The Original i30 Owners Club
GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => GENERAL => Topic started by: pcmc on February 06, 2017, 14:45:06
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Hello everyone,
I have my i30 Comfort petrol since it was new in 2009.
Hardly any trouble until recently.
The car wont start, just cranks.
In the dashboard, the icon of a car with a key comes on solid, and disappears after a minute.
Took the car to the Hyundai dealer in Oxford three times, but problem keeps reoccurring.
Initially, the car just occasionally would not start.
Booked the car in, but they could not find any fault.
The 2nd time they found the exhaust flexi pipe cracked and thought the poor start was due to excessive oxygen flow. They replaced the exhaust flexi pipe for the cost of £320. Drove back home, but the fault re-occurs in the following morning.
They sent some mechanics around, reprogrammed the immobliser with the spare key.
It works for a couple of days, while I booked the car in again to reprogramme the regular key.
This time in the service log, they say:
Carried out investigation into vehicle not starting. Confirmed fault.
Carried out DTC check, no fault found.
Upon further diag, found immobiliser faulting. carried out hard wire of Smartra antenn
to vehicle, re-tested. all ok with both keys.
Customer to monitor. if fault, vehicle must return.
But they also indicate, if they fault reoccurs, they shall need to open up the front of the
car. That will be 3 hours of labour to open up and a further 3 hours to put them back.
Drove the car home, drove to work in the morning, and it wont start again in the evening.
Same symptoms, the car just cranks, wont start.
At the dashboard the icon of a car with a key stays solid on when I switch on the electric with both the usual and spare keys, and the icon disappears after a minute.
It does look like the immobliser acknowledges the validity of the key, cancel the car icon, but not able to unlock the car.
I start wonder would it be a big and expensive job to replace the immobiliser?
Can the immobiliser be disabled at all?
Any advice would be much appreciated.
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:welcum: Peter,
Sorry to hear of your troubles. Not nice to spend all that money and be no closer to a solution. We have three Australian members categorized as technical advisors who may have some ideas when they see this in the morning. I will alert them to your plight.
@cruiserfied @ngenigma @tw2005
We have other mechanically savvy members who may chip in as well..
Good luck!
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take notice when this happens.
is the rev counter showing anything or the needle seats on 0.
if the ESP off light is on.
if so, could be the crank shaft sensor.
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Thanks for your speedy response.
The speedometer stays at 0, or hardly any movement.
The ESP Off light is off.
(Meant to send a photo on the dashboard, but the zipped file is 371K over the 200K limit.)
In the photo, the following lights are on (solid):
EPS, seat belt, battery, Brake, oil and engine.
Many thanks again.
Peter
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Welcome Peter :welcome:
You can use Imgur :link: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (https://imgur.com/) to upload your photos then copy paste the forum code produced in your next post.
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Thanks for your speedy response.
The speedometer stays at 0, or hardly any movement.
The ESP Off light is off.
(Meant to send a photo on the dashboard, but the zipped file is 371K over the 200K limit.)
In the photo, the following lights are on (solid):
EPS, seat belt, battery, Brake, oil and engine.
Many thanks again.
Peter
yodm said rev counter aka Tachometer (engine speed)
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Hey.
If the immobiliser light stays ON while cranking tthe key has not been validated. If it turns OFF while cranking it is valid and immobiliser is disarmed.
The key reader, ring around ignition barrel, is often found to be the concern with immobiliser. It will cause the same conditions you have but nearly always logs DTC's. It sounds like your dealer has thought the same if they hardwired the antenna coil.
Also, as yodm said, definately check your tacho is coming off 0rpm.
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Gidday Peter,
These intermittent faults are the worst to deal with. Often it comes down to trial and error servicing, unlike mechanical devices, electronic components may not be measurably at fault.
It does sound like you have a fault involving the immobiliser . As Tim says, the antenna is a common fault.
However you say "It does look like the immobliser acknowledges the validity of the key, cancel the car icon, but not able to unlock the car."
I assume 'not able to unlock the car' means the engine will not start ??? Or has the remote on the key stopped opening doors? If so, this is a separate issue and not related to engine failure.
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Thanks, again for your responses.
Here is the photo on the dashboard I meant to send.
:link: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://imgur.com/qnkyV5W)
(http://i.imgur.com/qnkyV5W.jpg)
I have also taken a video clip to show the dashboard when I start the car,
but unfortunately the mp4 video is too big (234M) for imgur....
Peter
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You can upload the video to youtube, or send it to me using https://wetransfer.com/ (https://wetransfer.com/) and I'll get it hosted for you.
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Just put the video clip into youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4861turA_B4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4861turA_B4)
Peter
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Thanks for the video Peter. Now I am less certain that it is the immobiliser . Your video shows the key code being read, the immobiliser is turned off while you crank the motor.
As you crank the Tacho remains on zero then gives a slight kick at which time the engine is again immobilised.
Tim, aka @cruiserfied has vastly more experience here, so I await the great ones arrival. :phone1: :)
However, I am thinking that some electronic component, possibly the crank shaft sensor, is intermittent. In your video there was a short spike then the system returns to pre-start condition which as usual requires the immobiliser to be unlocked. :question:
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I would have expected the tacho to rise to around 200rpm while cranking but im still not 100% dismissing immobilizer.
I'd like to know/see what happens when you crank the engine straight away. NOT wait until the immobilizer light turns off.
Could someone with an FD confirm the tacho reads something/anything while cranking. If i get my hands on one tomorrow i will check it.
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Thanks, to nzenigma and cruiserfied, for their responses.
Having tried quite a few times, the car battery is now running low.
My recollection is that when I crank the engine right away, there is no movement on the tacho.
A perhaps naive question, given the number of failures, is it possible to get rid of the immobiliser, or disable it?
The dealer mechanics have already looked into this 3 times. I am concerned that if they should spend further 3 hours to open up the "front" and a further 3 hours to restore it may lead us anywhere...
Regards,
Peter
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The immobilizer is not something that can just be removed anymore. Years ago systems were add-ons but now the ECU is involved.
Its something i have always been curious about, whether you can permanently disable it somehow. But have not spent any time investigating it.
Does the immobilizer light stay on or go out when you crank it straight away?
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The immobiliser stays on when I crank the engine.
Does that mean anything?
The dealer mechanic did reprogram it with the spare key, and it worked for a couple of days,
then fails again...
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When the light stays on when cranking the immobilizer is not disarming.
Why its not disarming i cant say.
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Would it be a big job to replace the immobiliser?
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also notice the ESP off light comes on. this happens when the crank shaft sensor is bad.
I will check tomorrow what happens when I start the car.
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I would have expected the tacho to rise to around 200rpm while cranking but im still not 100% dismissing immobilizer.
I'd like to know/see what happens when you crank the engine straight away. NOT wait until the immobilizer light turns off.
Could someone with an FD confirm the tacho reads something/anything while cranking. If i get my hands on one tomorrow i will check it.
@cruiserfied
Hi mate, The tacho sits on 0 while cranking then flicks up to 100 -200 rpm before firing. About same movement as Peter's video shows.
Have the 'advantage' of a dodgy EVAP valve on this one so could also get a long crank period before she fired. Tacho on 0 rpm until then.
Cheers G
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I would have expected the tacho to rise to around 200rpm while cranking but im still not 100% dismissing immobilizer.
I'd like to know/see what happens when you crank the engine straight away. NOT wait until the immobilizer light turns off.
Could someone with an FD confirm the tacho reads something/anything while cranking. If i get my hands on one tomorrow i will check it.
@cruiserfied
Hi mate, The tacho sits on 0 while cranking then flicks up to 100 -200 rpm before firing. About same movement as Peter's video shows.
Have the 'advantage' of a dodgy EVAP valve on this one so could also get a long crank period before she fired. Tacho on 0 rpm until then.
Cheers G
Excellent. Thanks for that, what's your thoughts?
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My thoughts are, it would be great if we had some DTCs.
After watching the video again I now see that the immobiliser light had come on again before that short flicker of the tacho.
As much as we want to ignore it, the light is telling us the engine IS immobilised.
The dealer's techs have apparently made the same assumption, worked on the key reader etc and had the car running for a day or so.
That has the hall-marks of an intermittent electronic component /'chip', in the region that they are working; in this case the immobiliser.
As you say the antenna coil is a common culprit. I wonder if they replaced it or just hardwired it. It is possible that a coil will have shorted turns or intermittent internal break.
Back to you squire :)
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My thoughts are, it would be great if we had some DTCs.
After watching the video again I now see that the immobiliser light had come on again before that short flicker of the tacho.
As much as we want to ignore it, the light is telling us the engine IS immobilised.
The dealer's techs have apparently made the same assumption, worked on the key reader etc and had the car running for a day or so.
That has the hall-marks of an intermittent electronic component /'chip', in the region that they are working; in this case the immobiliser.
As you say the antenna coil is a common culprit. I wonder if they replaced it or just hardwired it. It is possible that a coil will have shorted turns or intermittent internal break.
Back to you squire :)
I'm on the same page as you.
Op did say they checked and found no DTC's. Antenna coil throws 2 codes smartra error and eeprom error.
Not a lot more to be done from a keyboard unfortunately.
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Thanks gentlemen for all your help here. :)
It looks like the immobiliser is faulty.
Just wonder how big a job it is to replace the immobiliser, or permanently disarming it, assuming it is legal to do so. :sweating:
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here is a video of a "good" start
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEGq_4c8s5k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEGq_4c8s5k)
and a video of what I come to believe is an intermittent crank shaft sensor
you can see that the immobilizer light stay on and no rev counter on startup and after the engine finely starts.
shutting off and then engine start up just fine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7M4xSlb4g0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7M4xSlb4g0)
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you can see that in normal starting, the rev counter will move a bit
and in a faulty starting, the immobilizer symbol stay on until the engine finely starts.
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Thanks for going to all that trouble yodm :hatoff:
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Thanks gentlemen for all your help here. :)
It looks like the immobiliser is faulty.
Just wonder how big a job it is to replace the immobiliser, or permanently disarming it, assuming it is legal to do so. :sweating:
Mate, its frustrating when you can only 'talk' and not do.
It often happens to us, but quite often we can steer owners away from huge costs due to apparently incompetent mechanics or some erroneous theory.
In this case your mechanics seem to be on the ball. Sorry.
The immobiliser is not easy to get at for a very good reason. Car thieves are clever.
There is a chance that your mechanics quickly find something simple such as a poor connector, but they need to get behind the dash to do it.
Feel free to hit us again with the problem if something develops. :)
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you can see that in normal starting, the rev counter will move a bit
and in a faulty starting, the immobilizer symbol stay on until the engine finely starts.
I did expect to see a small rpm when cranking, and didn't completely dismiss crank sensor. The strange bit is that you do see the tach move.
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Thanks again gentlemen.
It may open up a few more questions for me.
What does the crank shaft sensor do?
If it fails (in sensing the crank shaft motion), will still prevent the engine from starting?
Will "DTC" report its failure?
Where is the crank shaft sensor, under the bonnet?
Is it equally awkward to get to, check and replace compare with the immobiliser?
Sorry for so many questions.
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any possibility there's poorly contacting fuses or relays in the main engine bay fuse box?
keep that battery charged up, I suspect if the volts get to about 10-11V the ECU won't like it, especially whilst cranking.
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Thanks again gentlemen.
It may open up a few more questions for me.
What does the crank shaft sensor do?
If it fails (in sensing the crank shaft motion), will still prevent the engine from starting?
Will "DTC" report its failure?
Where is the crank shaft sensor, under the bonnet?
Is it equally awkward to get to, check and replace compare with the immobiliser?
Sorry for so many questions.
Crank sensor basic explanation is that it tells the computer the position of the piston so it can inject fuel at the right time. It also measures engine speed which shows on tacho.
A crank sensor SHOULD log a DTC but ive been caught before.
Location is on the side of the engine block. Not super easy to get to.
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Thanks again, cruiserfied,
What does DTC stand for by the way?
I recall when the car was returned to me by the dealer the last time,
I drove home that night and then drove to work on the next morning.
I dont recall getting any symptom of miss firing of the piston over that 22 miles journey.
Then on the evening, the car could not start right away.
If the crank shaft sensor is controlling the piston firing, then it seems to function okay.
Maybe my naive assumption.
I suppose ideally is to disarm the immobiliser altogether,
it can then verify if the crank shaft sensor still operates okay....
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you can see that in normal starting, the rev counter will move a bit
and in a faulty starting, the immobilizer symbol stay on until the engine finely starts.
Thanks yodm, your clip shows the small rev blip before start up that I have also described earlier to cruiserfied.
Peter's, video also shows this rev blip, but in his case the immobiliser symbol remains illuminated, unlike yours ( and mine). We must assume it is locked...until we are (hopefully) proven wrong.
Why we still get that initial signal from the crank, I cannot explain at this stage.
A few months ago, I had the same situation/evidence on a new Ford Ranger. Two mechanics had given it up as immobiliser locked.
By chance , I found that moving the key sideways in the ignition before turning the key to start, got a result; engine started and ran perfectly. I was out in the bush so just I squirted some WD40 down the keylock barrel and it never failed from thereon. Over the next few weeks, I could not find out what the original problem had been. I assume the antennae coil was the culprit.....BUT :head_knock:
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Thanks again, cruiserfied,
What does DTC stand for by the way?
I recall when the car was returned to me by the dealer the last time,
I drove home that night and then drove to work on the next morning.
I dont recall getting any symptom of miss firing of the piston over that 22 miles journey.
Then on the evening, the car could not start right away.
If the crank shaft sensor is controlling the piston firing, then it seems to function okay.
Maybe my naive assumption.
I suppose ideally is to disarm the immobiliser altogether,
it can then verify if the crank shaft sensor still operates okay....
The DTC= Diagnostic Trouble Code ; a scan tool reads the codes to reveal the engine faults.
:link: Car Terminology: Discussing DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code) and DTC Readers | Auto Mechanic | Auto Mechanic Repair and Maintenance Tips (https://automechanics.wordpress.com/2008/08/22/car-terminology-discussing-dtc-diagnostic-trouble-code-and-dtc-readers/)
It would be far simpler to change the crank sensor.
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Thanks for the tip, nzenigma,
Last night, I have called up the recovery service to take the car back from the company car park to the Hyundai dealer in Oxford.
To be honest, I am not sure how much luck would I get from them this time,
given they have already tried 3 times.
I did request them to rectify the fault fully, on the understanding that a 6 hours labour bill (with parts on top) is on the way...
The car is dead basically with the immobilier in dead lock... :'( :(
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If they know what they are doing they can deactivate the immobiliser with the scan tool and attempt to start. This will instantly prove immobiliser if it starts or other if not.
Don't get too excited though, it only allows 2 starts and you need to know the security PIN and scan tool to do it.
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Thanks for this superb info, cruiserfied,
Are you also implying that not all Hyundai dealer techs have this scan tool and the security pin to deactivate the immobiliser on a Hyundai?
I wonder what is holding them up to do this scan, as oppose to warning me of spending 3 hours of labour to open up the "front" to investigate? :confused:
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Dealer will have the scantool and should know how to deactivate. They wouldn't have done it before because it only applies under a no start situation and yours was starting when they looked at it.
Give them a bit of time and trust.
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After 3 unsuccessful attempts and the cost of £320,
I would not like to see more :disapp:.
May I ask how much time this scan tool would generally take to set up and deactivate the immobiliser?
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Thsts fair enough and im not made of money either.
If i read correctly.
First and second visit the fault didn't occur. Very hard to chase a concern that isn't presenting itself.
They replaced the exhaust piece and it didn't fix the start issue but it definately would have caused grief to the engine if left as it was.
Third time they carried out a repair and as far as they knew it had fixed it. No need to look further and take more of your money for pointless labour time.
Pain in the arse and expensive, but at least it aint a VW 😆
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Probably no need to go back to what have or have done.
I just wish not to be disappointed again.
Can I ask again how much time this scan tool would generally take to set up and deactivate the immobiliser?
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Friday night! Tim's probably having a few well earned North Queensland beers.
Scan tool is a simple plug in procedure. With the PIN, 5 minutes.
What it reveals.....???? minutes/hours/weeks :blubber:
Good Luck
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what is the difference between the port in the cabin and the diagnostic port in the engine bay?
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Old sonata crank sensor fault I found interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZxGE77lpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZxGE77lpU)
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After 3 unsuccessful attempts and the cost of £320,
I would not like to see more :disapp:.
May I ask how much time this scan tool would generally take to set up and deactivate the immobiliser?
Hi, pcmc,
Another member has had a similar problem with his immobiliser. It may be worth investigating your own vehicle given that you are both in the grips of winter.
In short, corrosion was probably on a door-open switch circuit . It had too much resistance to operate the ceiling light, but enough conductivity to wrongly indicate that a door was open.
:link: Starting problems - Immobiliser stifles engine start-up (https://i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php?topic=43238.msg420200#msg420200)
@cruiserfied @pcmc
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Hello all,
It has been a good three weeks since my i30 been towed to the local Hyundai dealer for repair on the car start problem.
Yesterday, I received a call from them that they have now found the fault, for that they have replaced the crank shaft position sensor to rectify the fault.
I have tried the car last night, and again this morning.
The car does start, but I have feeling that it starts after hearing a few (3?) cranks on the ignition.
If I then turn off the engine, leave the key in, start again, then it starts much quicker, almost instantly.
I then take the key out, start the car, it does start after hearing 3 cranks again.
Being tainted by a non-starting car, I am not sure if the car is fully repaired.
Can any expert kindly comment on this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDdCKBJD6cw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDdCKBJD6cw)
The car starts about 25th second.
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Looks and sounds pretty decent to me.
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Ok, thanks very much Shambles for your comment.
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Looks and sounds pretty decent to me.
Me too. Good Luck :)
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Okay, thanks too to nzenigma.
It is quite comforting to hear these positive comments.
Peter