rpm still no clutch slippage.even with foot flat to the floor. Only a 10min drive to the local town on national speed limit roads no clutch slippage (only seems to happen after 30min).
It's booked in for Back end of this week so will report back!
Post by: Lorian on April 19, 2015, 21:01:25
the rattle is still there when the engine is under load at 1750rpm still no clutch slippage
A rattle under load at 1750rpm you say, and a possible clutch issue - interesting - do you hear the rattle only under load in 4th/5th/6th gear, or can you hear in 1st and 2nd gear?
Post by: Spongey on April 19, 2015, 21:13:53
Post by: Lorian on April 19, 2015, 21:20:29
:link: Replacement Clutch due to vibration noise (Was:Replacement Flywheel - 1.6CRDi) (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=31605.0)
Was the reason I asked, bit of course this may be unelated to your issue.
I didn't have clutch slippage, but I did have a rattle/vibration at around 1800rpm-2000rpm, but only really noticeable under load in higher gears. I presume it was the springs rattling in the clutch, ultimately fixed by a 3-part clutch kit being fitted.
Passengers would never really understand what I was talking about but the noise was very evident to me. Hyundai Tech could hear it.
Post by: Spongey on April 19, 2015, 21:32:51
Thanks I read that when I was searching the forum before i started this post. It did seem quiet similar and after reading it just now seems almost identical except for the clutch issues. I know the friction plates aren't covered after 2 year but hopefully the rest of the clutch is!!
Either way the car is booked in Thursday the more I read though the more I think I won't be picking it up Thursday night after work.
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 19, 2015, 22:19:06
Cheers guys all the advice is hugely appreciated!
I will bring it up with the service manager but won't point the figure just annoying as this isn't the first issue I have had with their services, on a previous time in the garage they scratched the car by prying bolt covers on the silver roof bars with a screw driver.
Ah, so you're going to take the softly softly, approach with them, Spongey :D
Post by: Spongey on April 19, 2015, 23:00:51
I am a teacher so will go with I am not angry but I am very disappointed with you :( lol
Post by: Spongey on April 24, 2015, 23:47:56
By the time the car went into the garage on Wednesday it was almost undrivable after 20mins. The clutch was slipping in every gear above 2000rpm but only after 20 min unfortunately the garage is a 35min drive away but nursed it there!
I just got the car back from the garage today, it has been in the garage the last two days. The car has been fully repaired under warranty and has had a new gearbox oil seal, 3 part clutch and flywheel.
The seal between the gearbox and the clutch had failed and oil had leaked oil onto the clutch disk, the clutch disk had then gouged the surface of the flywheel so the garage replaced the seal, the clutch disk and the flywheel. Speaking to the service manager this is the first time they had ever replaced a clutch on the a new model i30 although they have seen this issue with i20s (different gearbox).
The above new parts, after driving 50 miles today, seem to of fixed both the vibration and the clutch slip
As an additional note the garage were expecting to find a dual mass fly wheel. I know there has been some debate on the forums over this but my earlyish 62 plate i30 with 1.6 CRDI 110PS has a single mass flywheel.
Once again thanks for all your help, car now drives great!
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 25, 2015, 00:18:15
Post by: Surferdude on April 25, 2015, 02:41:10
Thanks for the update.
Post by: Dazzler on April 25, 2015, 06:08:23
Post by: eye30 on April 25, 2015, 08:04:18
Post by: Asterix on April 25, 2015, 11:08:57
Post by: pmel018 on May 01, 2015, 20:41:52
Phil
Post by: eye30 on May 01, 2015, 23:15:45
Sorry I am a bit late to this thread. I had exactly the same experience with my 2013 i30 Sport. At 6000 miles or so the clutch began to slip in exactly the same fashion, 5th or 6th gear mid-range throttle. After a very unpleasant session with the dealer, the gearbox was removed and the first motion shaft oil seal replaced, along with the entire clutch assembly. The dealer, in St Albans, who had been very good previously, were a complete waste of time and tried everything to get me to accept responsibility. Needless to say i now use another dealer who commented "ah the £5 oil seal problem again". Post repair all has been well.Is your car an auto or manual box?
Phil
Post by: Dazzler on May 02, 2015, 00:08:10
Sorry I am a bit late to this thread. I had exactly the same experience with my 2013 i30 Sport. At 6000 miles or so the clutch began to slip in exactly the same fashion, 5th or 6th gear mid-range throttle. After a very unpleasant session with the dealer, the gearbox was removed and the first motion shaft oil seal replaced, along with the entire clutch assembly. The dealer, in St Albans, who had been very good previously, were a complete waste of time and tried everything to get me to accept responsibility. Needless to say i now use another dealer who commented "ah the £5 oil seal problem again". Post repair all has been well.Is your car an auto or manual box?
Phil
I'll put my money on it being a manual :whistler: :snigger:
Post by: pmel018 on May 02, 2015, 15:09:41