Post by: EymaTeapot on July 08, 2008, 09:17:01
I was just playing around on the net ealier and found a Sydney based Forum dedicated to boideisel uses. It included information on how to make it. It also made reference to a Service station in Sydney that now sells a mixed biodeisel/petrodeisel.
The site indicated that any Deisel vehcile can run on biodeisel.
I am not what Hyundai's stance is on biodeisel.
What do our more techno members think? Is it advisable to run the car on bio? Is likely to do any harm to the engine or effect the warranty?
My feeling is that I wouldnt run a sophisticated CRDi engine on pure Biodeisel, but would consider a mix if it was cheaper, similar to the ethonol E10 some oil companys offer.
Post by: Dazzler on July 08, 2008, 09:24:11
Gee I've done 900 posts.... 1000 will be an interesting milestone (Think i'll call myself a veteran then
)
Post by: CRM114 on July 08, 2008, 12:18:05
in South Australia you can buy biodeisel at the bowser at several (many would be an ovestatement, but it's more than a few ;)
Just re-reading my post so far, I'd like to add that I don't work for SAFF, it's just its the only example in SA for commercially available bio.
the sophisticated CRDi engine you refer to is designed for low sulfur diesel. Apparently adding bio (even as little as 2%) improves lubricity, something the sulfur used to do
Post by: Dazzler on July 08, 2008, 12:32:57
How much would that "someone" who uses 100% bio be saving per litre over standard diesel....
Post by: CRM114 on July 08, 2008, 12:52:33
not much at all, the bowser price is around $1.82 as opposed to $1.85 or sixish for dino diesel.
The real advantage 'someone' may have is that the source is renewable and the emissions slightly less toxic (ther's no 'angel' emoticon :D
Post by: Dazzler on July 08, 2008, 13:50:07
Post by: echocae on July 08, 2008, 14:32:22
-----------
To whom it may concern
i just wondering will the hyundai i30 CRDi (turbo
diesel) will work with a Bio-Diesel? or it have to be only Normal Diesel?
thank you
Brian
-----------
Hyundai Customer Service Response Reference # G215609
Dear Brian,
Thank you for your email.
Bio diesel fuel is not recommended in the i30. Use of this fuel may effect
your new car warranty.
Kind Regards
Nick Christopoulos
Customer Service Consultant
Hyundai Motor Company Australia
Post by: eye30 on July 08, 2008, 17:14:26
In UK some petrol stations advertise both fuel with and without Bio.
I know of 1 supermarket petrol retailer who is actively adding bio to the fuel and all their fuel included a small %. I think 5%.
I wouldn't be surprised if this % increases as fuel price increase.
Just another way to fleece the motorist!!!!
At this rate I'll be able to cook the tea on the way home from work.
Post by: Lakes on July 08, 2008, 21:12:20
Quote from: "CRM114"
Hi Eyma,
in South Australia you can buy biodeisel at the bowser at several (many would be an ovestatement, but it's more than a few ;)
Just re-reading my post so far, I'd like to add that I don't work for SAFF, it's just its the only example in SA for commercially available bio.
the sophisticated CRDi engine you refer to is designed for low sulfur diesel. Apparently adding bio (even as little as 2%) improves lubricity, something the sulfur used to do
Can you tell us what part of the motor the sulfur used to lubricate?
also i was thinking it might be the injectors they are worried about when you use Bio, or effect at different temps, as normal diesel fuel they change it summer to winter so it is always easy to start.
i'm thinking they might add something like BP do with there unlead 98 to keep the injectors clean, and maybe with bio this does not happen, and after a time the injectors get clogged up. or might be the burnt gas's. i'm just guessing here, there always has to be a reason.
John
Post by: Lakes on July 08, 2008, 21:15:16
Post by: bikejockey on July 08, 2008, 23:48:50
I seem to remember an episode of Top Gear where Clarkson used cooking oil in a VW Golf diesel and it ran OK.
Not going to do that to my car when it turns up...
Post by: CRM114 on July 09, 2008, 01:38:33
With regards to winter conditions the SAFF bio100 bowsers have a sign that states 'this product may contain up to 50% conventional diesel' or words to that effect (I don't remember exactly as I haven't seen one recently). I guess this is how they overcome the cold start problems.
As for the increased lubricity of bio, I understand that ultra low sulphur diesel is very hard on the injectors and pump as it is 'dryer' than the old fashioned high sulphur diesel. In fact Euro directives for ULS diesel are that a minimum (3% I think) bio is mandatory to overcome this shortcoming.
If there are any problems with bio it is that it is the natural enemy of rubber, and that all pipes and seals should be made of Vitton instead. The Vitton requirement is the same for ULS diesel as it is equally nasty to rubber. This is a goose and gander argument.
On a closing point, and I'm going to say no more on this as I see the usual FUD and self righteous commentary beginning to appear
, No manufacturer will guarantee their car against fuel related failures. This goes for standard diesel as well as for anything else.
Post by: TheBunyip on July 09, 2008, 03:45:22
Guess who has had a lot of fun looking into Bio-Fuels??
Did you guess?
Oui, C'est moi! :oops:
Post by: EymaTeapot on July 09, 2008, 04:12:59
Well done bunyip
Post by: CRM114 on July 09, 2008, 04:38:38
(where IS that angel emoticon).
The 1.6 engine in the Mazda, is it the same as the Pug 307/Cit C4 1.6 HDI?
I noticed the turbo in both my cars has the same part number (Garrett variable).
world cars indeed
Post by: bikejockey on July 09, 2008, 05:05:13
Post by: eye30 on July 09, 2008, 06:58:28
Quote from: "TheBunyip"
Hi All,
I will try to refrain from lots of waffle this time. (Probably the only time.)
I have done it again. Seems I can not keep a promise to myself. I still waffle.
May be waffle but full of good points .
Thanks
Post by: i30Dave on July 09, 2008, 08:51:59
now and not had one complaint from a customer yet. We sell two types of diesel.
Biodiesel which is 100% bio unless the weather is really cold and then we mix regular diesel
with it. And Premium Diesel which is about 80% regular diesel with biodiesel added to it.
Post by: EymaTeapot on July 09, 2008, 08:58:22
you own a petrol model but if you did own a deisel, Would you run it on biodeisel?
Post by: i30Dave on July 09, 2008, 09:03:22
of running it on Biodiesel. Modern diesel vehicles should have no trouble running on it.
It's just some of the older vehicles that would trouble with seals etc.
Post by: Lakes on July 09, 2008, 09:39:44
but good information.
does it atract the same taxs?
Post by: Lakes on July 09, 2008, 09:46:13
Post by: i30Dave on July 09, 2008, 09:59:40
out of premium diesel then regular diesel
Post by: Lakes on July 09, 2008, 10:08:11
i did not know there was a premium diesel and a regular diesel. i've only bought from BP & Mobile, how do i know what is premium/ also do you know what is different about the two?thanks M8
Post by: Dazzler on July 09, 2008, 10:46:54
Nice to see you (so to speak)... :shock: )
Rgds,
Dazz
P.S. (Bunyip you're a legend ... more handy research .. If I was younger i'd probably say "go you good thing..."
)
Post by: i30Dave on July 09, 2008, 10:55:54
the same price as diesel.
Post by: foxey on July 09, 2008, 13:12:06
In my Petrol engine I notice huge differences between fuel stations and especially when the discounts are on, my economy seems to get worse, but when I pay full price I seem to get good quality fuel, and if I use Shell V-Power then I can get upto 150kms extra per tank.. it seems that certain diesel stations are following this pattern, what are they doing to the fuel that we don't know about.. something is afoot ....
Post by: Lakes on July 09, 2008, 20:29:52
Also must be ok as i have never got less than about 5.2 /100k from new and got a best of 4.4 / 100k. i think different burn rate's effect economy, but i have never owned a diesel b4 so still learning diesel, just going from experience with petrol.
like Dave found he got better economy with 98 octain than 91 octain, as the 98 burns slower so if the compression ratio of the motor is high enough makes more power & Torque. but if compression was low would get better results from 91 octain. we also need to remember here in Australia and in Europe the octain is measured at the refinery in USA they measure the octain at the Pump, each time you pump fuel it looses some octain. thats why in USA they show 93 octain as premium but it's about same as our 98. when they dyno race motors all they want to know is MON ( Motor Octain Number )
Post by: TheBunyip on July 10, 2008, 03:32:33
So not all Diesel fuels are equal, but what do we do about it. If money is no object and you have the time to shop around buy the best Premium grade from a major producer like Shell or BP being careful to source it from a filling station with a high turnover to ensure we are getting fresh fuel. By premium I mean something like BP Ultimate http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9024404&contentId=7045297 or Shell V-Power Diesel http://www.shell.co.uk/home/content/gbr/products_services/on_the_road/fuels/v_power_diesel_pkg/when and where it is available.
I know that is good advice . It is also pretty impractical too for most of us. So what do you do if you have to use a Discount supplier or have no choice where you can fill up.
In the UK we can obtain a fuel additive that gives a performance and economy boost that seems to compensate for the shortcomings of Discount or Supermarket Diesel as the locals tend to call it. The product in question is Millers Diesel Power Sport 4 http://www.millersoils.net/M3_cgi/millers2.cgi?product_id=176&exact_match=on&type=automotive&cart_id=which is obtainable all over the place including Halfords. It is also available on ebay.co.uk and from several Internet retailers including this one. http://www.netparts.co.uk/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=19&products_id=82 I have included this one because they have a couple of customer reviews that you might find of interest.
Honest John a Dealer and a major Motoring Journalist who writes for one of the major UK Newspapers is a fan of the product. I have copied a letter and reply from one of his letter columns below. You can scroll down for the original here. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2007/02/24/mrjon24.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.jhtml?xml=/motoring/2007/02/24/mrjon24.xml
Millers tale
I suffered hesitation problems with my Ford Mondeo TDCi 130 diesel at about 1,800 to 2,200rpm. Rather than spend £85 to have my local Ford dealer plug it into his system and find no faults, I did as you suggested by paying £10 for some Millers diesel power additive and switching from a supermarket brand to Shell. The improvements in performance were immediate and the car is now smooth through its full rev range.
F.J., Locks Heath
# Thanks for letting me know - more proof that extra pennies spent on better fuel save pounds in the long run. Readers using additives should be careful to use Millers DieselPower Plus for EU3 engines and Millers DieselPower Sport 4 for EU4 engines.
So what do I use in the UK. Well for me the price difference between Supermarket regular and Premium diesel was a turn off. So I needed convincing that the extra money was worth paying for the BP product. (I could not buy Shell's V-Power Diesel with its preferred blend of GTL diesel in my locality)
A couple of full tanks of BPs Ultimate showed it to deliver a smoother ride at a slightly better consumption. I could not say more as the use was untypical for quite a large part of the use. Then I went back to the Supermarket stuff but added the Miller Sport 4 additive . For me that lift in Cetane numbers was enough. Ride at least as smooth as with the expensive BP offering and fuel consumption a slight improvement on the original additive free use. So I decided to stay with the Supermarket offering and add the Miller Sport additive.
Is there a similar product available in Ausrtralia?
OFF TOPIC
By the way did you know that Le Mans 24h was yet another Diesel fest this year. Audi 1st (again) using a Shell blend of Bio and GTL Diesel. Strategy beat the new boys from Peugeot with their new Diesel who still took 2nd and 3rd. Roll on Le Mans 2009 for yet more Diesel triumphs.
Post by: Lakes on July 10, 2008, 04:09:21
Here in Australia we are not that lucky to have a choice, like BP here have only one diesel, the ultimate is there 98 petrol, but they just have plain diesel written on there diesel pump. the bio diesel here in Sydney is mostly only sold at other than the major brands outlets. I think South Australia must have more choices as Dave said his outlet sell two types of diesel with different levels of bio content. no servo here in sydney that i have noticed label what % bio or what standard it meets, but it's a large city and must admit i do not check every servo we have.
I have been told about additives for diesel that can help economy but don't know much about them, i think the nature of the diesel design ( full air, and speed regulated by the amount of fuel injected ) i think this design would cause slight throttle lag, compare to petrol where the amount of air controls engine speed. but i rarely notice any lag when i drive my i30. but i took my V8 ute to work yesturday and it was instant GO every time i touched the throttle. but i still enjoy driving the i30 too.
Yes i knew diesel won Le Mans a few times, but have you ever read the class rules? they favor diesel, if it was equal the petrol would win. i have not seen any diesel dragsters try to take on a top fuel Nitro burning dragster to prove they make more all out HP or excellerate harder.
I used to race go karts when i was young, then raced super karts. i love all forms of motor sport, just saying there is different ways of proving what can make the best power but if you allow a larger displacement for one but restrict the displacement for another is that fair?
cheers mate.
Post by: Lakes on July 10, 2008, 04:25:03
I would like to try that aditive if you can find an outlet for it here in Australia?
thanks
John
Post by: EymaTeapot on July 10, 2008, 04:26:58
The website i located indicated a servo i Marrikville that supplys Bio deisel as well as a bio/pertodeisl mix.
Post by: TheBunyip on July 10, 2008, 05:14:46
Hi Lakes,
I for one do not know enough about the Le Mans rules to comment. I was aware that the Oil Burners now have to have smaller fuel tanks to balance things out but that is all I know. I thought that was supposed to satisfy the objections to Diesel advantages.
Post by: Lakes on July 10, 2008, 11:06:25
Bunyip, i don't know enough about Le Mans myself, but my friends Son worked in UK with a few race teams on motors, he went to Le Mans a few times worked in the pits on race cars, one year with a Class wining sportscar that ran a Jaguar motor, then latter they fitted a Chevy Le Mans V8 think it was LS7 they had to run restriction in the air intake to get that size motor in the class was 427 cubic inch.
now he is back here again and just got married i see him a lot, and when i got my diesel i was jokeing about diesel's rule at Le Mans, he said the class rules favour the diesel but if they were on equal terms would be different. he keeps in touch with racers that race over there, so i suppose they told him, i'll try to find out in more detail next time i see him.
Can you see if you can find out if that diesel additive has an agent in Australia thank you.
Cheers
Post by: foxey on July 10, 2008, 11:10:20
I understand if the octane is lower or in the case of petrol if it's crappy E10 then it would cheaper - but with this cheap diesel they don't tell us there is any difference - it is just labelled diesel.. thats all..
Post by: Lakes on July 10, 2008, 11:25:53
Post by: TheBunyip on July 11, 2008, 02:38:30
Cheap Discount fuels are as I understand it (and I could be wrong) fuels that meet or should meet the minimum legal standards in the country of sale. Unfortunately such fuels leave something to be desired. If Branded by an Oil company they will carry some additives to enhance the product to some extent. In the UK some years ago Tesco learned the need to do that the hard way when they started to compete with the big boys. Just my opinion.
For example Australia has reduced the amount of Sulphur (Sulfur) in Diesel in recent years but it is not yet down to the lowest level demanded by other countries so far as I know. Very low sulphur Diesel may be good for the environment but it is bad for engines unless its shortcomings are addressed by additives e.g. add 2% BioDiesel to restore the Lubricity required to protect the Injectors from very early failure. i30 Dave might be able to discover more as he works in the industry.
The Oil companies seek to gain competitive advantage by the additives introduced to improve some aspect of the product. Often the same fuel will be collected from a refinery by tankers working for different Oil companies and then have different additions to produce the standardised Oil Company product. From the earlier posts it seems that there is not yet much competition between the Oil companies in Australia for the sale of Diesel. Perhaps they think the Truckies and 4X4 community etc., who have been their traditional customers are not much swayed by Hype!!!
As for making our own additions like the UK's Miller Sport 4 (The '4' means it will not compromise Euro4 emission standards) well that depends on what is available in your local markets. It is available in New Zealand. See here http://www.millersoils.co.nz but not yet in Australia.
Millers replied to my email on Australian availability this morning. They are in discussions with a potential main importer so I guess Lakes will have to wait a bit before he can try it for himself. It might not hurt for a few Australian Diesel owners to email Millers Oils UK to ask to be notified when a local supplier is available. enquiries@millersoils.co.uk I would hope that that would encourage the importer to do the deal. The alternative of clubbing together to import a case would be much too expensive. A fact admitted by Millers Oils.
In the meantime someone in Australia might like to take a look at what a small local specialist offers. The company is PM Lubricants http://www.pmlubricants.com.au/pm_home.htm Their product PM800 Fuel System Conditioner - Petrol and Diesel was mentioned very favorably on one of the 4X4 forums. It might be as good or even better than the Millers Oil Product. Unfortunately PM Lubricants do not seem to publish much in terms of product descriptions as they are not focused on the ordinary motorist.