i30 Owners Club
GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => GENERAL => Topic started by: Fi30cw2009 on February 11, 2015, 06:46:09
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Hi folks. I've got a 2009 Hyundai i30cw 1.6 petrol which I bought secondhand in June 2013. I live in Finland where you can imagine we get all sorts of fun and exciting weather, but apart from its horrendous road noise and tendency to ice up the inside of the windscreen when it's around zero degrees, it's been a great car.
Until last week. I was doing about 100km/h on a motorway about half an hour into a journey, and approaching a long bend in the road. Just as I was about to enter the bend, my EPS and ESP lights both came on, and the car suddenly got heavier. Now I've had a car without power steering before this, so I was able to handle it, but on a wintry Finnish road at those speeds, it wasn't fun. I pulled over, switched the engine off and on again, and everything reinitialised (except the radio, which was off at the time, so I didn't notice it was wiped).
At first I looked around and found several threads, including some on this forum, about losing EPS and ESP at the same time. I have a cheapo Bluetooth-based OBDII reader so I checked the onboard computer for error codes, but found nothing. Then I turned the radio on and realised that all my settings were gone, which leads me to believe that I had a momentary electrical outage in the car which caused all the related systems to disable themselves.
So my questions are: what is the most likely cause(s) of such an outage, what should I be checking in the car (battery terminals and fuses, what else?) and is there anything else I should be aware of?
Thanks! My girlfriend doesn't want to get in the car anymore at the moment, so the sooner I get the cause isolated, the better! :confused:
[UPDATE] after three weeks, my car is back to a roadworthy state - basically, it seems that my power steering pump went defective for a still unknown reason. I ultimately replaced it with a secondhand part from a scrapyard.
- it is part number 563002L700, applicable to all models of i30 at least between 2008-2010
- my nearest Hyundai-certified service place quoted €2340 for a brand-new part shipped from Hyundai
- I found a secondhand part from a wrecked i30 for €450 plus €15 shipping
- the cost of labour for replacing the part was €300, which was about three hours' work
- the end cost of the replacement and work was €765 (not counting €105 I spent on a new battery during the process)
Comparing those two, I opted for secondhand (considering the price difference of almost 2K in parts cost alone!).
There is still a question of why my radio lost its settings, but it could have been a random fluke of some sort, or then erratic power supply caused by the faulty motor, or my old battery starting to drop in voltage; for now, I'm going to assume that it was the latter and entirely coincidental to the power steering failure, but I'll report back if it reoccurs. Since the battery was replaced, I'll probably never know for sure.
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Is your car Diesel or Petrol :question:
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Wow!, sorry to hear that!
Yes, scary to lose power steering suddenly at the best of times.. but on icy roads, even scarier.. :sweating:
BTW :wttc:
Very hard to hazard a guess.. Could have been a one of glitch or something more sinister. :undecided:
Hopefully someone more technically minded will have some ideas! :cool:
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Yes, this was a significant loss, so at this stage, I'd be checking all the Earth wiring including both the wire and the fixing point. Check for oil or rust or any other contaminant that could alter the conductivity. Secondly, I'm not sure if there are any, but I would look at all relays in the engine bay, for contamination on any contacts. This would require removal, cleaning and replacement. Even then, the actual relay may be faulty, too which would require replacement. Check also the fuse able links as well.
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Also check that the "memory fuse" is firmly seated in its slot; this can be found in the fuse panel inside the car.
Other than a total battery loss/disconnection (which didn't happen since you had warning lights lit) it's the only thing I can imagine that would wipe your radio.
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Also check that the "memory fuse" is firmly seated in its slot; this can be found in the fuse panel inside the car.
Other than a total battery loss/disconnection (which didn't happen since you had warning lights lit) it's the only thing I can imagine that would wipe your radio.
Thanks for the tips guys, I have never heard of a "memory fuse" but to be honest I've never felt the need to go poking too deeply into my Hyundai since I got it. (My previous car was a 1996 Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 which I got free from a friend, I did quite a lot of mechanical work on it replacing rusty parts and whatnot, but I haven't really ever delved much into automotive electrical systems. Also, these modern, enclosed engines are something of a mystery to me.)
I'll try to take a poke around tonight or tomorrow and I'll let you know if I find anything.
Now that I'm thinking about it, the battery did mysteriously drain itself overnight sometime during last year, but I jumped it from another car and it never reoccurred since, so I had assumed I had just left something switched on by mistake. Now I'm getting suspicious. Apart from that one time with the battery and a mysterious rattling noise coming from somewhere under the car when going over rough surfaces, I haven't had any major problems yet. That said, I just pass 65,000km (40,000 miles), so maybe it's just starting to reach that age where problems start to develop...
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(http://i.imgur.com/Kibe8vf.png)
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It would be good thing to check the voltages of your battery. The normal voltage, when motor is not running and the voltage when the motor is running. If the battery is in good condition you should get approx 12.7-12.8 volts when motor is off and over 14 volts when engine is running. You could also charge the battery with external charger.
If the battery has died previously it might have broken the battery. Batteries don't like to be dried out. Especially in subzero temps. And if they do go out, you should charge it with "intelligent" battery charger (älylaturi). Some of the more advanced models can recover worn out batteries with specialized charging modes.
If you only drive short distances the alternator doesn't have enough time to charge the (cold) battery. Common problem during the winter time. Especially if you have webasto or ebersprächer. Those just drain the battery dry so easily. Usually in modern cars when the voltage of the battery goes too low, the ABS and ESP are first things that are cut off. It would also make sense that the electric power steering would go off as well.
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Suspicious draining of the battery should always be thoroughly checked out. To drain a fully charged battery even overnight would require a noticeable drain, eg a light on or a fan running. Having been drained, some batteries never fully recover, as previously stated.
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Check the grounding connections as shown. Remove cables and grind the base and remember to give it some rust protection afterwards.
Bad grounding would give the same indication as a drained batteri.
(http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t370/Rasnik-1/i30%20stelkabler_2_zpsetbmcejq.jpg) (http://s1056.photobucket.com/user/Rasnik-1/media/i30%20stelkabler_2_zpsetbmcejq.jpg.html)
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Also, there is a known problem with -ve terminal connector on battery breaking if you have the one with the built in voltage/condition checker and it's been done up too tight (cars in Europe from roughly august 2009 onwards). if you have one of theses the connector is bigger than the one you see above.
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Also, there is a known problem with -ve terminal connector on battery breaking if you have the one with the built in voltage/condition checker and it's been done up too tight (cars in Europe from roughly august 2009 onwards). if you have one of theses the connector is bigger than the one you see above.
Interesting. How do they break?
I think I have similar connectors as in the picture. In my car the negative (-)connector is a piece of crap. The positive connector is a liile bit better but I've seen better. I had to bend the (-) connnector with pliers to get it tight enoug. Now it's starting to loose again. Looks like the connector can be tighten only couple of times before it becomes too loose. I'm going to change that as soon as the weather gets little warmer. Those original connectors have probably worst desing I have ever seen.
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they crack as they are not supposed to be done up tight so both sides touch. they are present on any car with the battery recuperation alternator. after sometime in 2010 they changes the design slightly so avoid it. im not sure the production dates.
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Just a quick update, after a hectic week at work and some terrible outdoors weather, I never managed to check the car, but hadn't seen any reoccurrence and was hoping it was just a random thing.
Then earlier today I was at the swimming pool with my boy, and upon leaving, found that my power steering was out again - EPS and ESP lights both on, and several restarts of the engine didn't change anything. The radio still remembered its stations this time though. I had to drive home without power steering (having just missed the closing times of the closest Hyundai service center by five minutes) and it seems like my EPS and ESP are dead for the time being.
Tomorrow afternoon I'm going to allocate a lump of time to looking around the car, but if I can't find anything obvious, I guess I'm gong to have to take it to a service center at the beginning of next week (and face bills potentially in the thousands judging by what I've read elsewhere, particularly if they feel the need to replace the steering column or something). I checked my Bluetooth OBD reader again, but still no error codes logged.
I'll keep this thread updated with my progress.
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It would be good thing to check the voltages of your battery. The normal voltage, when motor is not running and the voltage when the motor is running. If the battery is in good condition you should get approx 12.7-12.8 volts when motor is off and over 14 volts when engine is running. You could also charge the battery with external charger.
For whatever it's worth, I do recall the OBDII reader reporting the battery at 13.9 volts with the engine running. I'll check the engine off reading tomorrow morning. Is it indicative of something bad about the battery at this level?
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13,9 volts should be fine. I believe you need to go below 11 Volt or so before the various modules won't work.
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Fi30cw2009, Sorry to hear that! Hopefully the problem can be isolated to something simple and cheap to fix! :sweating:
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So I braved the weather and checked the car. Memory fuse was in solidly. All the battery terminals and grounding contact points looked fine, no corrosion or damage that I could tell. The battery gave an initial reading of 11.4V before turning the engine on, then 11.7-11.8 after turning engine on and off a few times (car tells me it's -8°C right now). It gave a more or less consistent 14.2V with the engine on. EPS and ESP continue to fail to turn on. I can upload some pics of the contacts a little later, if you need.
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I'm hoping because the ESP is not activating as well as the EPS that it is not the usual Power steering problem. :fingers:
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Sorry to hear of your troubles.
You mentioned you checked DTC's. Does your reader do all modules or just ECU? You should have a code if you have EPS light on but not in ECU.
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The battery gave an initial reading of 11.4V before turning the engine on, then 11.7-11.8 after turning engine on and off a few times (car tells me it's -8°C right now).
The voltage of the battery is too low. If it's 11.4 just sitting there, you can imagine that the voltage probably goes somewhere 10-9 volts when you cranck the starter motor. That could cause all sorts of electrical problems. If you have someone there to help, or long wires on the multimeter, measure the voltage when starting the motor. You should see voltage drop during cranking.
If the battery can be "serviced", you could check the water levels inside the battery (and add some distilled water).If it's sealed you could charge it with proper battery charger or buy a new one.
This is in Finnish, but I'll guess it's OK in this situation, as the patient is also from Finland. Here are detailed instrunctions about testing battery with multimeter and the allowed voltage limits: :link: Akun kunnon tarkistaminen ? AutoWiki (http://www.autowiki.fi/index.php/Akun_kunnon_tarkistaminen)
Basicly it says that full battery has more than 12.7V and with 11.64V there is about 10% of the capacity of the battery. When cranking the voltage should not go below 11-10V. And these are the values, when the engine is not on. Alternator is OK when the charging voltage is something between 13.5-14.4V.
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At 5 years its had a good enough life. Time for a new battery. Note the EPs light will stay on until you start up, steer full left, then full right, then turn the ignition off and back on.
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Slightly low battery with engine off is no cause for alarm. It must be starting if he started and stopped the engine several times.
Lets not forget it was -8c at time of testing. And we don't know how long he had the door open looking at stuff before taking reading.
A running voltage of 14.2v means all should be fine when driving.
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A running voltage of 14.2v means all should be fine when driving.
That indicates that the aternator is OK. Still, the 11.4 is way too low, even it was -8C.
One possibility is to go to a somewhere where they do battery tests. That shows the general condition, maximum currents etc. Costs probably something between 10-20€, but in my opinion you could save that money for new battery.
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Do a drop test while engine off.
This will confirm whether battery needs replacing
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Good replies so far, thanks. Considering the age of the battery and the stresses of Finnish winters, it's probably about time I replace it in any event, so I'll pick one up and hope that is what has been causing the problems. I'll get back to you again once I have tested that theory out.
Thanks for all the helpful answers and suggestions so far! What a great forum :-)
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Good replies so far, thanks. Considering the age of the battery and the stresses of Finnish winters, it's probably about time I replace it in any event, so I'll pick one up and hope that is what has been causing the problems. I'll get back to you again once I have tested that theory out.
Thanks for all the helpful answers and suggestions so far! What a great forum :-)
Any good battery shop should be able to do the drop test before you buy new battery
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Well, it doesn't seem to be the battery either, EPS and ESP are still off after swapping it out for another. I assume they should automatically reinitialise if the battery is switched? I also tried the steering wheel thing, but no change. I'm hoping my cheapo ELM 327 reader simply isn't worth much and there's a stored error code that I'm not accessing, but right now, I don't see many other options than taking it to a service place tomorrow.
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ELM327 wont show you codes for much except the engine, you need something similar to a Delphi ds150e, like discussed in a recent thread.
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Elm327 = €25 ($35)
Delphi €2400 ($ 3500)
Bit of a price difference. Not really a consumer product, the Delphi.
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It's a shame that the battery change did not help. The system should reinitialize itself when the car is restarted and the fault is fixed. Some car brands might need a fault reset with manufacturers diagnostic software but I'm not sure if Hyundai is one of those brands. Can anyone confirm that? Cruiserfied?
I got service call from Hyundai some time ago. They wanted to change the brake light switch. Has that been changed in to your car? It was a "warranty" service eventhoug the warranty had run out in my car... There was some sort of manufacturing problem in that part. I believe that has caused some problems with cruise controls and other units. You guys might know more about that topic. Does the brake light switch affect to ABS and ESP?
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Yes I also had the brake light switch replaced by Hyundai outside of warranty. There have been a recall from Hyundai about that.
The switch does affect the ABS, Cruise control & ESP, but i don't see how it can cause a total power loss.
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Yes I also had the brake light switch replaced by Hyundai outside of warranty. There have been a recall from Hyundai about that.
The switch does affect the ABS, Cruise control & ESP, but i don't see how it can cause a total power loss.
I got that done last year, it was right at the end of the manufacturer's warranty period. I also got some other minor work done under warranty at the same time (right rear door handle snapped off, and rear window water pump stopped working). I didn't have any electrical or battery-related issues at that time.
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So I took my car in for inspection. I only spoke briefly with the guy a while later, and didn't get the exact fault codes, but basically he said that the steering column needed replaced and they'd need to order the part from overseas (Sweden). He couldn't tell me the cost because he'd have to check into it, but he'll call me back once he knows, tonight or tomorrow.
I can't be entirely sure, but I caught a snippet of conversation between that guy and a mechanic, and I very definitely heard the sum of 3800 euros mentioned. I suspect they were discussing my car. I fear the worst.
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Elm327 = €25 ($35)
Delphi €2400 ($ 3500)
Bit of a price difference. Not really a consumer product, the Delphi.
Dave you can pick up a copy for about £50 - £60 full delphi software and reader.
Lorian as bought one and I've tried one
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So I took my car in for inspection. I only spoke briefly with the guy a while later, and didn't get the exact fault codes, but basically he said that the steering column needed replaced and they'd need to order the part from overseas (Sweden). He couldn't tell me the cost because he'd have to check into it, but he'll call me back once he knows, tonight or tomorrow.
I can't be entirely sure, but I caught a snippet of conversation between that guy and a mechanic, and I very definitely heard the sum of 3800 euros mentioned. I suspect they were discussing my car. I fear the worst.
:scared: :faint:
Before ordering it, ask the service manager what they will do (or not do) in the case replacing the steering column didn't cure the problem. If they would refuse to put the old parts back and refund the price of steering column, go to an another garage. There are too many garages interested only for maximum ripoff instead of good service. Also, it may be worth of asking for a second-hand steering column from scrap yards.
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Hard to believe that it would cost 3800€. With 3800€ you can buy a whole crashed car with a working steering column. If that is the price for the job, ask how much are the parts and how much is the labour. If the total is 3800€ I'd recommend second hand column or buy it from some other place (you could also ask the cost of the labour from other company). Dealers have ridiculous spare part prices here... If course the actual work is expensive, might be more expensive than the needed parts. I hope you heard some other guys service price.
I paid almost 300€ when I bought fuel filter assembly from the dealer. I could have got the same part from Koraps with 100€ + shipping.
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Well, I've been reading other threads (such as :link: Hyundai i30 SX 2009 (Australia) power steering failure (https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=31090.0) from six months ago) and on other forums too, and those who have had similar problems have reported the cost as being really high. One guy in the UK was out over £2000 (~2700 EUR) and in the thread I linked, he was talking about AU$3800 (~2500 EUR), both for steering column replacements in similar model and age Hyundais. At those price points, and allowing for the "everything is more expensive in Finland for no apparent reason" tax, something in the mid-3000s sounds about right to get it done here. I'm not holding my breath on this one.
On that note, any tips on where to find secondhand parts would be much appreciated. I've tried avk.fi and eah.fi, and some of the repair garages in Tattarisuo. It seems like I'm after the secondhand car part equivalent of the Holy Grail.
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So I went and got my car from the service center. I still never heard back from the first guy I spoke to (although he promised to call by lunchtime today, which was two hours ago), so I don't know the cost or availability of the part I need. However, I did get a copy of the service report, such as it is, and a bill for 36 euros for reading the computer. The EPS was functioning for the first minute or so of my drive, so I'm guessing they reset the computer at some point and it was just playing catch-up.
The report unfortunately doesn't contain notes of any error codes (I asked the greasemonkey who gave it to me, but he just shrugged noncommittally and said "That's all there is") but it has a note that the car needs a replacement steering column power steering motor (in Finnish, ohjaustehostimen moottori uusittava). If that's the right translation, and more especially if parts can be switched between various models and engine sizes, then it should possibly be easy enough to source (I believe it's this: :link: 2009 Hyundai i30 1.4 petrol Power Steering Motor Ecu steering Shaft | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2009-Hyundai-i30-1-4-petrol-Power-Steering-Motor-Ecu-steering-Shaft-/141579448153?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20f6caef59)). Unfortunately that's something I don't know too much about, though.
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Small update: I contacted another Hyundai service center (Laakkonen) with the info I'd gotten so far, and they said the part was available to order - but there was something about it being linked to the axle assembly, and I'd need to buy the thing as a unit. They quoted 2340 euros for the part, plus labour, so I'd probably be looking close to 3000 euros anyway.
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And that, gentlemen, is why i want a workshop manual. Not to potter around myself so much, but just to be able to coroborate what i'm thinking and know how the car is put together.
I've always had a factory workshop manual for evry car and motor bike i've ever owned...... until now :headbang:
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It is possible to purchase "copied" :whistler: manuals on line but they are 15 GB compressed and wouldn't cover your latest model vehicle. It seems Hy's policy is to supply every model, year and variant they've ever made, which is why the files are so large. 80% of the content is redundant. It can be handy for all the torque bolt settings and specifications for limits, e.g. brake pads, oils, etc.
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I see, very helpfull.
The size isn't a problem (said the barmaid to the vicar) coz i have flat rate internet 180 Mb/s, but if it isn't available for my modern jalopy, that's moot.
Thanks anyway.
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Did they give you the part number? Or is there a place/software where you can find i30 part numbers? It is so much easier to find parts online when you have the right number.
You could also check if they have it at koraps.com. May take few weeks to deliver but price should be way smaller than here in Finland. There were quite a few wrecked i30s at avk.fi couple of days ago and some of the cars are being sold as parts. You could call there and ask if they could sell you that part.
At koraps.com there seemed to be some steering columns for sale, but hard to tell if they are right ones. The seem to cost approx 1200$. If you can find one there at least it's a bit cheaper.
Is this the right part? Only 450€... :link: Ohjaustehostimen Pumppu Sähköinen - Hyundai i30 -08 - V44487 (http://varaosahaku.fi/fi-fi/Hyundai/HYUNDAI-i30/2007_2012/Etuakselisto-&-Jousitus-&-Ohjauslaitteet/Ohjaustehostimen-Pumppu-S%C3%A4hk%C3%B6inen/Kaikki/ID-29858215/?page=1&order=quality&asc=1&parttype_id%5B0%5D=0)
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Is this the right part? Only 450€... :link: Ohjaustehostimen Pumppu Sähköinen - Hyundai i30 -08 - V44487 (http://varaosahaku.fi/fi-fi/Hyundai/HYUNDAI-i30/2007_2012/Etuakselisto-&-Jousitus-&-Ohjauslaitteet/Ohjaustehostimen-Pumppu-S%C3%A4hk%C3%B6inen/Kaikki/ID-29858215/?page=1&order=quality&asc=1&parttype_id%5B0%5D=0)
Unfortunately not, and the guy at Laakkonen double-checked the same thing - it's not the pump I need, it's the actual motor (at least, according to the people at Teboil). The pump is available quite widely and seems to be more common, so having to replace the whole assembly is (hooray for me) apparently very unusual.
I have a friend who has a much better class of OBD reader, so I'll be borrowing that tomorrow evening, and I'll try and dig out the error codes for myself. I'll also try and get the part number of the power steering motor (yes, ohjaustehostimen moottori) from the Laakkonen people, as well as a quote on labour and projected total costs.
Thanks for the tip about koraps.com, I'll take a look there.
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I still don't fully understand the whole reason for replacing the axle assembly though. I've been trying to read up on this, and as far as I can tell, the motor itself is simply a part of the steering column. Or are they compelled to replace the whole assembly for safety reasons, if the motor has been acting up? Here are some images that helped me to visualise it. In the larger image (MDPS.jpg), the blue thing just south of the steering wheel is the motor itself (these are for an i10 but should be broadly applicable to an i30). Anybody care to chime in on this aspect of it?
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I cannot see the reason why there has to be so much electronics in the steering system: :link: Hyundai Power Steering (MDPS) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1S9LhNsN8I)
Older non electric power steering used to be "bullet proof".
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Hard to tell how the motor has been assebled there. Usually those "non-fixable" parts can be fixed.The motor has been assebled to the steering system at the factory, so I should come also off. It's more likely that the manufacturer does not want to sell one cheap part. It's better for them If they make these "bigger parts" which include huge amount of small cheap parts.
Here's a good example of modern car dealers.
:link: Toyota Hybrid cheap fix - the dealer wanted 00... - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/gallery/j8Bcp/)
No dealer want to actually fix something. They just want to put new parts instead of fixing the broken one. And that happens in all consumer products from TV's to cars. And the consumer pays the price...
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I looked the pictures and those parts that are for sale. There is that round cylinder "part" in this assembly. :link: Ohjaustehostimen Pumppu Sähköinen - Hyundai i30 -08 - V44487 (http://varaosahaku.fi/fi-fi/Hyundai/HYUNDAI-i30/2007_2012/Etuakselisto-&-Jousitus-&-Ohjauslaitteet/Ohjaustehostimen-Pumppu-S%C3%A4hk%C3%B6inen/Kaikki/ID-29858215/?page=1&order=quality&asc=1&parttype_id%5B0%5D=0)
Isn't that the actual motor?
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Great to see one Finish member helping another (great work sundiz) :goodjob:
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The electric steering system is very complex. There are no "pumps" in the system at all.
To move the wheels, the system needs to know the new angle required, AND ALSO THE RATE AT WHICH THE DEFLECTION IS REQUIRED. This means that the sensor needs to determine the amount of deflection from straight ahead and also how much force is being applied to the steering column by the driver, then translate that, electrically, to the steering rack. The sensor is a combined position and rate of change sensor. Add to this, 3 rates of steering effect and pretty soon you require a lot of electronics to achieve it. There is also electronics to detect faults as well.
I can't see any reason not to replace the unit with a 2nd hand one from a known vehicle which hasn't been in a severe accident, preferably rear ended. As long as the model and mechanical specs are identical, it should work.
Whether electric is better than hydraulic, who knows. :Dunno:
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Great to see one Finish member helping another (great work sundiz) :goodjob:
I think we all would have some better use for 3000€ than byuing a new powersteering pump. And we have this nice forum where people actually help each other, so I'll try to do my best. I've gotten some good tips and help here so I'll try to give something back.
In my opinion the pricing of the new parts is not from this planet. I would like to know how much it would cost if you would buy the whole car as parts... If you byu new i30 it costs something between 22000-30000€ depending on equipment etc. And that's a whole car. And they get even profit from that. How can a single "part" cost over 2000€. A full engine with that price tag would be ok, but a steering column assembly. Not OK.
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Great to see one Finish member helping another (great work sundiz) :goodjob:
I think we all would have some better use for 3000€ than byuing a new powersteering pump. And we have this nice forum where people actually help each other, so I'll try to do my best. I've gotten some good tips and help here so I'll try to give something back.
In my opinion the pricing of the new parts is not from this planet. I would like to know how much it would cost if you would buy the whole car as parts... If you byu new i30 it costs something between 22000-30000€ depending on equipment etc. And that's a whole car. And they get even profit from that. How can a single "part" cost over 2000€. A full engine with that price tag would be ok, but a steering column assembly. Not OK.
Totally agree. This expensive (but fortunately rare) steering failure issue was one of the reasons I opted to update the wife's CW to a new Tourer after 4 years (before the warranty ran out)
I believe there may be cheaper ways to repair it (or use 2nd hand parts) but they don't make it easy for us to find that path! :Pout:
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For those interested, here's a small sample of what we're dealing with, This is just the sensor.
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I think we all would have some better use for 3000€ than byuing a new powersteering pump. How can a single "part" cost over 2000€. A full engine with that price tag would be ok, but a steering column assembly. Not OK.
Totally agree. This expensive (but fortunately rare) steering failure issue was one of the reasons I opted to update the wife's CW to a new Tourer after 4 years (before the warranty ran out)
Unfortunately, given the relative value of the car (two years ago I paid 16k for it, I can buy one now with similar mileage for around 10-12k), there don't seem to be many sensible options other than to just pay the 3k and hope to use the car for many more years. If I'd sell it, with the defect, I'd get maybe 6-7k at most. And then I'd still have to buy a new car! I haven't quite paid this one off yet - would have been fully paid by the end of this year.
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If you can hang in there for a few more days hopefully someone will come up with a cheaper solution. That's the worst thing about this site.. Almost too much information at times! :undecided:
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Well, my friend just showed up with a slightly better OBD reader than mine (a Quicklynks T40), so I'll give that a go tonight and see if I can pull any useful codes from the onboard computer. However, given the nature of the problem and based on other threads I've looked at, I would put money on them being C1259 (EPS failure/steering angle sensor) and C1290 (torque sensor).
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I looked the pictures and those parts that are for sale. There is that round cylinder "part" in this assembly. :link: Ohjaustehostimen Pumppu Sähköinen - Hyundai i30 -08 - V44487 (http://varaosahaku.fi/fi-fi/Hyundai/HYUNDAI-i30/2007_2012/Etuakselisto-&-Jousitus-&-Ohjauslaitteet/Ohjaustehostimen-Pumppu-S%C3%A4hk%C3%B6inen/Kaikki/ID-29858215/?page=1&order=quality&asc=1&parttype_id%5B0%5D=0)
Isn't that the actual motor?
Now I have no idea. I emailed one guy who asked if I meant the pump, and I told him that the mechanic specificially wrote 'motor'. He responded by saying that the pump and the motor are the same thing - it's a motor, sure, but it's named as a pump. (His original response in Finnish: Tuo on pumpun nimikkeellä, mutta sähkömoottorihan tuo meidän osa on... Kysy tarkennus mekaanikoltasi mitä osaa hän tarkoittaa.)
Can anyone else shed light on this?
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It would make sense that it is just a naming issue.
I would believe that the part is still named as "power steering pump" eventhoug it is a motor. Especially in finnish. There has been powersteering pumps for decades and now then the pump is replaced by the motor in electric systems, people still continue to call them pumps.
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It's a electric motor and as such not a pump (coz it doesn't pump any liquids round).
They probably call it a pump because in the olden days it was a hydraulic pump driven by the engine. But basically they do the same thing but electric power steering is IMHO more prone to failure because of the electronics and sensors.
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Here is picture of the steering column system in i30 1.6 petrol 2009. There is only a few components in that system. So it would make sense that they call that number 2 as a power steering pump.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/huihaiohjaus.jpg)
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Just a quick update, I tried with the T40 but still couldn't find any error codes. I guess the garage might have wiped the ECU, but given that the problem came back again as soon as I took the car away, I would imagine the fault code would have re-registered. It's very strange.
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Don't think you'll see a C1259 code even if it is present with that T40. According to my list its not reported by the engine ECU, but one of the others. The Engine ECU only reports a lot of P codes and a few U codes, no C codes.
I don't recall (I'm getting old) but did the people who had the C1259/rack swap previously also have ESP light lit? Not just EPS?
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I don't recall (I'm getting old) but did the people who had the C1259/rack swap previously also have ESP light lit? Not just EPS?
I was looking for threads with the same scenario as mine, so yeah, those others with the rack swap also had both ESP and EPS lights lit.
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I wonder if the Kia Ceed has the same "power steering pump"? I believe that Kia and Hyundai have used same parts in i30 and ceed. At leas some parts have Kia and Hyundai logos in them. Kia is more popular car here in Finland than Hyundai, so it could be easier to find second hand parts from Kia. Prices of the 2nd hand Ceed power steering pumps start around 250€. But that all depends on if they have used the same pump in Kia and Hyundai... Do Hyundai and Kia have the same part number for certain part or do they use different numbers for same parts?
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I'd be careful there as the Kia and Hy may have different steering designs, e.g. number of turns lock to lock. If they were not identical, I would imagine there would be fault codes and maybe even a fail safe drive home mode in effect. The steering shaft length may also be different, too.
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Good thought though Sundiz, worth further investigation maybe! :goodjob: (subject to Phil's concerns) :cool:
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I wonder if the Kia Ceed has the same "power steering pump"? I believe that Kia and Hyundai have used same parts in i30 and ceed. At leas some parts have Kia and Hyundai logos in them. Kia is more popular car here in Finland than Hyundai, so it could be easier to find second hand parts from Kia. Prices of the 2nd hand Ceed power steering pumps start around 250€. But that all depends on if they have used the same pump in Kia and Hyundai... Do Hyundai and Kia have the same part number for certain part or do they use different numbers for same parts?
I dunno about that, but I found one from a 2010 i30 1.4 for 450€ (plus shipping, since it's located somewhere a few hundred kilometers away) . I just want to confirm, to the best of your knowledge, will this be parts-compatible with my 2009 i30cw 1.6?
The part: :link: Autovahinkokeskus - Ohjauksen Tehostinpumppu HYUNDAI I30 (https://www.avk.fi/Shop/Part/Part/419082) in Finnish, but you can switch language in the top right corner.
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As long as yours is LHD I think that will work.
I would suggest putting your head down around your pedals and have a look. You should be able to see the part numbers on yours.
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Does that advert tell you the history of the part (is it from a wreck or some other event) any warranty?
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Nope, it's purely a parts listing with some technical data (you can run the link through Google Translate if that helps). I'm not even sure if they keep a record of that info, but I'll contact the seller and ask about history and warranty.
Actually if you go to photo 12 in the item's set, you can see that the car has had a driver's side mid-body collision. The airbag has clearly deployed too. I have no way of knowing if it would affect the power steering pump, or how this affects the risk involved in using such a part. However, the description says the part quality is A2/TÄYDELLINEN, NORMAALIKUNT.OSA which translates as: A2/perfect, normal condition part. Basically they're saying it's in great shape and undamaged.
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Prices of the 2nd hand Ceed power steering pumps start around 250€
From the link I posted, the original Hyundai part number is 563002L700 - I'll try and check it against my own car when I get home, but I didn't find any other parts with the same part number on that same website (avk.fi). Where have you seen these Kia Ceed power steering pumps? If they have the same part number on the label, as well as the same Hyundai/Kia logos, then I'd venture a guess that they're the same part.
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Thanks for clarifying that. Bit of a lottery (but you could be on a winner) :fingers:
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Bit of a lottery (but you could be on a winner) :fingers:
:undecided:
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Prices of the 2nd hand Ceed power steering pumps start around 250€
From the link I posted, the original Hyundai part number is 563002L700 - I'll try and check it against my own car when I get home, but I didn't find any other parts with the same part number on that same website (avk.fi). Where have you seen these Kia Ceed power steering pumps? If they have the same part number on the label, as well as the same Hyundai/Kia logos, then I'd venture a guess that they're the same part.
:link: Ohjaustehostin pumppu Kia Ceed 1.6 16V CRDi 5/HB (#411892) - Autopurkaamot.com - varaosan tiedot: (http://www.autopurkaamot.com/naytaosa.php?id=411892&osa=ohjaustehostin%20pumppu&vhaku=46),897,22,313&sivu=
The part number seems to be 563001H100 with Kia. So the last numbers differ. Impossible to say what those last numbers and letters mean. Much more safer to get one with exact same number as yours. I think the 450€ version is much more reasonable solution than the +2000€ part from the dealer...
I wouldn't be worried about that the part is from crashed car. The pump itself is located inside the cabin, so small damage in the front should not be a problem.
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So I went and had a poke and prod in the car, but I can't find any good angle to check the label on the existing pump. Anybody got ideas about its orientation or how I can see the stickers (preferably without dismantling the dashboard)? It would be nice to totally confirm the part numbers before proceeding.
That said, I did find a barcode sticker with Daewoo's name on it, so I guess that Daewoo, Hyundai, Kia and others share a lot of parts.
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I dunno about that, but I found one from a 2010 i30 1.4 for 450€ (plus shipping, since it's located somewhere a few hundred kilometers away) . I just want to confirm, to the best of your knowledge, will this be parts-compatible with my 2009 i30cw 1.6?
Well, I think I answered my own question. I searched for the part number, and I find it on 2008, 2009 and 2010 model i30s (for example, this Swedish site lists the same part number from all three years of vehicle: :link: Bildelsbasen.se - Sveriges största utbud av bildelar (http://www.bildelsbasen.se/se-sv/OEM/563002L700/?listmode=2&pagesize=30&page=1&order=price&asc=0)) so I'm 99.5% confident that it's the right one. I'm going to order it, and book a time with a mechanic to get the part changed over. Frankly, I'll just be happy when it's all done and I can start to use my poor neglected car again! :(
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Got everything crossed for you.. :fingers:
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So the part has arrived (somewhere, at some depot where I have to collect it and pay COD because the payment system wasn't working on the website of the place I got it from) and I made a garage appointment for Monday morning to get it replaced. Hopefully I'll have a working car again on Monday afternoon - only three weeks after my problem started! :(
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Fingers crossed all goes well for you....
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:whsaid:
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And so the deed is done. 300 euros for labour, meaning the total cost has dropped from the original estimate of around 2700 euros, to a delightfully manageable 865 euros. Phew! The drive back from the garage felt like I was in a whole new car (probably heightened by the fact that I've been borrowing the in-laws' auto transmission Volvo for the past few weeks). Let's just see if it all holds together now!
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Well done, you're one lucky ba%#$rd. Thats a fantastisc score and a very interesting price.
Hope all stays well. :fingers:
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I'm glad to hear the problem is fixed. Let's hope it stays this way. I believe 300€ for labour is fair price. I would believe that removing and reassembly of the pump will take several hours. At least you got the job done with much more reasonable price than the dealer suggested.
Were there any signs in the broken part that what was actually broken? Mechanical wear? Burned electronics?
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I'm glad to hear the problem is fixed. Let's hope it stays this way. I believe 300€ for labour is fair price. I would believe that removing and reassembly of the pump will take several hours. At least you got the job done with much more reasonable price than the dealer suggested.
Were there any signs in the broken part that what was actually broken? Mechanical wear? Burned electronics?
Well, I dropped the car off in the morning at 7:30, and they messaged me around 12:30 that it was ready to be picked up, so that's less than five hours. I'm guessing something like 100 euros an hour, but the bill isn't itemised for that.
Regarding the part itself, I'm not sure because I had to rush away elsewhere, but I still have the old part in the back of the car. It was fairly grimy and a bit rusty. If you're interested in looking at it in more detail, you're welcome to stop by and pick it up :)
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Finnish branch of i30ownersclub had a meeting today. In other words I met Fi30cw2009 on a parking lot in a freezing rain :D.
He was very kind and gave the old broken power steering assembly to me for closer inspection. I'll try to find out what actually broke or caused the malfunction (and is it possible to fix it). It has some mild rust on the surface, but should be OK. Moving and sliding surfaces seem to be fairly clean and lubricated. At first look the mechanical structure is pretty solid. Lots of screws to open...
I got to go pick my tools from the garage tomorrow and disasseble this unit properly. I'll guess I try opening it tomorrow. Or at least in the weekend.
The patient:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4765.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4767.jpg)
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Finnish branch of i30ownersclub had a meeting today. In other words I met Fi30cw2009 on a parking lot in a freezing rain :D.
He was very kind and gave the old broken power steering assembly to me for closer inspection. I'll try to find out what actually broke or caused the malfunction (and is it possible to fix it). It has some mild rust on the surface, but should be OK. Moving and sliding surfaces seem to be fairly clean and lubricated. At first look the mechanical structure is pretty solid. Lots of screws to open...
I got to go pick my tools from the garage tomorrow and disasseble this unit properly. I'll guess I try opening it tomorrow. Or at least in the weekend.
The patient:
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4765.jpg)
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4767.jpg)
:goodjob2: :happydance: :goodjob:
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:whsaid: :brilliant: Look forward to further info! :happydance:
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Top job all round.
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It will be interesting to see what is found during the postmortem by sundiz. If the faulty item is recoverable it should lead to considerable savings for members should they encounter the same problem. I am looking forward to the next post by sundiz.
Great result
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I suspect all will look perfectly normal inside. The real working component measures the torque placed on it by turning the wheel and checking the correct operation of that, will be very difficult.
But, do continue. :razz:
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I was filming a video of the disassembly, but I just noticed that the battery of the camera had run out right after I started. But I took few pics also...
Metal "holder" which connencts the power steering assembly to the car had to be removed before the housing of the electronics could be opened. I noticed that one of the brackets was really bent. It looks like the mechanic had to use some brutal force when he removed this from the car. You can see the bent bracket in the pictures I posted previously (in the middle of the assembly, on the left side.)
After removing the bracket it was easy to remove the cover and the PCB. There were lots of white heat transfer "glue" over the two large capacitors. After cleaning them from the heat paste they seemed to be ok. Atleas they were not exploded and nothing was leaking out of them. That was a bummer. Those would have been easy and cheap to replace.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/04032015159.jpg)
The PCB seems to be soldered to connectors after adding the metal housing on the other side. I was not able to remove the metal so that I could see the other side of the PCB. I think I need to do some soldering in the weekend to remove the PCB from the housing. That seems to be the only way to get to the other side open for inspection. I think I need remove and check all the large capacitors, because those are usually the first ones to break down. Visually they looked fine...
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/04032015164.jpg)
After removing few screws more the actual motor came off. There were some nasty looking crap in the solders of the motor.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/04032015166.jpg)
After cleaning them the actual solder seemed to be fine. Usually brushless motors are quite reliable, so I'll focus now on checking other things first. Personally I believe that the problem is somewhere in the electronics: the PCB or the sensor.
So one bolt and few screws later the assembly looks like this (the smaller screws are not in the pic :D):
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/04032015162.jpg)
I need get pliers to remove locking washer over the axel. That seems to hold the cover which protects the sensor around the axel.
All mechanical parts felt really sturdy. All parts seemed to be tight and I was not able to find any worn out parts or washers.
To this point it has been really easy job to do (if a trained monkey like me can do it in under 30min). Only thing you need is a few torx keys, hex key, a 17mm spanner.
Just starting to wonder why they want to replace the whole assembly if it is this easy to disassemble.
To be continued...
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:Agoodpost: :ta:
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Parts were just lying on the floor. The axel of the electric motor started to look like it was little off centered. Fi30cw2009 mentioned that mechanic had said that the motor is broken. Hard to tell that did he get some fault code that indicated that the actual motor is busted or did he ment that the "motor" (the whole assembly) is busted. Well I wasn't going to play with the parts today, but this happened when I pushed the motors axel with my fingers.
:link: Hyundai i30 power steering motor - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBI_m3T0A1k)
Is is supposed to do that? Or did we find the cause for the problem? I guess I'll be opening that motor...
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Parts were just lying on the floor. The axel of the electric motor started to look like it was little off centered. Fi30cw2009 mentioned that mechanic had said that the motor is broken. Hard to tell that did he get some fault code that indicated that the actual motor is busted or did he ment that the "motor" (the whole assembly) is busted. Well I wasn't going to play with the parts today, but this happened when I pushed the motors axel with my fingers.
:link: Hyundai i30 power steering motor - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBI_m3T0A1k)
Is is supposed to do that? Or did we find the cause for the problem? I guess I'll be opening that motor...
Definitely doesn't look right! Bushes worn out?
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Very interesting. Motor looks busted :D
Soldering looks ok, just flux not cleaned off I think?
What's the manufacturer, voltage and temperature ratings for the Capacitors? Are they SamYoungs?
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Can't see any fault with the motor shaft. I assume the shaft is held in place by the now removed top cover, so naturally it will wobble. Looks like it was being held by magnets fixed around the edge, that would be expected.
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I assume the shaft is held in place by the now removed top cover, so naturally it will wobble.
That is the motor there are no other "covers". That wobbly axel goes straight up in to the steering column. The wobbly axel head has some sort of rubbery insert. I believe that works as some kind of shock absorber between the axel of the steering column and the axel of the electric motor. I try to check if the steering column axel centers the motor axel (and stop the wobble). Even if it would center the motors axel the rubbery insert will allow some sort of wobble, I think...
I tried to see if the motor could be disassembled, but there were no screws or bolts anymore. Do they use heat expansion in the assembly of these smaller motors. I know that in larger motor that is a common trade. I don't know the english word for that process but I mean that when they cool down the axel and heat the surroundings. Then they assemble the parts and when the temperatures goes back to normal the two parts stay together like they were built from one piece. If thats the way they have assembled this motor I believe a sledge hammer could be the next tool I need.
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Thanks sundiz. :goodjob2:
Yes, they use the same method of fixing the pins of aeroplane wings to the fuselage on 747's.
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Thanks sundiz. :goodjob2:
Yes, they use the same method of fixing the pins of aeroplane wings to the fuselage on 747's.
and flywheel gear rings, and bearings etc, etc. To many things to mention
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Boy those lock washers around the axels were real pain in the ass. Spend over an hour removing three lock washers :-[. I definately need new lock washer pliers.
I opened the covers of the optical axel sensor. That seemed to be in good (clean) condition. I tested the two LEDs on the sensor PCB and they worked as intented. Also the optical fibre prism thingy was fine.
Real blurry pic. Camera did not want to cooperate.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4770.jpg)
I tried to solder the connectors off the PCP so that I could check the other side of the board. Unfortunately the connectors are so massive and there are huge copper areas on the board that my soldering irons small tips weren't able to produce enough heat. Good tips for smd soldering but pretty much useless with stamp size copper areas. I'll need to find my heat gun somewhere so I can remove those sonnectors.
There are 3 electrolythic capasitors on the PCB. Manufactured by Epcos? Never heard of that company... 2x 1800µF 35V. I guess the temperature rating is 105*C. Product number B41858-S7188-M10. And one 180µF 35V 105*C. Can't read the product number of the smaller one.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4772.jpg)
I ran out of ideas what to do the motor so I assebled the whole crap together (except the PCB). It might be that Phil was right: The axel housing might center the motor when motor is bolted on. I was not able to hear any nasty noises when I rotated the steering axel with my hands.
I was thinking of rotating the steering column axel with electric drill (higher speed to hear if the motor would make any noise). Then I would have measured the motor connectors with volt meter. I thought that the motor would work as a generator when rotated so I could get some voltage levels out of the motor. But that plan backfired when I noticed that the steering column axel does not fit into my electric drill. And the threading of the axel seems to be little tighter than in standard bolts so I can't put a nut there and rotate the axel with impact driver...
Im starting to run out of ideas. Luckily it's beer o'clock now...
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You are doing a good job.. Interesting exercise!
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Epcos (TDK) make quality caps, don't expect them to be causing the issue, they are not prone to leak.
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Im starting to run out of ideas. Luckily it's beer o'clock now...
something like 9/10 the reported errors on power steering requiring replacement are reporting an issue with the combined steering angle/torque sensor........
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something like 9/10 the reported errors on power steering requiring replacement are reporting an issue with the combined steering angle/torque sensor........
Based on this info, I tried to check the sensor once more. It must be the practice (and new tools). This time it took about 15min to get the steering column assembly in to this condition.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4783.jpg)
This time I was able to get all the lock washers out and I hammered the sensor axel out of the housing.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4777.jpg)
To my suprise the gearwheel is made out of plastic... The gearwheel seems to be in order. Can't say what it should look when it is brand new, but for me it looked to be in good shape. Still not my favorite material for gearwheel in steering column...
The gearwheel connects to metal threads in the housing. That "screw" is rotated by the electric motor.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4779.jpg)
This next one is the part where the motor axel is connected (spring and center housing missing in the picture).
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4781.jpg)
It looks like there is still a pin holding the axel/sensor right next to the steering angle sensor.
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff56/sundiz85/IMG_4782.jpg)
I tried to hammer it out, but it did not want to move... I was not able to get it out. It's starting to get late and I don't want to upset my neigbours by hammering it anymore today. I even tried to cool the pin down with freeze spray but that did not help at all. Ill have to try it some other day.
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You are doing a very thorough investigation sundiz , well done! If you don't find the fault it won't be for lack of trying!
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We're going to need an autopsy section :lol:
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maybe a old post but I have a Delphi ds150e system, if anybody local im happy to diagnose any i30 free of charge.....also common failure on i30 is the abs sensor on NSF hub which affects the esp, don't know about the eps,
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also common failure on i30 is the abs sensor on NSF
That's a new one to me.
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also common failure on i30 is the abs sensor on NSF
That's a new one to me.
I replaced the right front abs sensor on mine at around 180.000 km....
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Parts were just lying on the floor. The axel of the electric motor started to look like it was little off centered. Fi30cw2009 mentioned that mechanic had said that the motor is broken. Hard to tell that did he get some fault code that indicated that the actual motor is busted or did he ment that the "motor" (the whole assembly) is busted. Well I wasn't going to play with the parts today, but this happened when I pushed the motors axel with my fingers.
:link: Hyundai i30 power steering motor - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBI_m3T0A1k)
Is is supposed to do that? Or did we find the cause for the problem? I guess I'll be opening that motor...
That is interesting - I had trouble with the EPS, eventually (after the problem returned a second time) the 'steering shaft' was replaced under warranty (thank goodness) - the thing was...
- I noticed going over certain bumps in certain orientations - I would hear a clunk from under the dash. For example at the top of a steepish incline/hill is a roundabout, literally you remain unflat until you get onto it, the surfaces are uneven so you do get a slight drop/bump
- Friends, who are a married couple and borrow my car from time to time, drove the car each time it had EPS issues and they said the time right before the replacement it was much harder to steer than previous times (I hadn't noticed - but I am not small)
Not saying it is - but both aspects could be ascribed to what is shown in the video (if it isn't supposed to do that).
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I would consider that behavior perfectly normal. The shaft of the motor is normally kept in the centre position, not touching any magnets but considerably under their magnetic field, by whatever the cover for the motor is. The movement is just the magnets in the motor body attracting the iron core, which is the shaft.
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I would consider that behavior perfectly normal. The shaft of the motor is normally kept in the centre position, not touching any magnets but considerably under their magnetic field, by whatever the cover for the motor is. The movement is just the magnets in the motor body attracting the iron core, which is the shaft.
I do too Phil (I trained in Electrotechnology) - what caught my attention was the fact the video appears to show it only happening in one direction (two if you count the return separately). Of course on reflection that may have just been the way sundiz demonstrated it - rather than the only way it could move like that.
The behavior you describe for certain motors in this situation (cover off allowing shaft movement) is, as you say, normal for them - of course usually the armature/rotor (as it appears in this case) will move in any direction where it is attracted (which is usually more than two positions around the field/stator now days).