[Mutley]

Hey guys,

I've just been reading around about oils and have decided to get either one of these two oils for my 15000km change which is coming up soon.

Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30
Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w-40

The problem I found was where to buy from. I then found this seller on ebay and it's much cheaper than the prices I've been reading about on here. $65 for 6 1L bottles!
http://stores.ebay.com.au/GL-Lubricants
Or their normal website: http://www.gllubricants.com/

Where else have you all been buying from and can you help me decide which one to choose from because this seller has both.

I think Mobil 1 0w40 is a better oil than either of those but probably more expensive. ESP versions (low ash for exhaust filters) are not required for Oz.

I've not researched Mobil oils extensively other than to decide 0w40 was the most likely to be the only one to be a proper synthetic. Just offering another idea if you are looking at Mobil oils in particular.

EDIT: I looked at the prices and see they are all the same and $13 cheaper (for 6 quarts) than my supplier would charge! 0w40 would certainly be my choice.

[Mutley]

Hi Pip, can you give me a reason why you think 0w40 is better?

Sounds like you use a different oil?

Hi Pip, can you give me a reason why you think 0w40 is better?

Sounds like you use a different oil?

I use an imported Castrol 0w30 made to a German formulation and known gernerally as "German Castrol". Google that and you will find out what it is.

WRT to Mobil 1 0w40, it is probably a very similar oil to the GC and probably my 2nd choice. 3rd choice would be Castrol Edge 0w40.

You might see a trend? They all are 0w oils. It's almost impossible to identify what oils are made from and not unreasonable for the makers to keep that proprietry information quiet however it is very difficult if not impossible to reach the 0w specification with an oil base not 100% synthetic.

An oil does not need to be 100% synthetic to do an excellent job but an 100% synthetic will always be the best the manufacturer can make. They simply will not use the most expensive of ingredients to make a second rate oil!

The real cost difference between the top tier oils and lesser oils is insignificant in the total cost of ownership by my reckoning so I see no reason at all to not use one of the better oils.

Pure speculation: As manufacturers are required to modify their oils to meet increasingly tighter environmental demands it might just be possible that compromises might need to be taken WRT its actual lubrication qualities. Any such compromises will more likely affect oils already nearer the lower margin of effectiveness.

I also see no point in buying an oil that has specific qualities that are not actually needed for the engine. I'm refering to C3/low SAPS/low ash/ESP oils for use in Oz diesels. These are designed to preserve exhaust filters, of which we have none. What if the C3 formulations reduce some other wanted quality? Like I said, speculation.

[Mutley]

Thanks for that Pip, but wouldn't low ash content which reduces particulate build up, low oil consumption (therefore less hydrocarbon pollution) be better for the environment even though our diesels have no DPF? And therefore be the better oil to choose.

What is the real advantage of going 0w instead of 5w? I'll be moving to Melbourne soon so cold weather here I come! This may affect which one I choose too.

[2i30s]

its not allways cold down here,its as hot as hell in summer. 

[Lorian]

Research on the net indicated ESP is made froma blend of OSP (group4) and visom (proprietary group3+ base stock).

There is some speculation on the net that Mobil 1 0w40 is now a blend too, to save mobil 1 costs (increase profits).

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1993530&page=1

[agentr31]

the hyundai branded oil is 5W30 and it has a big shell logo on it... looking at the shell site it seems i bought "shell helix ultra extra" LOL what a mouth full

[Lorian]

Helix is nearly twice the price of the "Asda Mobile 1 ESP" available over here at the moment.

Research on the net indicated ESP is made froma blend of OSP (group4) and visom (proprietary group3+ base stock).

There is some speculation on the net that Mobil 1 0w40 is now a blend too, to save mobil 1 costs (increase profits).

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1993530&page=1

Thanks for that link. It caused me to spend even more time at BITOG.

I have to say that I've not used any Mobil products but anecdotal evidence from many sources on the web confirm that M1 leaves engines beautifically clean and apparently long lasting. Not to mention that it is used as OEM fill in some very expensive cars. Whatever group base oil is used!

As I said, group 4 does not of necessity better group 3 but all things being equal I think the concensis is that it does. Germany calls group 4/5 100% synthetic and group 3 is not so called. My choice of German oil with an excellent reputation and unlikely to be re-formulated to use cheaper base (without breaking the law) keeps me happy.

[Dazzler]

Helix is nearly twice the price of the "Asda Mobile 1 ESP" available over here at the moment.

The Shell Helix Ultra I picked up for A$40 on clearance was certainly a bargain (since used in my Hybrid) and the next four sevices are fixed at maximum of A$130 including oil.. I still have a reserve of Castol Edge Sport 5W30 (which I will use in the Wife's Tiida. It used to often special out at A$30 to A$35 but Autobarn over here have it on special at the moment for over A$58 

[Mutley]

So after all that, it seems to me that the 0w is no better than the 5w, correct?
This leaves me back at my other question.

wouldn't low ash content which reduces particulate build up, low oil consumption (therefore less hydrocarbon pollution) be better for the environment even though our diesels have no DPF? And therefore be the better oil to choose.

Which in turn leads back to my original question. Which is better out of those 2?

[agentr31]

bah... rimula 15W40... if a truck can use it going up the toowoomba range in 1st gear for 2 hours straight with 62.5t behind it... your i30 will love it!

[Mutley]

no offense but I'm not going to compare a truck diesel with my little refined zippy one......and I don't wanna use shell oil

[agentr31]

no offence taken... i was kidding sif use rimula!!

im an RX super man myself

So after all that, it seems to me that the 0w is no better than the 5w, correct?

No!

At least not if that was the only consideration. All oil will be much thicker than optimum at any startup temperature, just more so for severe low temperatures. There is essentially no cold temperature viscosity number that is too low (thin); in fact they are all many, many times thicker than optinum even with an ambient startup temperature of 40⁰ C or more. So the "thinner" the better and currently 0w represents the thinnest value.

Realise that I'm only speaking to the cold viscosity and there are many other considerations.

It is acknowledged that most engine wear occurs when operated at less than optimum temperature (100⁰ C or thereabouts) and oil flow, or lack of, is a major part of why, so this is an important specification in its own right, irrespective of whether the base oil is of this or that.

And to follow-up on my original argument, an oil spec of 0w implies a greater if not full use of synthetic base oil. One of the many advantages of synthetic oil is not only its resistance to thickening at low temperatures but its resistance to thinning at extreme high temperature. The oil flow through turbochargers is subjected to very high temperatures; they are after all driven by exhaust gasses which achieve temperatures well beyond normal engine figures of 100⁰ C.

Got a turbo? Try hard to buy 100% synthetic.

Finally, and not to overstate it; anyone who cooks will be aware that butter (an oil) is solid at room temperature and thin as water when heated. Engine oil is not much different (apart from taste ) and it helps to visualise it like this. It is only at the correct thickness at 100⁰ C and is either too thick or too thin at other temperatures. Synthetic oil has less temperature viscosity variation. I really think it is better to actually get proper synthetic base oil. If only the oil companies would tell us which is which.

[Mutley]

Very good reasoning Pip. Thanks!

What about the difference between 30 and 40 with these oils. If 0 is better for colder engine temps then what about normal operating temps? I would have thought 0w30 would be a good choice but it doesn't seem to really exist.

hotteWhat about the difference between 30 and 40 with these oils. If 0 is better for colder engine temps then what about normal operating temps? I would have thought 0w30 would be a good choice but it doesn't seem to really exist.

The second  number, 30 or 40, is not really a viscosity at all (although in a different way that the first number isn't either) but rather a range of viscosities. Viscosity is measured by testing its flow at 100⁰ C in units of something called centistokes.

30 = 9.3-12.5 cSt
40 = 12.5-16.3 cSt

The desired end result whether you use 30, 40 or even 50 is that the oil will stabilise (at the running temperature) to be nearly the same and ideal viscosity as determined by the engine manufacturer. By that I mean that a car raced hard at the track might use a 50 weight and the hotter oil thins to the same viscosity as yours and mine being grannied along with a 30 weight. It's not where you start it's where you finish! I might add that it's not a good idea to use a thicker oil in the misguided belief that it will provide better protection. Oil flow is what is required and oil too thick is just that.

Because the viscosity required at running temperature is much the same for all engines it's no surprise that many oils are made near the same viscosity around about 12.5 cSt.  Refering to the range above you will see this is right on the border between 30 and 40 so a 30 or 40 in practice could be near enough the same weight in use. Interestingly, M1 is known to "thin" a little (called shearing) part way into its life and could therefore be considered a thick 30 weight as a result. For all practical purposes M1 0w40 is the same as my choice of German Castrol 0w30. I speak of viscosity only here.

The tendency has been to use thinner and thinner oils (w30, w20) in order to reduce friction from the oil itself for economy reasons. I imagine that when pushing the lower boundaries it would be very important to ensure the oil is capable of holding its viscosity and does not shear.

And yes I agree that 0w30 sound ideal. I'm using it!!

[Mutley]

Cool, thanks for the explanation. I found a mobil 1 0w30 but it doesn't meet the diesel's requirements.

Mobil 1 0W-30 Advanced Fuel Economy fully synthetic motor oil outperforms conventional oils and meets or exceeds the warranty requirements for many GM, Ford, Chrysler and Toyota vehicles.  It is suitable for the following:

GM 6094M, GM 4718M (Corvette spec)
Ford WSS-M2C929-A
Chrysler MS-6395
ILSAC GF-4 energy conserving
API SM/CF
ACEA A1/B1

Where do you buy your oil from?

Where do you buy your oil from?

http://performancelub.com/index.htm

[Mutley]

ahhh hahaha I was looking at that site

$84 for 6L + shipping! hmmmmm

The only reason I buy there is because I've not found another source... spency, yes.

[Mutley]

So I have to decide on these 2 then:

Mobil 1 0w40 = $65 for 5.676 Litres + ~$13 shipping = $78
German Castrol SYNTEC 0w30 = $84 for 5.676 Litres + ~$16 shipping = $100

Decisions decisions.....hmmmm

[Dazzler]

Hey Mutley,

I wonder if the sums would change much if you got say 3 or 4 lots of either (at once)

Some companies really look after you if you buy a few of something...

[Mutley]

Well I've sent them an email about the castrol so will see what they say.

Well I've sent them an email about the castrol so will see what they say.

I know this sounds like I'm arguing against myself but I would not necesarily discount either of your first choices. Changes to oil are constant and what I'd buy today might be different to next time. Research, and an attempt to educate yourself on how to interpret specifications and marketing speak I think is the way to go.

I tried not to say that I didn't like your oils, only that I think a 0w rating suggests a good oil underlies that spec. I've not done any research on the Mobil oils you opened with so cannot offer any specific opinion (and that is all it can be).

In fact, you've got me considering them for my own use but I've just not taken the time to do the research yet.

Having said that, I've poured in two lots of the GC and the thing that got me the first time was how much less "mechanical" the engine sounded at startup. Hardly scientific, and what that observation might mean in practical terms is unknown... but instinctively it seemed a good thing. I would have to find something very compelling to make a change at this point.

And just a note for anyone trying to research oils; all companies seem to sell different formulations in different countries with the same or very similar names. Be careful that you are making decisions based on the specs for the oil you will actually use.

Mobil for instance not only sell a whole range of products they call Mobil 1 but even bottles marked with what appears to be the same name may not be the same at all. The US market might also use a diffferent formulation because they do not have low sulphur fuels that EU and AUS have. Mercedes Benz "Long Life" specific rating for instance will require LL 01 in US and LL 04 in EU. If this particular rating was seen as important to you then you need to consider where you live! It's a mine field.

[Mutley]

Pip, your reasoning is very logical to me. I did not just discount those original ones, I looked up all 4 of these oils. Nobody has really used the Formula M much so I going to stick clear of it. The Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 however has been used by many including i30 owners and they all seem to love it so it's still in my mind. The Mobil 1 0w40 I found to be good as well and I would prefer to go with a 0w oil now that I understand it a bit more. The GC 0w30 has only gotten rave reviews and I did find a couple of reviews from someone that tried both the Mobil 1 and the GC and both said the GC was better so I am leaning towards it now, especially since an i30 owner has tried it with no ill effects so far (yourself).

[Mutley]

6 x GC 0w30 cost $84.00
Shipping cost $19.00
Total cost is $103.00 delivered

12 x GC 0w30 cost cost $168.00
Shipping cost $25.00
Total cost is $193.00 ($185.00 for you delivered)

24 x GC 0w30 cost $336.00
Shipping cost $35.00
Total cost is $371.00 ($340.00 for you delivered)

Anyone in QLD want some of this oil? Sunshine cost - Brisbane area....

I am also considering the Nulon 5w-30 http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Full_Synthetic_5W-30_Long_Life_Diesel_and_Petrol_Engine_Oil/
A friend of mine is using the Nulon and he said it freed up the engine a lot, cleaned out it out nicely, and so slippery that the turbo spools faster now. He has an EVO 7. He used Castrol Edge 5w-35 before this.
Not sure how different the Edge 5w-35 compares to the GC 0w-30...

EDIT:
Pip, I just read an old post of yours and you stated that after putting in the GC 0w30 you noticed worse fuel economy. Is this still the case?

Ok well I'm back to deciding between Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 and GC 0w30. Basically the Mobil seems to be of higher standard. I also found a post by someone that said that the B5 standard is improved fuel economy so if that's the case then that could be why people with Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 notice better economy than those with GC 0w30.

I just read some stuff about the nulon and it seems it's just like any other normal australian available product so not going to try it.

6 x GC 0w30 cost $84.00
Shipping cost $19.00
Total cost is $103.00 delivered

12 x GC 0w30 cost cost $168.00
Shipping cost $25.00
Total cost is $193.00 ($185.00 for you delivered)

24 x GC 0w30 cost $336.00
Shipping cost $35.00
Total cost is $371.00 ($340.00 for you delivered)

Anyone in QLD want some of this oil? Sunshine cost - Brisbane area....

I am also considering the Nulon 5w-30 http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Full_Synthetic_5W-30_Long_Life_Diesel_and_Petrol_Engine_Oil/
A friend of mine is using the Nulon and he said it freed up the engine a lot, cleaned out it out nicely, and so slippery that the turbo spools faster now. He has an EVO 7. He used Castrol Edge 5w-35 before this. Not sure how different the Edge 5w-35 compares to the GC 0w-30

It looks like Harold from Performance Lube is not prepared to offer any bulk discount. Pity, particularly with the strong dollar.

I decided against Nulon when I did my initial research, too many negatives found although support for Oz company worthwhile.

The Edge 5w30 was what I had in immediately before the GC. The difference in audible noise after taking it out seriously made me wonder whether I had done my engine a disservice by having it in for 6000km or so. Some here use it and by specification it's as good as any (although it is a group 3 which is reflected in the street price). I use in in my Getz and am quite happy with it there. I think the turbo diesel might benefit by something better.

[Mutley]

Did you see my edit above Pip?

Also Harold is giving a little discount...especially on buying 24 bottles.