Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 02, 2018, 00:14:43
2 years ago, a a month after I bought my i30 (it was owned by someone else previously), I had a CEL with a P0404 code that was set while on a long road trip in the month of July, after driving 1000+ kms on the highway in one day. Since it was under warranty, I took it to the dealership and, after having the car for a couple of hours in their workshop, they said the EGR system was fine, and it's most likely caused by carbon deposits in the combustion chamber. They told me to start using diesel additives, to help clean the injectors etc. I did that, even though I was unhappy to spend more money on fueling, diesel cars are advertised as being cheap to run, after all. Anyway, using additives seemed to have helped, I didn't have another CEL for almost 2 years. I should maybe add that my job restricted me from using the car in the hottest months of 2017.
This year, since mid April, right when the weather started to become warmer, with temperatures above 20 C, I had the CEL on again, with P0404, AGAIN. It was accompanied by an almost imperceptible rough idle at start and acceleration hesitation at operating temperature. I took the EGR valve out, expecting to find it clogged with soot, but I was very surprised to see that it was actually pretty clean, it only had a thin layer of soot deposits. I cleaned it as best as I could with aerosol EGR cleaner and measured the resistance. It was 8 ohms, within spec. I replaced it, cleared the code and drove for about a week without any issues. I noticed that, during that time, the weather cooled down a little bit, with temperatures under 18 C.
Now, the next time the air temperature hit 20 C, the car started to hesitate a lot when accelerating and it even went into limp home mode a couple of times. I thought it was the Turbo's fault, as it gave no boost during limp home mode, but after some research, I found out that is what limping home does, it cuts off the Turbo and keeps the EGR closed at all times, also.
After a couple more hesitant drives, the CEL came on with the same P0404 code. I bought a more powerful diesel additive (at least that's what they advertised it as), dumped it in the tank following the instructions, and drove with the CEL on for a few more days. Because I had the MOT a few days ago, I cleared the code to shut the CEL off, went to the MOT in the morning, passed the test, and on the way home, just as the temperature gauge showed 20 C, the car went into limp mode and by the time I was home, the CEL came back on.
I started to check other systems and found that one of the glow plugs is showing a resistance of over 100 ohms, while all the others showed only 1 ohm, so I ordered 4 new ones, plus a new camshaft sensor (as I understood the EGR and fuel systems, if this sensor goes bad, it can mess with them also and it doesn't always set a code for it). Once I change them, I will clear the code again and see what happens.
Something else that I learned yesterday, is that I can use the Torque app to create logs of the systems it can monitor with the ELM 327 OBDII bluetooth scan tool. So, during a drive today, I logged the EGR and other system monitors and found something weird: the EGR valve's lowest commanded position is 4.7% (even at idle and full load) and the EGR Error is at 0% in this situation. When it is commanded to open, it does so to max 94.9% and max 7.5% Error, but at mid values of commanded EGR, the Error can be -20% to, a few times, 99%. This must mean the valve is sticking, right? I didn't clean the pipes leading to and from it, because they looked like they also had just a thin layer of soot, but if someone thinks they might be clogged in a place that I can't see, I will take the whole intake apart and see if there's a blockage somewhere.
Does anyone know if I can check the EGR valve some other way? Is it possible to manually open it at idle without an expensive two way scan tool, to see if the engine stalls, which would mean the valve itself is operating normally?
Is it possible that the hot weather would affect the normal operation of the valve? I had no issues even in -15C weather, I drove a 5000 kms trip this winter without a problem, plus I moved 100kms away in February, made a lot of trips between the former and new homes. It all started after the outside temperatures exceeded 20C.
Oh yeah, fuel consumption increased with 1.3 l/100 km too, which is definitely not normal, as I also changed the winter tyres with summer ones.
Sorry for the long post, I want to be as precise as possible. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Post by: Dazzler on June 02, 2018, 07:27:34
That must be our longest 1st post ever. But that's not a problem. Quite the reverse. The more info the better. Hope someone can help.
If I tried to write a post that long it would error out and I'd have to do it all again. :crazy1:
Sounds very frustrating. I wonder if a new diesel filter would help sort it. Limp home is often related to fuel filter issues. :undecided:
Post by: Dazzler on June 02, 2018, 12:15:30
Post by: CraigB on June 02, 2018, 12:59:22
The webpage does mention the EGR valve might open and close correctly though only has to have some slight sticking/jerking movement and that enough to set off the sensor.
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 02, 2018, 14:36:24
I replaced the fuel filter last year/25000 km ago and, from what I can gather on the internet and this forum, the filter problem was restricted to the EURO 4 i30 1.6 CRDi U engine, mine is a EURO 5 1.6 CRDi U2 engine.
https://youtu.be/te_kapz-fj4
I saw this video today and used it to manually command the EGR valve to open, with key in ignition but engine turned off. I monitored the sensor with the Torque app while doing so and, weirdly enough, the EGR desired position went from 4.7% to 0%. I expected it to go up to at least 95%, not down... I could hear the pindle moving inside as I was shorting the control. I must be missing something. Unless the EGR position sensor is broken.
I didn't have the courage to short the control while the engine was on, but that will be the next thing later today. I will also look for ways to check the wiring and compare the voltages I measure to what the spec ones are (I need to find these specs).
I will wait for the new glow plugs to arrive before I will take apart the intake, although at this point I don't see a reason to do that, the error code is strictly for the egr range/performance, it is not a flow code.
Oh well, I will go through the instructions CraigB shared and try anything I haven't already, see what I come up with.
Thanks again, will update if I find something new!
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Post by: Dazzler on June 02, 2018, 21:55:14
Before you change the glow plugs make sure you read all the treads about it on here as if they are really tight it can be a nightmare getting the old ones out. From memory the two main things are to squirt WD40 or similar around them a day or two before and let it penetrate and remove them from a warm engine. :undecided:
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 02, 2018, 23:24:02
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Post by: tw2005 on June 03, 2018, 00:23:11
Glancing on what you say , why not just replace the EGR?
P0404 is set when EGR actuator is stuck.
• EGR actuator stuck
• EGR actuator component
Post by: tw2005 on June 03, 2018, 00:27:27
Check if "AIR MASS PERCYLINDER"l is 340mg/st ± 50mg/st without EEGR operation at warm idle (Electric EGR control valve 6% duty)
Post by: tw2005 on June 03, 2018, 00:31:57
Measure the resistance between power terminal and control terminal of EGR actuator (component side).
(4) Is EEGR actuator component resistance within the specification?
▶ Go to "2. Check EEGR actuator operation condition" as follows.
▶ Replace EEGR actuator and go to "Verification of Vehicle Repair".
2. Check EEGR actuator operation condition
(1) IG KEY "OFF", ENGINE "OFF"
(2) Check that MAFS is installed in correctly according to the direction of arrow on MAFS assy’.
(3) Check contamination of air cleaner filter.
(4) IG KEY "ON", ENGINE "ON".
(5) Let IDLE RPM last after warming engine up.
(6) Check the leakage of intake system(the leakage or damage of intercooler).
(7) Check that VGT operates correctly.( Check if vacuum operating state of VGT actuator is appropriate, if VGT diaphragm and unison ring are stuck.)
(8) Check that EEGR actuator does not operate.
( EEGR actuator turns "OFF" and 6% duty is outputted 1 min. after rapid acceleration. )
(9) Monitor signal voltage of MAFS when engine speed lasts at approx. 800RPM using Scantool.
(10) Check MAFS output signal at idle after rapid acceleration.(EEGR actuator duty 50%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Specification : When EEGR actuator does not operate (6%) at idle : 340mg/st ± 50 mg/st
When EEGR actuator operates(50%) at idle : 200mg/st ± 50 mg/st
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secification : 7.3~ 8.8Ω (30°C)
(https://i.imgur.com/Dq3Z7hl.jpg)
Post by: Dazzler on June 03, 2018, 02:25:26
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 03, 2018, 23:37:38
I would like to avoid buying a new EGR valve, as they are pretty expensive. The cheapest aftermarket valve I could find was 250 euro, somewhere in Germany, the original one in a danish car parts shop is around 700 euro (almost as much as a brand new DPF). I checked the wiring and all the EGR valve pins with a multimeter and everything is within spec.
My scan tool can only display MAFS readings, unfortunately no fuel trim or airflow per cillynder...
At this point, diagnosing this problem is proving to be too exciting to just give up :D.
This morning, I took the valve and EGR cooler out. They seemed fine, but found that the valve was sticking a little bit when I operated the pintle using pliers.
I then tried to blow air through the cooler. I was surprised to realise that I could not do it, the cooler was clogged inside.
After using half of an aerosol EGR cleaner can with no real effect, I turned to the oven cleaner that I had in the kitchen. That stuff is the best carbon build up cleaner I have ever seen!
I cleaned the throttle with it also, then rinsed all the parts with a mix of wd40 and engine cleaner. Don't want oven cleaner ending up in the engine. The insides looked almost like new, and I could blow air through the cooler freely!
After I put everything back together, I monitored the EGR with the scantool while starting the car. This was the roughest start I have seen this car have, ever. EGR position values were erratic, and I thought the engine would stall, but after a few seconds it was operating normally while the EGR value went down to 4.7%.
I drove around a bit, got the engine to 90 C and the car felt good to drive. And then, the acceleration hesitation came back... I didn't get a CEL yet, but I am sure it will light up in the next few days.
Oh well, I won't give up yet. I am still waiting for the new glow plugs and I might take the intake manifold out and clean it some time soon, it looked sooty and who knows how much carbon build up it might have in the out of sight places. I'll have to buy a new gasket and more oven cleaner lol
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Post by: tw2005 on June 04, 2018, 09:41:30
$178 USD plus shipping from Korea or 152 EURO + freight, no idea what duties you have, brand new genuine @ KORAPS
I'm confused with Romania and Denmark in the profile :confused:
Post by: Dazzler on June 04, 2018, 09:58:48
I'm confused with Romania and Denmark in the profile :confused:
A quick IP check says Bogdan is in Denmark, so maybe the Romanian flag is an error (unless you are a Romanian living in Denmark Bogdan?)
Post by: tw2005 on June 04, 2018, 10:01:59
You're really not retired but working for the FEDs, are'nt you DAZZ :idea:
I'm confused with Romania and Denmark in the profile :confused:
A quick IP check says Bogdan is in Denmark, so maybe the Romanian flag is an error (unless you are a Romanian living in Denmark Bogdan?)
Post by: Dazzler on June 04, 2018, 10:19:22
Post by: tw2005 on June 04, 2018, 10:38:28
I've still got my fingers in a lot of pies.. :snigger: :PSo long as it's not "American Pie" :snigger:
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 04, 2018, 11:01:22
The part number on the EGR valve is 284102A300, they have it on koraps for 10 bucks more, thanks tw2005!
I will write to them, see if they know how I can pay less import tax. From what I know, the danish customs taxes everything with 25% of the value, plus the postal office charges 20-25 euro for the service of calculating the tax lol.
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Post by: tw2005 on June 04, 2018, 18:12:44
284102A300,:link: i20 10- i30 09- CEED 09- RIO 12- SOUL 09- GeNuiNe EGR VALVE 284102A300 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/i20-10-i30-09-CEED-09-RIO-12-SOUL-09-GeNuiNe-EGR-VALVE-284102A300/122826187583?epid=1570877204&hash=item1c9902e33f:g:i90AAOSwJkJWicYl#shpCntId)
Keep this in mind, + gasket, free delivery.
I recently purchased 2 ball joints which worked out cheaper via Ebay than their own site which you would not expect given they thieve at least 10%.
I think they may have marked on the box gift I'd have to find it to check
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/i90AAOSwJkJWicYl/s-l1600.jpg)
Post by: adrek on June 04, 2018, 20:03:19
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 04, 2018, 23:12:20
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Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 04, 2018, 23:17:38
Is it possible to do it with the cheap ELM 327 + Torque app that I have?
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Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 04, 2018, 23:40:53
When reading this topic I may have missed something, but if you could attach graph on how EGR works while driving it would be awesome. I do not want to worry you but I had few cases where engine ECU was causing P0404. But to confirm it for you I need to see EGR graph.
Apparently there's a plug in for the Torque Pro app that creates graphs of your car's sensors, called 'Realtime Charts for Torque Pro'. Did anyone use it before and can confirm it is accurate?
I think the outside temperature has an effect, I didn't have any problems when it was under 18C.
My research into this matter found a common EGR problem in some early 00's Volvos, caused by the ECU overheating. Some people on that forum had success with attaching a computer fan to it (somehow).
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Post by: Skovsgaard on June 05, 2018, 10:13:52
I experience the same symptoms as you so well have described. My car workshop replaced my EGR valve and told me that should fix the problem - but the symptoms returned (when the temperature raised above 20 degrees)! So to take matters in to own hands (with no mechanical experience in that area) I bought a Bluetooth OBDII scanner from Bluedriver, hoping to get a more fully diagnostic of my vehicle. I discovered that in my case there is an correlation between AC ON/OFF and the EGR command. I have attached a graph showing the trends of the EGR Command (0-100%) and EGR Errror (-100 - 100%). The areas with high peaks are when the AC is OFF (delayed and bad motor acceleration) and the areas with small peaks are when the AC is ON (momentary and good motor acceleration).
@Bogdan1986, do you have the same experience with the AC?
@adrek, can you tell something from the attached graph?
Regards
(https://preview.ibb.co/iraqtT/image1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cB4Tf8)
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 05, 2018, 14:46:08
I'm sorry you're having issues with your car, but I must say, I'm glad I don't feel like I'm crazy anymore.
Unfortunately, my AC doesn't work. Another thing I noticed when the temperature went up...
I did go to a shop to have the AC system serviced, they filled it with gas and dye, and said it was empty, so they suspect a leak. I was to contact them when the AC would show signs it doesn't work again. Ofcourse, a week later it wasn't cooling so well anymore, so I made an appointment with the same shop to find and fix the leak. The date: 12.06. So, I can't test the AC - EGR correlation until they are done with it.
However, I did notice a change in engine tone whenever I would engage or disengage the AC during the week it did work... So there could be a link.
I am curious what @adrek can interpret from the graph you shared!
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Post by: adrek on June 05, 2018, 17:58:44
Post by: Dazzler on June 05, 2018, 18:12:39
Post by: Skovsgaard on June 05, 2018, 18:25:29
Thanks for your reply.
It will be interesting to see if you experience the same behavior with the AC as I do!
Post by: Skovsgaard on June 05, 2018, 18:31:37
Thanks for your reply as well.
I agreed, the graph is not that good and yes it is from a 21 min recording.
I will make a better graph within the next days and add RPM, speed etc.
Looking forward to see the screenshot from GDS.
Post by: adrek on June 05, 2018, 21:09:03
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 06, 2018, 21:41:14
I just came back from visiting a friend that lives 50km away. When I left, I had the check engine light on, P0404 trouble code. Outside temperature : 25C. All the way there, the engine didn't rev over 2900 rpm, no matter how hard I tried.
When I left his house, outside temperature was 19C. Check engine light on. I stopped to answer nature's call after about 20km. When I started the engine again, check engine light was off, outside temperature: 18C. All the rest of the way home, accelaration was responsive and I could rev over 2900 rpm, while outside temperature went down a couple degrees more.
Otherwise, cleaning the egr cooler proved to have a positive effect, fuel consumption went down to normal values.
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Post by: adrek on June 07, 2018, 17:53:39
(https://i.imgur.com/pcTUhiN.jpg)
I replaced EGR, made new harness and it did not help, later friend told me about ECU issues.. :)
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 07, 2018, 19:27:34
I think I have what I need to make a graph of the EGR, what other parameters do you need, besides engine RPM and Speed?
Over how many seconds should it be done? Should the speed be constant throughout the graph?
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Post by: adrek on June 07, 2018, 21:02:32
Post by: tw2005 on June 07, 2018, 21:48:11
Here you go, driving speed was stable, RPM also, EGR actuator was behaving like this:So has the ECU been replaced and confirmed was the fault? I'm wondering at the graph, that could be duty cycle of 41% which could mean the EGR was open. manual mentions at about 43% it's open, 5 % closed. I notice the graph shows 5% - 50% as the min - max recorded, Just some thoughts really
(https://i.imgur.com/pcTUhiN.jpg)
I replaced EGR, made new harness and it did not help, later friend told me about ECU issues.. :)
Post by: adrek on June 07, 2018, 21:50:33
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 08, 2018, 00:51:47
These graphs are from that drive. As you might notice, the first one is taken when coolant temperature was under 70C, the second when it was at ~90C. To me, it looks nothing like the bad ECU graph.
What do you think, @adrek, bad EGR valve, after all?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180607/1d8f6477354845271af8463762bbcfac.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180607/c4321ca85c7e625f5ee02acab6f67996.jpg)
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Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 08, 2018, 01:02:17
I changed the glow plugs and went for a short drive. Nothing changed.
These graphs are from that drive. As you might notice, the first one is take when coolant temperature was under 70C, the second when it was at ~90C. To me, it looks nothing like the bad ECU graph.
What do you think, @adrek, bad EGR valve, after all?
Just in case tapatalk didn't upload the pics.
http://imgur.com/gallery/lwmYbpL
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Post by: Skovsgaard on June 08, 2018, 20:21:45
:link: EGR investigation - Album on Imgur (https://imgur.com/a/LiH9xNj)
#1
Running with A/C ON.
Immediate response when accelerating.
The engine is calm and stable.
#2
Running with A/C OFF.
Delayed and bad response when accelerating.
The engine is chocking and unstable.
A thought: “If the engine is “dirty” inside and produces “dirty” exhaust gas – I guess that would somehow chock the engine when the EGR is opening 100% and recirculating the “dirty” exhaust gas”.
I have used Bell-Add for the last two weeks according to the workshop recommendations. Additionally I have been considering a more effective engine cleaning.
The correlation between A/C ON(#1) and OFF(#2) is still a mystery...
#3
This graph is showing the same situation as Bogdan1986s latest comment describes (rpm limited to 2900 rpm). As the graphs shows the EGR is closed at all times, which means an immediate response when accelerating and a calm and stable engine.
Why the limitation in rpm aroused is unknown to me…
Shutting of the engine and starting it again clears the limitation.
----------------
@adrek: What do you think?
----------------
For some reason i couldn´t see your latest posts adrek and Bogdan1986. But I can see now that you have both submitted graphs.
@adrek: In the case with bad ECU, where there other symptoms beside the incorrect driving of the EGR?
Post by: tw2005 on June 09, 2018, 09:31:36
(https://i.imgur.com/0JiJuy6.png)
Post by: adrek on June 14, 2018, 18:54:02
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 14, 2018, 21:38:48
The ELM plugs are cheap, I would love to use GDS, but I can't find an affordable one...
I don't trust dealerships, otherwise I would pay to have them diagnose the problem. However, I only hear stories where they throw parts at the car and the problems come back. It's certainly something that will happen in my case, with an intermitent fault.
Anyway, thanks for your help, guys!
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Post by: tw2005 on June 14, 2018, 21:39:46
GDS screen looks good for me. Screens from ELM327, I don't know, these OBD plugs are too slow in my opinion to read data and show graph, look at peaks in GDS or my mobile GDS - data is way more detailed. Anyway these graphs seem to be good. My input was just suggestion to check EGR graph, because it costs nothing and potentially could save you some money in the end :):goodjob2: :goodjob:
Post by: tw2005 on June 14, 2018, 21:42:49
There is a trend that I noticed, and that is the fact that EGR error is way out of acceptable range only at operating temperature. I ordered a new EGR valve, I ran out of stuff to check and rule out.Mine just an Ebay Chinese knockoff but the software they give is US based so I had to go hunting for Europe version, loading the software was painful and a dedicated laptop is a good idea, does not need to be a fancy one
The ELM plugs are cheap, I would love to use GDS, but I can't find an affordable one...
I don't trust dealerships, otherwise I would pay to have them diagnose the problem. However, I only hear stories where they throw parts at the car and the problems come back. It's certainly something that will happen in my case, with an intermitent fault.
Anyway, thanks for your help, guys!
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Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 14, 2018, 21:47:47
Quote
Mine just an Ebay Chinese knockoff but the software they give is US based so I had to go hunting for Europe version, loading the software was painful and a dedicated laptop is a good idea, does not need to be a fancy one
Can you help me with a link or a model number? :D
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Post by: Skovsgaard on June 17, 2018, 13:18:22
Hi Skovsgaard!
I'm sorry you're having issues with your car, but I must say, I'm glad I don't feel like I'm crazy anymore.
Unfortunately, my AC doesn't work. Another thing I noticed when the temperature went up...
I did go to a shop to have the AC system serviced, they filled it with gas and dye, and said it was empty, so they suspect a leak. I was to contact them when the AC would show signs it doesn't work again. Ofcourse, a week later it wasn't cooling so well anymore, so I made an appointment with the same shop to find and fix the leak. The date: 12.06. So, I can't test the AC - EGR correlation until they are done with it.
However, I did notice a change in engine tone whenever I would engage or disengage the AC during the week it did work... So there could be a link.
I am curious what @adrek can interpret from the graph you shared!
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Hi Bogdan1986
I´m curious to hear if you see a correlation between aircondition ON/OFF and EGR steering after you have had your aircondition fixed.
Here are some graphs showing the phenomenon (posted earlier): :link: EGR investigation - Album on Imgur (https://imgur.com/a/LiH9xNj)
Regards
Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 17, 2018, 16:31:32
Driving with AC on doesn't seem to make any difference. I get the same hesitation.
However, regardless of wether the AC is on or off, when I press the acceleration, instead of the egr closing, it stays on for another second or so, and when it does finally close, I get a sudden power surge. In the limp home mode, the valve stays shut for me too. I ordered a new EGR valve, I'll install it when it arrives and see what happens, hopefully I've been chasing a ghost so far.
My problem only appears after the engine is warm; if coolant is under 70 C, the acceleration is responsive and I don't have any rev limitation.
I did have one instance on the motorway, a couple of days ago, when the revs were limited to 2900 rpm. 10 minutes later, the DPF regeneration process kicked in and the rev limitation went away. On the return trip, the limitation was back on. Funny...
Did you notice anything new?
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Post by: Bogdan1986 on June 28, 2018, 08:26:52
Can anyone tell me what is the normal intake air temperature at highway speeds? I could only find some info on other car makes and it appears that it shouldn't be more than 10 degrees over outside temperature. I can't find normal values for FD i30's.
I ask because I noticed that my IAT (as read by the Torque app) is 50-53 C at 26C outside temp. This sensor should be the one on the intercooler and it is the only one that I didn't change in the EGR system, as I changed the MAFS a couple of months ago. It should be the one most affected by outside temperature, from what I understand about it.
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