[Master_Scythe]

Tonight I got very annoyed with the world and decided to debunk another piece of 'junk' in the world. (look a the Voltage Stabaliser thread in diesel modifications for my first attack, haha).

Since I'm about to own a diesel I decided to debunk "Diesel Conditioner" or... rather... prove it WORKS, is slightly risky (rubber corrosion, as the main ingredient is a solvent), but is REDICULOUSLY expensive.

First I found a diesel conditioner that is highly rated in all reviews, and is available at a large chain.
I decided on FlashLube's Diesel Conditioner (available at Supercheap Auto).
http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/diesel-fuel-conditioner.html
Ta-da!

Everyone loves it, everyone who uses it claims "a clogged filter, followed by great performance once changed" (aka. Its breaking down the junk in your fuel system, and the filter is catching it. This is a good thing; it works, both in theory and in user reviews.)

Next, I ventured into the science behind it. The Data sheets (thank god for 'safety' regulations FORCING them to publish this stuff). To which I found THIS!
http://www.flashlube.com/images/stories/pdfs/dieselfuelconditioner-datasheet.pdf


For the click lazy, and the less 'data sheet' enlightened of people, simply it says the active ingredients are:
Mixture containing severely refined base oils and additives
Solvent Naphtha     5-10%
Naphthalene     0.1-1%
Pseudocumene     0.1-1%
Mesitylene     0.1-1%

Basically what this means, is it has TWO ingredients.
1. Refined Oil (so... something thats not crude oil) 90%
2. Naptha (a basic solvent. Called SHELLITE in Australia) 10%
The rest of the ingredients are simply trace ammounts of Aromatic Hydrocarbons (in other words, that Naptha wasnt well refined).


As such, I went out looking for a DECENT refined oil; AKA, the BEST 'addative' I could give to boost the lubrication of my diesel.
What I found was this study (EXACTLY what I was looking for):
http://www.natbiogroup.com/docs/education/lubricity%20additive%20study%20results.pdf

Have a look for yourself, that one is EASY to understand. What I concluded from it, is a low ash 2 stroke oil is the cheapest and pretty damn effective additive when it comes to lubrication. (scroll down to read number 7 in the test).

It warns its not ULSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel) but in Australia this isnt a huge issue, and it also appears to only risk the particulate filter, not the engine (anyone with more knowledge on USLD step in here, this is the only bit I couldnt nail down).


Armed with this knowledge, then came the EASY part:

Supercheap Bottle of Diesel Conditioner = 50ml = $3 =
$60\L (or in bulk for like $40\L)

Shellite = 1L for about $5 + Outboard 2 Stroke Oil = 1L for $10 =  
Less than $10.50\L (10%, 90%)
As you have Shellite left over.


So what does this prove?
1. Diesel conditioner is Refined Oil + Naptha
2. Its BLOODY expensive
3. Its a solvent, so should be kept to low doses.
4. 2 Stroke oil really IS a better lubricant than Diesel
5. Its a simple home mix.

Hell, considering MOST diesel in Aus is B20 (20% biodiesel, which has better lube properties than DinoDiesel) you could PROBABLY just add 5ml of Naptha to your tank (which is whats in that bottle; 10% Naptha; 10% of 50ml = 5ml, the rest is oil)


Keep in mind, I take NO responsibility for any damage you do to your vehicle, but feel free to go over my research, debunk anything if you think i'm wrong, or thank me for saving you money. I'm pretty confident in my research, all the proof is there.

Hope this interests some; feel free to discuss this further, particularly the USLD as it appears to be an emissions thing only.

Thanks all, I'm heading to bed. Wonder what I'll attack next ><

[Dazzler]

I'm no tech head but your research is impressive (and I like your thought processing too)

If nothing else you will generate some interesting discussions (and hopefully save a few some money in the process)

I feel many will avoid doing it for fear of warranty issues...

[Master_Scythe]

How do additives affect warranty?

Clearly you dont want to tell the dealer you mixed Naptha and Oil into your fuel; but if you said "I used FlashLube Diesel Conditioner in the recommended dose" would that void your warranty?


I can understand people being worried about mixing things into their car, but as you agreed, I'm not just shooting blindly here.

If you look up the Top Gear Vegetable Oil video on youtube, you'll see how they DIY'd their own biodiesel using vegetable oil and  3ml per 1L of White Spirits (Otherwise known as Pine Turpentine outside the UK; Mineral Turps is slightly different, but basically any hydrocarbon that thins oil will do). They're basically following the same principle with the diesel conditioner.

A small ammount of thinning\cleaning agent, some form of oil (we actually have NO PROOF this is anything but 'cheap crap oil' used to help disperse the Naptha\make it look more impressive in the bottle; the 2stroke may be... actually considering cost, is LIKELY better). And thats it. The rest, being in as small a dose as 0.1% suggests they're using "100% hydrocarbons" and not caring whats in it, as long as its MOSTLY naptha.

I think the thing to remember is ANY form of additive will change your fuel and every 'cleaning agent' is a solvent, and could do SOME damage to your rubber fuel lines (even the best big brand; you cant get around needing a solvent to clean things).

Also to keep in mind, is how powerful a solvent fuel already is AND how low that concentration is that we're adding. Its clearly enough to break down sludge, but to eat through rubber? Fuel lines have to be resistant to harsh chemicals, if its doing ANY damage, it'll take years.

I guess; quite simply, we're being ripped off for Naptha+Oil in a bottle, and if you EVER use diesel cleaner (or possibly use it EVERY fill?) Mix your own. Use less Naptha to make it safer on your engine components, or use more for a once (yearly? Monthly?) full fuel system cleaning (just before a filter change maybe?).

As it happens I have both your suggested ingredients in my store-room. A teaspoon of naptha into 50 litre tank, who would have thought at that concentration it could do anything? I have heard of adding two-stroke oil to diesel but decided it was most likely bunkum. Perhaps with the lower sulphur...

I expected, based on your other thread, you were going to tell us it was rubbish.

A question: are you going to DIY?

[Master_Scythe]

Well, technically my other thread didnt say the idea was rubbish, just that the devices were. I mean.... tiny capacitors in a full size car? There are a lot of ways to increase grounding and to speed up battery 'response'. Just the ebay ones wont do it (you need a large cap like in an audio setup, 1+ farads) and it likely wont do anything noticible (it'll work, but you dont need it).

ANYWAY I digress; thats off topic, I'll keep it to the other thread


Me? Hell to the yes I will be DIY'ing. I'll likely run less naptha in my mix and use it every fill (<5%) with the 2stroke. so 2ml of Naptha to 48ml of 2Stroke. It cant hurt really. Its LESS harmful than what the OFFICIAL mix has.


The next thing I'd like to write would be what to add to your oil; but thats a LONG post as every brand is different. Quite simply; due to the new 'clean burning' oils; they can ALL benefit from added MOS2 (moly) and ZDDP (Zinc + Phospheros).

I dont think I'll write it because its just so variable depending on your oil choice.

Quite simply though:
If you run a low SAPS Oil, 20ml\L of "Redline Engine Oil Breakin Addative" (which is all phospheros and ZDDP) and 100ml of "Liqui-Moly Mos2" per full sump, at every change is a safe ammount and can only help.

You have only my word to go on on this, i'm aware. Unless you spend 3 days reading through BobIsTheOilGuy threads like I just did ><.

Once again I take no responsibility for your vehicle, but I myself will be running everything I talk about



EDIT: It may interest people I have a 91 mitsubishi galant currently, approaching 300,000km travelled, and its still going strong. No issues whatsoever. I've owned it for almost the last 100,000 (6 years now). Nothing I've ever researched and added has ever caused issues, only ever helped. I know there is no way to prove myself, but hopefully someone finds it all useful.

[agentr31]

fail...

its a diesel not a 2 stroke petrol...

if you want to run a diesel on oil get a W123 merc... "africa and the middle easts most favourite mercedes"
\

they will run on anything from kero - cooking oil

looking after your galant is probably what has allowed it to travel OVER 9000!!! not putting additives in the fuel...

regualar servicing, not being abusive and generally looking after the car will go a long way to helping it acheive big KM's

[Master_Scythe]

well... duh. Keeping in mind, in the most layman of terms, diesel is basically less refined petrol. Petrol with the oil left in. Hydrocarbons of petrol + the oil of... oil.


I didn't claim anything I'd done had allowed it to happen, i'm just saying its clearly not done ANY harm.
Long story short; I got my car back after a service and it would no longer fire on all cylinders
Due to a mechanic fecking up and not checking my sparkplugs at a service (but noting he did), the garage did a full strip down and rebuild of my engine. Everything was in perfect order (bar a small crack in the rocker cover, which was then alu-welded). They stripped that thing pretty severely to find out what they 'broke' in my last service (each time assuming their staff were correct in marking he had ALREADY checked the plugs).
Anywho; I thrash my car, flat foot 90% of driving and often miss services (I don't 'like' my car, and it only cost me $1k 6 years ago, so Its not my 'pride and joy' like my i30 shall be).
I wasn't trying to claim my doings made my car last awesomely, all I was saying was it hadn't done harm. Fuel lines and top of the engine were both in great condition for 300'000.


ANYWAY;

Rather than just attacking my post, how about you rebut it properly. ALL diesels will run on 2stroke alone (not well... and maybe damamging, but they'll start) and I have all the proof and links provided to back up my claims.

I actually contacted Valvoline last night to get some MSDS sheets for their 2stroke range, as I stupidly bought a bottle without realising its 'cleaning agents' are probably not just detergents, but also some basic solvents too; so I wont want to go adding Naptha to something that ALREADY has solvents in it.


Its quite clear mate,
Store bought diesel conditioner is 90% "refined oil" and 10% (unclean) Naptha; which level of 'refined oil' is your choice. and I'm still looking into the cleanest burning and most 'pure' source.

Catch is, 2stroke is proven to be WAY better than diesel is by default at lubricating the engine, its cheap, its been used by people for YEARS with no horror stories (as opposed to biodiesel, or other forms of fuel, yet people still happily 'try' just because its sold AT THE SERVO).

I'm happy to be the guineapig; just don't go attacking my hard work and attempts to help the community by shooting me down without ANY cited evidence to back up your claims.


Sorry if that sounds harsh, its not meant to, I dont wanna get into fights or start arguments, but come on man, I've backed up my claims.

Also Nappa, its 1006, you're wearing your scouter upside down.

[agentr31]

that you have (backed up your claims) and i back down *tips hat to you*

[Master_Scythe]

Thank you

Sorry to sound harsh before, I'd just put a lot of work in, and didnt want to be 'doubted' without some counter-research.

Anyway, I've spent the night looking at MSDS' of as many 2T oils as I can find in Australia.

Thus far the most 'pure' I can find is CASTROL 2T SELF MIX; containing less than 3% hydrocarbons (but containing 'proprietary additives').

The catch is the MSDS shows ONLY the toxicity report for the oil itself, meaning the other ingredients have to  be VERY small.

As opposed to the Outboard oil I purchased; and will be exchanging.
I got overexcited and purchased the 'best sounding' without research. (of course 'self cleaning' etc. means various solvents I dont want )

I'll be making a 15% Naptha mix for a 'monthly' clean when I get my car (as it'll be secondhand), then will run 5% with EVERY fill.

I've chosen this mix, as 10% (as shown in my first post) is whats used with 'diesel conditioner' which is labeled as OK to be used with every fill. Flashlube would be sued terribly if they took too much risk and killed engines.

So; 1.5x their strength for a cleaner, half their strength for a daily.
This along with a Moly, Phosphor and Zinc boosted Oil, and WaterWetter in the Radiator (note to self: NO! Research more. MSDS is SCARY on this one) Its ONLY safe WITHOUT the inhibitors (diesel version) and I'm gonna be running SWEET.

For laughs I added the Moly, phosphor and Zinc mix to my current petrol car to shut up the lifters. Engine is now 100% 'new' sounding, and my 'butt dyno' likes it too. BITOG forums are dangerous... got stuck there for 2 days reading, haha.


Man, I love consumer level chemistry. Isnt it amazing what we pay for through advertising?
Even scarier, is how many different oils are IDENTICAL when marked differently
(eg. the 5W-30 & 5W-40, in several brands I've looked up are IDENTICAL mixes of identical formulas; makes sense with most oil being paraffin based, it can handle EXTREME temps, the same CAN be used for multiple purposes. bloody advertising. A lot of 'Diesel Only' Oil is identical to its petrol oil of the same viscosity too.)

[Master_Scythe]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYH/is_24_6/ai_95571586/

Someone else got the idea too; and patented it.
Here's another laugh
http://www.powerservice.com/dfs/

INGREDIENTS:
Petroleum Distillates
Aromatic Hydrocarbons

rofl; so, its 100% Ethenol enriched petrol? haha.

Really this is all just proof that our diesel engines arent picky; should you want to add a small ammount of solvent to clean out the engine; or add a gallon\litre of petrol to your diesel for a Cetane boost; there are a billion companies risking their entire name on doing it.

Ah; consumerism. Gotta love it.

[Dazzler]

It is an interesting topic for sure...

[eyecon]

Can't argue with any of the points you make Master Scythe. Very intrresting indeed. I have made myself an unofficial guinea pig by using only castrol 2T oil in my car. I had used an outboard ashless two stroke oil, but reverted to the castrol oil after realizing my car doesn't have a DPF, so no need. I'm still impressed with the results, but do you see a need for me to perform a monthly engine flush the way you have described it? My own research seems to suggest my engine will be running cleaner because the engine is burning better.

[Master_Scythe]

That'd be impossible to figure out. (for a standard person)
EVERY diesel cleaner uses Naptha it seems, i've looked at a LOT now, so i'm pretty OK with using it.
If you add some Naptha, and your system doesn't 'improve', then I guess it was already pretty clean.

.. using only castrol 2T oil in my car...
.. I'm still impressed with the results...

Are you able to say what the impressive results are?

[eyecon]

More power, smoother acceleration, quieter engine. I'm going on a dyno somewhere after 29/11 to verify the power issue, but I will be doing a before and after comparison, which will mean it can take an extra week to get a true indication.

More power, smoother acceleration, quieter engine. I'm going on a dyno somewhere after 29/11 to verify the power issue, but I will be doing a before and after comparison, which will mean it can take an extra week to get a true indication.

I'm very interested in your thoughts on the results (thankyou) and any more scientific tests (the dyno). I have to admit (and you could have guessed ) to being a little sceptical.

I wondered why, for instance, if such a simple and cheap fuel additive produced measurably worthwhile results it wasn't just added by the fuel companies.

Maybe I'll just drop a bit of 2-stroke oil in and guage for myself. Oh... and a teaspoon of my favourite cleaner, Shellite.

[eyecon]

It's healthy to be a sceptic pip. That's why I'm happy to be a guinea pig. I always put my money where my mouth is. The power results will be one thing. The other thing of course that readers will be interested in will be of any detrimental effects to the engine with prolonged use. Early days yet. Only a few months in, but I'm a high km user & have 51ks on the clock so far. I travel about 5k a month so I guess my results will be accelerated a bit compared to other drivers. Incidentaly I don't have any additive in the tank at the moment. I like to switch every now and then to make sure I can feel a difference and that it's not in my mind.

[Master_Scythe]

Normally I'd agree with the 'Why is it not done by the fuel companies?' But n this instance I can think of a LOT of reasons.

Shellite isnt added by default for the sake of 'old equipment'. Ando things like tractors or generators that may see 1 tank a year, as opposed to a car with 1 tank a week\fortnight.

2Stroke isnt added, because its 'unclean' If our cars had DPF's or we had to pass strict smog rules like some US states do, It'd be a very different story. Since we dont, its pretty win.

2Stroke isnt added, because its 'unclean' If our cars had DPF's or we had to pass strict smog rules like some US states do, It'd be a very different story. Since we dont, its pretty win.

Of course... and the very reason I didn't choose a low SAPS oil. We did have a green member from NZ (and I think bought elsewhere) whom was very unhappy with the lack of DPF.

I did admire his principles but I'm more pragmatic.

[eyecon]

 Don't get me started about the Greens 

[Master_Scythe]

Yep; 2 stroke is designed for burning. Not much can go wrong really (besides wasting money).
Naptha is in EVERY addative; in very low ammounts. Seems like the only cleaning agent used anymore in cars engines. I'll give it a go

Low SAPS is the same; why would we, when those oil components are usually lubricating, and we dont have a DPF to mess up? If we can find 'old' Castrol Edge oil (not Castrol Edge Sport, in which the only difference was becoming low SAPS) its probably our best bet. (though I've decided on the Edge Sport if I cant find anything else; if its good enough for the Bugatti Veyron, its good enough for me! Also great UOA wear reports, and a nice additive package.)

 Just with eco-terrorists on the rampage, its hard to live an efficient life. Pushing for us to 'clean up' before the technology reaches the time when its affordable and easy to do, is just asking for hate and a waste of resources.