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OFF TOPIC => WORLD NEWS => General => Topic started by: FatBoy on April 12, 2015, 00:52:41

Title: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 12, 2015, 00:52:41
The Australian Federal Government has bipartisan support to reduce welfare payments to people that don't vaccinate their children due to "conscientious objection".  People with religious and medical reasons for not vaccinating will be exempt from this requirement.  The Social Services Minister indicated that the number of children that qualify under the religious objection would number about 1000 people.

About time!!!!

:link: Parents who shun vaccinations to lose up to k a year in rebates (http://www.news.com.au/national/parents-who-shun-vaccinations-to-lose-up-to-15k-a-year-in-rebates/story-e6frfkp9-1227299962186)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: beerman on April 12, 2015, 05:51:20
About time,

What really annoyed me was when they had a 'bonus' payment for kids that received their needles, and it was paid to 'objectors'.

Seriously, here was a payment to encourage child vaccination, and it was still paid to those who didn't....Seriously, if your that outraged by the concept, prove it by not taking the money...... 
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 12, 2015, 06:34:33
Personally I think parents who don't vaccinate their children should be charged for child neglect, heck we vaccinate our pets so they should at lest show the same concern for children.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Doggie 1 on April 12, 2015, 11:05:55
No argument from me.
Good to see bi-partisan support too.   :goodjob2:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: AlanHo on April 12, 2015, 13:17:00
I wish the UK would do that. Why should the population be exposed to people walking in their midst who could be susceptible to a dangerous disease.

The only issue I have with the idea is that people can be exempted on religious grounds. I can understand the medical exemption in rare cases, but religion is a card played all too often for people to avoid communal responsibility.

Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Wingerdave on April 12, 2015, 18:25:09
I'm an advocate of compulsory euthenasia  :whistler:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: AlanHo on April 12, 2015, 19:18:29
I'm an advocate of compulsory euthenasia  :whistler:

THat's a religion that is new to me - Is that a branch of the Ex-Brummigem Galvanised Methodists?.......... :Dunno:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Wingerdave on April 12, 2015, 23:25:06
No, just common (brummigem) sense. The problem is immediatly solved  :whistler:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 19, 2015, 12:43:25
Even better news.  The Australian Government has now stated that the only exemption from vaccinations will be on medical grounds.  No exemptions for religious reasons!! 

Hooray!!  Common sense prevails!!
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 19, 2015, 12:47:34
Still going to be gaps in the system as they are only targeting welfare payments. Those that can afford it will simply do without and those not on welfare will of course be unaffected. To get full compliance they should 2x the medicare levy or similar.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Surferdude on April 19, 2015, 13:00:22
Still going to be gaps in the system as they are only targeting welfare payments. Those that can afford it will simply do without and those not on welfare will of course be unaffected. To get full compliance they should 2x the medicare levy or similar.
I don't know about other areas but around here the biggest gap is up in the hinterland (Maleny etc) with it's large population of alternative lifestylers. They'll be getting some form of government assistance.
I doubt they'll fall into line but at least we won't be funding their lifestyle.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: PiL on April 21, 2015, 13:58:54
i guarantee you that when little johnnie gets the measels, the first place the parents will take him to is the doctors.

do they not see the utter hypocrisy in that?   :head_butt:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: rustynutz on April 21, 2015, 14:13:35
The Australian Federal Government has bipartisan support to reduce welfare payments to people that don't vaccinate their children due to "conscientious objection".  People with religious and medical reasons for not vaccinating will be exempt from this requirement.  The Social Services Minister indicated that the number of children that qualify under the religious objection would number about 1000 people.

About time!!!!

:link: Parents who shun vaccinations to lose up to k a year in rebates (http://www.news.com.au/national/parents-who-shun-vaccinations-to-lose-up-to-15k-a-year-in-rebates/story-e6frfkp9-1227299962186)

Nothing like a bit of blackmail to get your way.... just sayin'... :whistler:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 21, 2015, 14:16:39
The Australian Federal Government has bipartisan support to reduce welfare payments to people that don't vaccinate their children due to "conscientious objection".  People with religious and medical reasons for not vaccinating will be exempt from this requirement.  The Social Services Minister indicated that the number of children that qualify under the religious objection would number about 1000 people.

About time!!!!

:link: Parents who shun vaccinations to lose up to k a year in rebates (http://www.news.com.au/national/parents-who-shun-vaccinations-to-lose-up-to-15k-a-year-in-rebates/story-e6frfkp9-1227299962186)

Nothing like a bit of blackmail to get your way.... just sayin'... :whistler:

Not blackmail, Rusty.  If people are willing to stand by their convictions, then that is fine.  But don't expect the Government to support that.  Bipartisan support, that means the loony left support it as well as the fascist right.

It is still my shout for coffee!!  I might even buy cake too!!
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: rustynutz on April 21, 2015, 14:19:59
Oh, that's right, it's not blackmail when it's the Government doing it....  :lol:

Hanging out for that coffee, Jamie....it's been too long!
Keep your cake, unless it's a snot block or something like that...  :P
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 21, 2015, 14:26:03
Oh, that's right, it's not blackmail when it's the Government doing it....  :lol:

Hanging out for that coffee, Jamie....it's been too long!
Keep your cake, unless it's a snot block or something like that...  :P

Mate, you are on!!  I love a snot block!!  My favourite type of treat.

So if a child gets sick because they aren't vaccinated, should the rest of society and the child pay for the parents' choice?

Just saying....  Doctors and scientists in peer reviewed papers state that vaccination works more effectively if the people that can be vaccinated are.  Herd vaccination (not herd mentality) works.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: rustynutz on April 21, 2015, 15:30:57
Hey mate, I actually agree with vaccinations...  :goodjob:

And yes, I know there are many arguments for and against.

Still reckon it's blackmail with what they are doing though...  :whistler:

My dictionary says:
Quote
Blackmail: Exert pressure on someone through threats

 the exertion of pressure or threats, esp unfairly, in an attempt to influence someone's actions
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 21, 2015, 15:41:09
If it takes blackmail for these idiots to finally immunise their children then so be it, personally I think they should be charged for child neglect.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 21, 2015, 15:55:21
Hey mate, I actually agree with vaccinations...  :goodjob:

And yes, I know there are many arguments for and against.

Still reckon it's blackmail with what they are doing though...  :whistler:

My dictionary says:
Quote
Blackmail: Exert pressure on someone through threats

 the exertion of pressure or threats, esp unfairly, in an attempt to influence someone's actions

So what are the arguments against vaccination?

They aren't threats, they are are actions.  If you don't vaccinate, you will not receive some Government assistance.  Not unfair and totally reasonable.

I do like Jimmy Kimmel's statement about the anti-vaxxers.  They say that want the other side of the argument publicised.  He said that the other side of the argument was like saying "Eating pancakes makes you gay."  THERE IS NO OTHER SIDE!!

Remember when you got Polio?  No you don't, because you're parents got you vaccinated.

Remembers Small Pox?  Nobody does!!  It was eradicated because of vaccination!!

My uncles had mumps when they were younger.  Neither had children.  Mumps is almost unheard of today, because of vaccination!!

If the Government's action to reduce welfare payments to people that don't vaccinate, causes a family to get their kids vaccinated so they receive the payment, it helps everybody.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: rustynutz on April 21, 2015, 16:13:10
So what are the arguments against vaccination?

:link: There's A Downside To Vaccinations - Personal Liberty (http://personalliberty.com/theres-a-downside-to-vaccinations/)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: rustynutz on April 21, 2015, 16:15:38
My uncles had mumps when they were younger.  Neither had children.  Mumps is almost unheard of today, because of vaccination!!

I had mumps twice as a kid... :Pout:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 21, 2015, 16:19:30
Any peer reviewed papers in the arguments against vaccinations?

If you don't want to get your kids vaccinated, don't expect society to pay for that decision.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 21, 2015, 16:21:43

My uncles had mumps when they were younger.  Neither had children.  Mumps is almost unheard of today, because of vaccination!!

I had mumps twice as a kid... :Pout:
Were you vaccinated against mumps? If you were then the vaccination worked as you have kids. My uncles weren't vaccinated against mumps and therefore suffered the inability to father children.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 21, 2015, 21:59:34
I do like Jimmy Kimmel's statement about the anti-vaxxers.  They say that want the other side of the argument publicised.  He said that the other side of the argument was like saying "Eating pancakes makes you gay."  THERE IS NO OTHER SIDE!!

Wrong, ask these parents !

http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/May-2011/In-Memoriam--Infant-Deaths---Vaccination.aspx (http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/May-2011/In-Memoriam--Infant-Deaths---Vaccination.aspx)

BTW, I'm pro vaccination, but I think the govt's method is wrong.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 21, 2015, 23:14:17
Gee, I'm really surprised that an anti-vaccine website says that there is another side. FFS!!
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 21, 2015, 23:48:21
The point is there ARE 2 sides. I don't want to even imagine living without any of my "children" as I'm sure you wouldn't, especially over the cause, death by vaccination reaction, yet it does happen.

Like I said, I'm pro vaccination, too. I had mumps as a child, too. What a rip off, started 1st week of summer school holidays, I was 10 yo spent all 6 weeks in bed in a quite, darkened bedroom. Daily visits by the quack, as I developed complications and nearly ended up in hospital. It's the sickest I have ever felt, still remember it well.

My childern avoided all that, with a simple needle.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 00:12:50
I never said that there are no possible side effects from vaccinations.  However, it is a simple case of risk vs reward.  If there is a small risk of complications due to vaccination (including death), but the risks due to not vaccinating are much worse (whooping cough, measles, polio); then I would never even consider not vaccinating.

I have had an adverse reaction to vaccination.  It was my second vaccination to anthrax in 2002.  It knocked me on my backside for two days, I could not move.  Others had similar reactions to either the first or second round (we didn't end up getting the third round, we were back home).  One of the members of the ship's company has a father who is a Paediatric Gastroenterologist (sp?).  He explained to her that an adverse reaction can indicate that the vaccination is working.  It is forcing the body's immune system to react to the introduced vaccine, which then builds up the immunity to the disease in future.  BTW, we did have a choice whether we wanted to get the vaccination or not; however, if we decided not to get the vaccination, then we were sent home.  At that stage we believed that the threat of chemical weapons, including anthrax, was very real.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: rustynutz on April 22, 2015, 02:00:48

My uncles had mumps when they were younger.  Neither had children.  Mumps is almost unheard of today, because of vaccination!!

I had mumps twice as a kid... :Pout:
Were you vaccinated against mumps? If you were then the vaccination worked as you have kids. My uncles weren't vaccinated against mumps and therefore suffered the inability to father children.

I had the mumps during the 60's, well before any vaccination was introduced in Victoria so that would be a no, me thinks....  :undecided:

The fact that I had them twice and still went on to father children would suggest that you don't necessarily lose the ability....unless of course I've been kidding myself all these years and it WAS the milkman that fathered my daughter...  :p  :lol:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 02:07:42
I will add that my uncles both got the mumps in their late teens. That may be one of the reasons that they weren't able to father kids.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Doggie 1 on April 22, 2015, 03:18:49
I ad mumps and measles at the same time as a toddler and was very ill.
But I'm still (was?  :undecided:) a fertile bugger.   :D
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Dazzler on April 22, 2015, 05:47:15
I had hepatitis when I was 12 and also had 6 weeks in bed (and lost about 10 kg) and 2 weeks of school holidays  :fum: then about 12 months later got mumps ( but they didn't spread downstairs thankfully)  :sweating: I am pro-vaccination  :goodjob:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Surferdude on April 22, 2015, 07:57:01
The antivaccers annoy me. These days if you go to a markets almost anywhere, you'll find a booth carrying signs advocating anti vaccination views and displaying banners advising how the Gubmint and doctors are lying to us all. Most of the time I manage to walk past and ignore them.

But there are two or three of my facebook friends who are passionately anti vaccination. One, who I like immensely, I have blocked - which isn't unfriending so she doesn't know I don't see her posts anymore.
One of the others is a surfer whose whole family has all sorts of medical conditions including autism spectrum and ADD issues, all of which he blames on vaccinations. He may or may not be correct in his family's case. As others have said here, no one denies there is a risk of an adverse reaction from vaccinations. This guy has taken his family off the grid in an old council bus - home schooling and all. Travelling around Australia as and when he feels like it.

Anyway, a week or so ago I finally reacted to the posts from antivaccers offering "proof" the doctors are all part of a scam etc etc and wrote a piece on my fb page. To make a point I found an opposing view to this latest thing doing the rounds and added both the for and against arguments at the end. You only need to read as much or as little as you want but I reproduce the post here in full for your info.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 22, 2015, 08:49:19
I've never had the mumps, I've had chicken pox when I was 13 and German measles ( Rubella ) as a child and nothing ever again " touch wood " :)

The worst part of chicken pox was the Doctor gave me Valium, very bad move :eek: it sent me crackers and I destroyed the house internally and tried to kill my mother  :crazy2:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Surferdude on April 22, 2015, 09:00:17
I had Measles. Then Mumps on the day we were due to go to the Ekka.
Only got Chicken Pox in my final year of high school, about 2 months before the Leaving Certificate.
Fortunately it wasn't a serious bout and the doc signed me off to go back to school after 1 week instead of the required 3.
Never had German Measles.

Always loved Agatha Christie's, "The Mirror Cracked" - German Measles connection.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Dazzler on April 22, 2015, 09:23:01
@ Trevor .. post 32 =  :Agoodpost:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 09:45:37
Great post, Trev.

I did like this line of yours,

"My argument is that the risks associated with doing nothing are greater AND have much wider implications and risks for the whole community."

As to the comments that vaccinations cause autism.  This has been disproven, the article that proposed it withdrawn by the publication, and the author struck from the medical register. 

:link: Link between vaccine, autism debunked again ? News in Science (ABC Science) (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2015/04/22/4221393.htm)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Surferdude on April 22, 2015, 10:06:10
^^^^
The trouble is of course, the anti mob just claim the medical profession closed ranks and paid off the researchers.

God I hate conspiracy theorists.  :disapp:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Surferdude on April 22, 2015, 10:10:50
I see we rated a mention in the linked report here............

:link: Journal retracts paper linking MMR, autism ? News in Science (ABC Science) (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2010/02/03/2808812.htm)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 10:12:01
From my understanding of the research, it was only a sample size of twelve boys.  Hardly a large group. 

Did you know that 99% of heroin addicts drank milk as babies?  Therefore, by the anti-vaxxer logic, drinking milk causes heroin addiction.

Allah be praised, I hate conspiracy theorists as well!!
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 22, 2015, 10:15:04
God I hate conspiracy theorists.  :disapp:
Me too :goodjob2: and tree huggin hippies :D
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 10:18:41
God I hate conspiracy theorists.  :disapp:
Me too :goodjob2: and tree huggin hippies :D

As well as the Judean Peoples Front.  Splitters!!
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 22, 2015, 10:24:14
I loved Life of Brian :rofl:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 10:30:01
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 22, 2015, 10:52:14
What have the Romans ever done for us?

Taxes, I believe.  :'(
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 10:53:16
What have the Romans ever done for us?

Taxes, I believe.  :'(

And the aqueducts.

BTW, I don't mind paying taxes.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Wingerdave on April 22, 2015, 10:59:40


What have the Romans ever done for us?

Taxes, I believe.  :'(

And the aqueducts.

BTW, I don't mind paying taxes.

Concrete, but then everybody forgot about it for a few hundred years coz building with wood was easier
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 22, 2015, 11:36:01
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Military tactics/weapons/Battlefield Surgery, codes/signalling, roads and surveying, The Twelve Tables and the Corpus Juris Civilis ( the basis for our legal systems today ), The Julian Calendar which evolved into the Gregorian calendar, Bound Books, newspapers, welfare.
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 12:03:01
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Military tactics/weapons/Battlefield Surgery, codes/signalling, roads and surveying, The Twelve Tables and the Corpus Juris Civilis ( the basis for our legal systems today ), The Julian Calendar which evolved into the Gregorian calendar, Bound Books, newspapers, welfare.

But apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 22, 2015, 12:24:17
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Military tactics/weapons/Battlefield Surgery, codes/signalling, roads and surveying, The Twelve Tables and the Corpus Juris Civilis ( the basis for our legal systems today ), The Julian Calendar which evolved into the Gregorian calendar, Bound Books, newspapers, welfare.

But apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us?
They invented bacon ( petaso )
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: FatBoy on April 22, 2015, 12:25:20
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Military tactics/weapons/Battlefield Surgery, codes/signalling, roads and surveying, The Twelve Tables and the Corpus Juris Civilis ( the basis for our legal systems today ), The Julian Calendar which evolved into the Gregorian calendar, Bound Books, newspapers, welfare.

But apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us?
They invented bacon ( petaso )

Did I ever tell you I love the Romans?
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Phil №❶ on April 22, 2015, 12:25:56
Now you're talking his language.  :lol:
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: CraigB on April 22, 2015, 12:32:22
I knew that would change his mind :D
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Doggie 1 on April 22, 2015, 12:38:59
From my understanding of the research, it was only a sample size of twelve boys.  Hardly a large group. 

They could have been large FatBoys.   :)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: Surferdude on April 23, 2015, 09:47:15
The antivaccers have outdone themselves this time.

https://www.facebook.com/topic/Australian-Vaccination-Skeptics-Network/106390602725768?source=whfrt&position=3&trqid=6140849484650739471 (https://www.facebook.com/topic/Australian-Vaccination-Skeptics-Network/106390602725768?source=whfrt&position=3&trqid=6140849484650739471)

Or, if you don't have facebook access, try this link.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/australian-vaccination-skeptics-network-compares-vaccines-to-rape-in-facebook-post/story-fni0xqrb-1227315985884?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HaraldSun&utm_medium=Facebook (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/australian-vaccination-skeptics-network-compares-vaccines-to-rape-in-facebook-post/story-fni0xqrb-1227315985884?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=HaraldSun&utm_medium=Facebook)
Title: Re: Reduction in welfare payments if kids aren't vaccinated
Post by: beerman on April 23, 2015, 12:07:45
I heard a good comment on the radio the other day. Old mate said the second generation have never had to experience the sadness of a large number of children dying, they are now mistakenly believing the stupidity of the anti vaccination brigade.

They are also surfing on the pain my kids endured to continue the immunity of the herd......
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