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Hi guysnow i have checked a bit around the forums and i only see ppl r posting places where u can get those tuning boxes.... but is there anyone that have tried them out on their own car and can give a good picture of how the preformance is? tbh i dont give much for what the fabricators says the tuning box does... i trust more on what ppl say that got the hardware installed and use it everyday.. so please... give us some info ...thanks
Personally, I don't have the box, but it is tempting. Whilst I'm a 21 y.o, (hence everyone considers me (especially insurance companies) to be in the stereotype of boy racer) I'd rather pursue the ultimate economy of the i30 rather than performance. But I also don't want to risk voiding warranties etc.I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.
I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.
Quote from: whitbomb07 on February 27, 2009, 10:45:18I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.When you contact Hy Aus get them to reply in writing confirming their reponse.It would be useful if you post the reply here, yes or no, so all members will be aware of the policy etc.If the reply is it is yes in Oz then members from other countries can then check the policy in their country. If they receive a no then they can query this if Oz is yes.You get the drift.
Hopefully with some fact and *adult* discussion this thread can remain on track and not get closed prematurely
I'll save you the phone call, the tuning box will void warranty if its deemed to have affected the operation of the vehicle but limited to the parts youve played with.
Likewise an ECU edit will void the warranty if it's found to be the root cause of the failed part. (Just like any modification to the vehicle)
Then again, if you are chasing ultimate economy and have 'reduced' the output power, and then a part fails, it is up to Hyundai to show that a 'reduction' in power output has caused that part or parts to fail.
Also with the i30 Diesel Turbo, there are multiple sensors that track how much fuel is going into the engine, what load the engine is under, how much unburnt fuel is going out the exhaust, knock sensor, fuel rail over pressure sensor, so on and so forth. There are safety systems on the i30 that prevent over fueling, prevent over powering and prevent damage to the engine when a 'simple' TuningBox is fitted.
When performing an ECU hack, these safety parameters can be overridden by software, thus pushing the limits of the i30 Diesel way past it's intended and safe parameters. (That is if the programmer/tuner removes the limits for boost and fuel to create even higher amounts of power.)
Increasing fuel delivery alone will increase Exhaust Gas Temps, though increasing turbo boost AND fuel pressure will result in even higher EGT's and may even push the turbo outside it's efficiency range only to heat the incoming air even more, without increasing boost, resulting in even higher EGT's.
There are Pro's and Con's for both setups.If you wish for a mild increase only on a budget, a TuningBox will suit.
If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)
BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)
Just some extra points to consider when you wish to research this further.
Yes there are sensors that attempt to keep everything within the *safe* limits (determined by manufacturer) of the cars life in all sorts of conditions.
When you stick something like a *simple* tuning box in the path of a sensor, how does the ECU handle said limits from the fuel rail pressure sensor, lets be honest it cant because the tuning box is providing the signal to the ecu from the sensor, you have plugged a device in the path to the ECU that is messing with the voltage. If your tuning box goes awol and starts over commanding fuel pressures but doesnt fail on the ECU output side, how sure are you that its going to let the ECU know whats happening correctly , my confidence level here would be minimal youve plugged a *simple* device inline thats modifying wire voltages as it sees fit.
BTW, I'm not sure that we'd have knock sensors in a diesel engine (and i may be wrong), engine knock occurs from pre-ignition when you have spark timing set incorrectly in petrol(gas) engines, there are no sparks with diesel's , combustion is controlled by the heat and compression in the cylinder.
ECU Edit/Hack whatever you want to call it, If your tuner of choice is removing these safey parameters then they simply dont know what they are doing or are after a quick buck.
I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor
Quote from: Thumper on February 27, 2009, 23:22:03If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.
Quote from: Thumper on February 27, 2009, 23:22:03BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)Wrong, the ecu software is generally protected so that a home mechanic cant come along and mess with things, this can often take many years to come across a workable solution. You have to break that encryption to be able to even ascertain what data is in the ECU's software and where it is, if you look at late model bmw's they're now using 512kbit encryption, cracking that is NOT going to be easy, think of your banking system thats probably still using 256kbit encryption on its website.
*Whistles*Oh boy, where do I start...........
Before this goes WAY off topic, like most of these threads, due to miss-information, let me correct a few irregularities. Also there is only so much I'm allowed to say, since I've been requested not to supply certain information.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45Yes there are sensors that attempt to keep everything within the *safe* limits (determined by manufacturer) of the cars life in all sorts of conditions.Then you go on to say.Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45When you stick something like a *simple* tuning box in the path of a sensor, how does the ECU handle said limits from the fuel rail pressure sensor, lets be honest it cant because the tuning box is providing the signal to the ecu from the sensor, you have plugged a device in the path to the ECU that is messing with the voltage. If your tuning box goes awol and starts over commanding fuel pressures but doesnt fail on the ECU output side, how sure are you that its going to let the ECU know whats happening correctly , my confidence level here would be minimal youve plugged a *simple* device inline thats modifying wire voltages as it sees fit.There is more than just one sensor monitoring the engine, like you previously described. With the Tuningbox you are only changing ONE sensors output. If the Tuningbox goes "AWOL" and outputs a voltage outside the normal operating parameters set in the ECU, causing the fuel pressure to rise, then the over-pressure limiting vale will open on the fuel pressure rail.Also the exhaust lambda sensor will know that the engine is now over fueling and cut back pump pressure and/or cut back injector pulse width, and/or ETC will be reduced. The ECU may even go as far as to go into limp home mode (MAX RPM is 3,000rpm with 35-40% throttle up to that RPM)
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45ECU Edit/Hack whatever you want to call it, If your tuner of choice is removing these safey parameters then they simply dont know what they are doing or are after a quick buck.Yes, there are many cowboys out there. We've all heard of them.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45BTW, I'm not sure that we'd have knock sensors in a diesel engine (and i may be wrong), engine knock occurs from pre-ignition when you have spark timing set incorrectly in petrol(gas) engines, there are no sparks with diesel's , combustion is controlled by the heat and compression in the cylinder.In a CRDi ignition is achieved by heat/compression.Fuel timing is controlled by the ECU.Fuel timing can be advanced, retarded, multiple injections per power stroke (Up to five injections on certain cycles) There is a 'Pilot' injection to help reduce the classic diesel 'knock/clatter' we all know of. There can even be an injection of fuel when the exhaust valve is open to super heat the exhaust gases when certain DPF's are being used and need to 'burn' off excess carbon in the filter.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor 33+ PSI MAP, correct. The stock boost for a CRDi i30 manual.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45Quote from: Thumper on February 27, 2009, 23:22:03If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45Quote from: Thumper on February 27, 2009, 23:22:03BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)Wrong, the ecu software is generally protected so that a home mechanic cant come along and mess with things, this can often take many years to come across a workable solution. You have to break that encryption to be able to even ascertain what data is in the ECU's software and where it is, if you look at late model bmw's they're now using 512kbit encryption, cracking that is NOT going to be easy, think of your banking system thats probably still using 256kbit encryption on its website.I have no idea what computer system you are talking about when you say "512kbit" encryption. The highest on any system I've worked upon (Doing R&D work) was 1024bit. (And those were Defence systems)Heck, even WEP for normal home use is only 104bit. (WPA & WPA2 is 256bit)I will not go into what security Hyundai have placed on their Bosch ECU's, nor will I explain how access was granted. All I can say is it wasn't that hard for a Bosch programmer to gain access to a Bosch ECU! Each to their own with regards to modifying their vehicle. What I will agree on is, you play, you pay.
I know this is probably getting hard to read by now
but I'm sure people are interested
lets keep this going without the need to become personal
...and have the thread closed... as we've both said there are pro's and con's to each system and its best that its all in one thread rather than scattered amongst a group of locked threads with mis-information as the final posts.
I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. I think were getting there slowly 8)
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09...and have the thread closed... as we've both said there are pro's and con's to each system and its best that its all in one thread rather than scattered amongst a group of locked threads with mis-information as the final posts.This is why threads are being locked down, maybe incorrectly, but on who's say-so are these "final posts" being classed as "mis-information"? Yours?
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. I think were getting there slowly 8)I think you might be right - I wanted a "quick fix" to my low-end lack of response. I got that fix, so I'm happy.
I dont think we need to start whistling and attempting to appear elitist we are meant to be adults.Just start at the begining, its the easiest
I dont know why you would be asked to not say too much
Maybe I should have worded this a bit better, You have added a box that is playing "man in the middle" and can fail on either its input from the sensor and or output to the ecu. *SNIP*Dependant on how this signal fails in the tuning box, how does the ECU know whats really going on until you remove the box, how do you even know the tuning box is/has failed, its not going to throw a "check engine" lamp on the dash. Considering that failure, if it happens to command maximum of fuel pressure (from the tuning box commanding it via a low/high voltage) at low rpm where your engine shouldnt have that much fuel, more fuel = more exhaust gas = more boost, how confident are you that its not possible to throw a rod out of the side of the block because of the failure of the "man in the middle".
There are more than likely just as many if not more snake-oil variable resistors but i dont see you calling that style of system a hack
Is it because your attempting to justify the purchase price for a variable resistor ? So rather than class every ECU modification as a hack, how much have you discussed the technical side of the ECU tunes available in Australia with a tuner ?
I admit to knowing Martin( i did so in a couple of PM's to various people including a moderator) he tuned my v8 initially before I spent $1300+ on the hardware with a completely different company to have a play and come to terms with it all during which time he provided answers to my questions , he was gaining no further $$$'s for his effort and didnt need to help but you dont know if you dont ask.
This is why i keep saying talk to your tuner, this is the most important thing armed with information!
You also mention you have a usb port for your tuning box for playing with the maps, can you supply some images of the maps and what exactly your getting to change with it ?
I really havn't had a look at your exact box (I have no idea what one it is even) so im not 100% sure of what it can do but if its only plugging into the fuel rail pressure sensor I believe it will only be modifying fuel pressure
How does it get values like engine RPM and injector pulse widths if its only plugging into a pressure sensor ? Is it guessing these off what the common rail pressure is at ? How does it know what the pressure should be for any given RPM and boost level ?
I gather not all tuning boxes have this usb option to manipulate the way its acting.
Was that a long winded yes, there is no knock sensor ? (good information though)
If your ECU is attempting to superheat the exaust gasses under these circumstances, what happens with the tuning box in the way, wont it be making the issue take longer to resolve for the ECU because its recieving false information from the sensor which is under/overfueling because thats the way the end user has set it ?. If its doing a 'burn' off of excess carbon in the filter and your commandling lower fuel pressure, that 'burn' off wont have completed properly if the ECU only does this for a specific amount of time.
Tricking sensors is not the best way to go, we have ECU's in our car to control these things why wouldnt you let that expensive bit of equipment do its job correctly ?
Quote from: Thumper on February 28, 2009, 09:14:36Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor 33+ PSI MAP, correct. The stock boost for a CRDi i30 manual.Where are you reading the 33+PSI MAP from ?
Comparing your stated boost from the scanguage($200 item) (I'll assume the scanguage (again please correct me if im wrong)) why is your boost numbers so much higher than the Dyno graph showing boost from DW Tuning which only shows 19psi boost max (a $120,000 industry standard item)
both read their data from the diagnostic port(this is the only other example I have to go by since nobody else has supplied a dyno sheet showing this information). I would think feeding 33psi into the cylinder, compressing it , and burning it which would make it expand further from heat and firing it down the exhaust to the turbo would make a reading of atleast 33psi by the turbo.This isnt a sh*t stir , I'm attempting to know where and how the 33+psi comes into play, so please no etc in your responce.
Quote from: Thumper on February 28, 2009, 09:14:36Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 05:40:45Quote from: Thumper on February 27, 2009, 23:22:03If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?Your suggestion was that ECU tuning is only for outright power which isnt factual because if asked im sure a reasonable tuner could also edit the CPU for maximum fuel economy. So lets say that you can infact do an outright output effort with a tunning box( you personally have mentioned wheelspin in second gear on boost) but because all your doing is tricking a sensor its not really the best method although good value for money that is if you dont mind the con's listed in the replies but love the pro's.
Remember the tuning boxes are sold to the general public to play with and are essentially a variable resistor (programable to a minimal extent via usb or not) and probably do more harm than good in the wrong hands, much like an ECU edit done by a tuner that is clueless could do the same damage. Again, a decent conversation with a tuner would sort the men from the boys but only if you know what to ask I doubt you can have this sort of conversation with a tuning box manufacturer over the phone.
I'ts not something the home mechanic has the hardware or knowledge to do as "easy" as you stated if it was then there would be kits available for the home tuner to do so and the software would be able to interperet the ecu software eeprom, this is what the tuning hardware/software for my other car does.If my 10year old car has this protection you can bet a new car has it and more (albiet you could brute force my 10 year old one in 24-48hrs) . R&D on something like this is time consuming and costly, in the other thread there was complaint that it was a 10minute operation, clearly this isnt the case.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I dont think we need to start whistling and attempting to appear elitist we are meant to be adults.Just start at the begining, its the easiest No, I just find it interesting that you have a certain interest in this matter, and I was right on my hunch. As another V8 Commodore owner who lives in Adelaide who also has had work performed on their vehicle by Martin and is a member of the LS1 forums, why am I not surprised at the long winded posts and lack on knowledge in the matter. (Not an attack, just a very astute observation)Let's continue:
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I dont know why you would be asked to not say too muchHave a think about it. I'm sure the answer will come to you. (As I've explained previously in other posts as to why, I'm not going to repeat myself)
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09How confident are you that its not possible to throw a rod out of the side of the block because of the failure of the "man in the middle". As long as the ECU receives signals form it's sensors within the set factory tolerances (Which are set rather low for safety of the equipment) then it will permit those changes.Go outside these factory set tolerances (Which you can do with a ECU edit, something your tuner should have told you) then yes, expect to throw a leg out the side of the block, as you put it.
How confident are you that its not possible to throw a rod out of the side of the block because of the failure of the "man in the middle".
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09There are more than likely just as many if not more snake-oil variable resistors but i dont see you calling that style of system a hackBecause we are not discussing those kind of modifications, now, are we? To comment on them would be off-topic in this regard.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09Is it because your attempting to justify the purchase price for a variable resistor ? So rather than class every ECU modification as a hack, how much have you discussed the technical side of the ECU tunes available in Australia with a tuner ?Careful, sounds like Martin talking there. (I believe he used the same words in his previous posts) I have no reason to justify my purchases. I enjoy what I do and make no money from what I do. Yes, I would classify changing only the fuel map in the ECU as a hack. Dumping the entire ROM and changing every single parameter to suit, is a complete rewrite.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I admit to knowing Martin(and I did so in a couple of PM's to various people including a moderator I have no agenda here) he tuned my v8 initially before I spent $1300+ on the hardware with a completely different company to have a play and come to terms with it all during which time he provided answers to my questions , he was gaining no further $$$'s for his effort and didnt need to help but you dont know if you dont ask. Glad Martin supplied you with the information you requested. Since he refused to answer basic questions on here, when asked.
I admit to knowing Martin(and I did so in a couple of PM's to various people including a moderator I have no agenda here) he tuned my v8 initially before I spent $1300+ on the hardware with a completely different company to have a play and come to terms with it all during which time he provided answers to my questions , he was gaining no further $$$'s for his effort and didnt need to help but you dont know if you dont ask.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09This is why i keep saying talk to your tuner, this is the most important thing armed with information!I do, on a regular basis.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09You also mention you have a usb port for your tuning box for playing with the maps, can you supply some images of the maps and what exactly your getting to change with it ?That I have, and no I shall not. Again, request from Hyundai Australia not to supply that information.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I really havn't had a look at your exact box (I have no idea what one it is even) so im not 100% sure of what it can do but if its only plugging into the fuel rail pressure sensor I believe it will only be modifying fuel pressure If you read this forum, and know that I have a USB programing cable, then you should have read in the same post what kind of box I have.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09Was that a long winded yes, there is no knock sensor ? (good information though)Well, here is some information, how would the ECU know how much fuel to use in the pilot injection, to reduce diesel 'clatter' if it can't hear what is going on? (Food for thought)
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09If your ECU is attempting to superheat the exaust gasses under these circumstances, what happens with the tuning box in the way, wont it be making the issue take longer to resolve for the ECU because its recieving false information from the sensor which is under/overfueling because thats the way the end user has set it ?. If its doing a 'burn' off of excess carbon in the filter and your commandling lower fuel pressure, that 'burn' off wont have completed properly if the ECU only does this for a specific amount of time.Again I'd suggest you do some research or even ask your tuner about this. Some simple knowledge in this area would help.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09Tricking sensors is not the best way to go, we have ECU's in our car to control these things why wouldnt you let that expensive bit of equipment do its job correctly ?Again, please do some research into this matter. (IE: Operational parameters and tolerances)
Again, I STRONGLY suggest you do some research into what MAP actually means. (HINT: Do you know what air pressure there is at sea level? DO you know what MAP actually stands for?)
Again, before posting long winded replies, please read what MAP actually stands for.
Quote from: Thumper on February 28, 2009, 09:14:36As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?No, what I am simply saying is, if you want a higher power output than what a Tuningbox can provide, a ECU tune would be the preferred method. (Then again, ultimately I would use a completely separate engine management system if I was chasing ultimate power)The Con with programing the ECU is you 'could' remove the safety parameters built into the ECU, thus pushing the engine/driveline past it's operational tolerances.By modifying a sensors output, the ECU still has ultimate say in what happens to the engine. Go outside the operational safety parameters set by the factory, the ECU will limit any and all power to the engine. (How does the ECU know? By other sensors not touched by the tuningbox. IE: Like I have described before, the lambda sensor, airflow sensor, boost pressure, air inlet temp, Ect.)
As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09Remember the tuning boxes are sold to the general public to play with and are essentially a variable resistor (programable to a minimal extent via usb or not) and probably do more harm than good in the wrong hands, much like an ECU edit done by a tuner that is clueless could do the same damage. Again, a decent conversation with a tuner would sort the men from the boys but only if you know what to ask I doubt you can have this sort of conversation with a tuning box manufacturer over the phone.No, I have constant communications with a Bosch programmer/engineer who actually knows more about the Bosch ECU than a tuner would. (Since they design, manufacture and program the unit)
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I'ts not something the home mechanic has the hardware or knowledge to do as "easy" as you stated if it was then there would be kits available for the home tuner to do so and the software would be able to interperet the ecu software eeprom, this is what the tuning hardware/software for my other car does.If my 10year old car has this protection you can bet a new car has it and more (albiet you could brute force my 10 year old one in 24-48hrs) . R&D on something like this is time consuming and costly, in the other thread there was complaint that it was a 10minute operation, clearly this isnt the case.Correct, that is why I went straight to the source, the people that actually design, make and program the ECU. Hardware encryption/decryption dongles are wonderful items.
Quote from: EpOcH on February 28, 2009, 22:14:09I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. I think were getting there slowly 8)Likewise, I wish people to have factual information so they can make up their own minds in what they wish to do, without any personal, financial or otherwise clouding the outcome. Anyways, enough from me. I'll leave you all to think about what has been said here. (I will not be discussing this further, nor in any more detail than I have already.)
where do we get these tuning boxes again? can someone PM me please.who was the member down in geelong/victoria who got the tune box? i'd like to hear thier opinion of it.
This thread is an all time classic Poor old Epoch copping it from someone in 'Constant Touch with the Bosch ECU Engineers'. Thats some seriously funny stuff right there....now ask about blocking off the intercooler airflow to improve power and economy...thats another great chestnut right there Epoch. You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com. It doesnt have to make sense, and can happily defy both physics and logic, it just has to be thumpers opinion
...You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com.
Quote from: Martin on May 17, 2009, 00:34:08...You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com.For a bright bloke, it is rather immature of you to troll the forum...
...Then being a moderator have a look through the PMs I get from members here....
tbh i dont give much for what the fabricators says the tuning box does... i trust more on what ppl say that got the hardware installed and use it everyday..