i30 Owners Club
GOT PROBLEMS OR ISSUES? => PETROL => Topic started by: stami on March 28, 2010, 14:26:12
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Good day!
Last year i bought Hyundai I30 1.6(122hp) AT Style with ESP.
This winter a few times when it was heavy snow(I live in Russia :) ESP switched engine off while I was driving.
I tried to enter ~60 degrees turn with a little bit bigger speed than i must had done it. My car kept on going, while engine had been switched off.
I asked Hyundai Motor Company in Russia and my dealer to solve this problem. When we had test drive, I couldn't show them, that my car is switching engine off. But when i made a sideslip with a parking brake, it happened.
Now they say, that i shouldn't use parking brake blah-blah-blah....
But i used it only to make a sideslip to engage ESP working and to show them my problem.
I'm very anxious about this situation, because it may cause serious injury once upon a time.
In our I30 clubs some people have such problem, but I don't know how do they solve it(if they want, of course).
Maybe some of you have this problem too?
Please, I need your help to gather as much information as I can.
Thank you!
P.S. Sorry for my english.
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Hi, welcome to the club.
Does the engine completely die or does it simply shut down the power (close throttle) until steering direction is corrected?
From my understanding, power will be cut during ESP intervention.
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Hi stami
I have now gone through two Winters in Scotland where we have had heavy snow (though I would guess nothing like you may see in Russia) and have nothing but praise for the ESP system, at no point has it ever switched my engine off, it has only ever regulated the revs to prevent wheelspin and has only ever felt safe in my opinion.
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Hi everyone!
Pip
Yes, ESP does completely switch my engine off(as we put the key in first position) - I see plenty of indicaors on my dashboard. But it happens rarely - most of time - it just regulates the throttle(~1000-2000 rpm).
A few hours today I tried to get a video of my problem and I could't do anything - ESP was working well.
bumpkin
You're lucky) more than me at least :)
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Does it only happen when the handbrake is applied whilst driving?
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Lorian, nope - a few times it happened when I was driving normally - in the city, without handbrake. I guessed to try it just to make a sideslip like I had had earlier.
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Definitely something not right.
Have another go with your dealer and explain that if tehy can't sort it you will refer this to the national vehicle operator, or whatever they are called in your country, for them to investigate.
I'm sure the dealer will sort it out pronto.
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In our I30 clubs some people have such problem, but I don't know how do they solve it(if they want, of course).
Do you have a link to the thread about this on your forum?
Я знаю, что будет на русском языке.
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eye30
I've already done it. Hyundai Motor Russia answered me, that my car works as it must. And engine can be switched off for my safety....hm.....safety...so the mean that having no brakes, steering etc. while driving is normal. I do not agree with their opinion and want them to remove this malfunction or return my money back.
Lorian
that's my topic
http://club.hyundai-i30.ru/viewtopic.php?t=1177&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
the same problem with Kia Ceed on another forum
http://ceedclub.ru/forums/index.php/topic,21196.0.html
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thanks, I'll have a look.
Have you tried an OBD-II reader to see if there are any stored error codes in the ecu?
does it only happen on petrol engine cars?
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http://club.hyundai-i30.ru/viewtopic.php?t=1177&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Google trans (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fclub.hyundai-i30.ru%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D1177%26postdays%3D0%26postorder%3Dasc%26start%3D0&sl=ru&tl=en)
I wouldn't want my i30 to power off during a slide. I hope you get a good explanation for it.
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One of our members who now has a SanteFe reported that if you try and use the accellerator and brake at the same time in situations where the ESP will cut in there is an engine cut out function (he also considered this dangerous) but by my understanding this is not unusual in other brands of car with ESP... I guess that heal and toe driving (trying to use accellerator and brake at same time ) is not recommended in cars with ESP..
Is it possible this is what you were doing on these occassions...?
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It's not possible to heel and toe in an i30, at least not without a modification.
Is the problem seen on a car with Automatic transaxle (automatic gearbox)?
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Lorian - If you'll have a problem with russian - i can explain what i mean in my topic :)
I have petrol engine 1.6 Gamma(as far as i remember).
Two dealers haven't found any errors. More of it - we tried VCI module - and when ESP switched the engine off - it just said that "engine is off".
Shambles - thank you for help
Dazzler
Hm...definetely i didn't use such tactics, but i think I should try this.
My father has Nissan Qashqai(with ESP), and I've been driving it for whole winter, but we haven't noticed such incorrect ESP "conduct"
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Lorian - If you'll have a problem with russian - i can explain what i mean in my topic :)
I have petrol engine 1.6 Gamma(as far as i remember).
The translation is OK.
You have an automatic gearbox? I trust you are not using "P" on the gearbox to try to cause the problem?
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Lorian, yes i have ATM. And i really do not use "P" on the run.
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One of our members who now has a SanteFe reported that if you try and use the accellerator and brake at the same time in situations where the ESP will cut in there is an engine cut out function (he also considered this dangerous) but by my understanding this is not unusual in other brands of car with ESP... I guess that heal and toe driving (trying to use accellerator and brake at same time ) is not recommended in cars with ESP..
Is it possible this is what you were doing on these occassions...?
IIRC only the power was cut, not the engine killed - which I'd consider a serious malfunction.
WRT the heel and toe, I occasionally use it during downshifts when "enjoying" my drive. It causes no problems as the engine power is only overridden when the ESP is active. I.e., when the car is pointing where the wheels aint. 8)
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One of our members who now has a SanteFe reported that if you try and use the accellerator and brake at the same time in situations where the ESP will cut in there is an engine cut out function (he also considered this dangerous) but by my understanding this is not unusual in other brands of car with ESP... I guess that heal and toe driving (trying to use accellerator and brake at same time ) is not recommended in cars with ESP..
Is it possible this is what you were doing on these occassions...?
i heal and toe brake often,i doesnt seam to bother the esp.
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It's not possible to heel and toe in an i30, at least not without a modification.
Is the problem seen on a car with Automatic transaxle (automatic gearbox)?
its possable,i assure you.
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shambles has mentioned a couple of times that if you disconnect the battery for a while it can reset things,maybee that might help.cant hurt to try.
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Just a thought:
Have you changed the size of the wheels?
are the tyres under/over inflated?
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eye30
Now wheel size is 195/65/15 instead of 16, but this is recomended by Hyundai.
Tyre Pressure is ok.
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Now wheel size is 195/65/15 instead of 16, but this is recomended by Hyundai.
Just thinking outside the box.
If the wheel size has changed from what was originally on the car, does the computer need to be updated so it will recogonise the slight change in wheel size?
Worth asking at the dealers.
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It's not possible to heel and toe in an i30, at least not without a modification.
Is the problem seen on a car with Automatic transaxle (automatic gearbox)?
its possable,i assure you.
Not on my car, not really. I sometimes left foot brake rather than actually heel and toe and as soon as you touch the brake pedal in my car the engine power is retarded. This functionality may vary from country to country. Our peugeot 207 does a similar thing, and reduces the engine power almost completely and flags an error on the dash.
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Now wheel size is 195/65/15 instead of 16, but this is recomended by Hyundai.
Just thinking outside the box.
If the wheel size has changed from what was originally on the car, does the computer need to be updated so it will recogonise the slight change in wheel size?
Worth asking at the dealers.
Geez M8 I think that is a wheel long shot :eek:
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It's not possible to heel and toe in an i30, at least not without a modification.
its possable,i assure you.
This has got me puzzled.
I read this post yesterday and went through today thinking about it. Coming home tonight, I had a deliberate "play" through all the roundabouts and nice winding road into my suburb. Heel and toe - no problem. My puzzlement came from the fact that I often do it when I'm "playing" and hadn't noticed anything different to any previous car, back to my Datsun and Renault ralling days.
So I don't understand. Even if the power is reduced as stated above, you aren't really accelerating when you heel and toe, just braking and slipping down a cog whilst matching engine revs. Mine does it very smoothly - better probably than my previous Impreza.
Am I missing something here?
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Hi Trev,
Apparently if you use the accellerator and brake concurrently in most cars with ESP the ECU will cut power to some degree if the system feels the car is getting out of control (I don't have ESP and havent driven a car with ESP in anger - so can't say I've experience this phenomenon)
It was reported by Thumper somewhere on here and by one or two others I think...
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If I left foot brake while driving normally the engine power is cut/reduced but the engine is not killed... this seems to be the design and for me moot because I'm not a left foot braker (except when driving an automatic, two feet, two pedals :D).
What I observed though, is that there is about a one second delay before the power is reduced which it seems is insufficient time to interfere with heel and toe gear changes.
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If I left foot brake while driving normally the engine power is cut/reduced but the engine is not killed... this seems to be the design and for me moot because I'm not a left foot braker (except when driving an automatic, two feet, two pedals :D).
What I observed though, is that there is about a one second delay before the power is reduced which it seems is insufficient time to interfere with heel and toe gear changes.
Interesting. I'll have to do some more experimentation. There is no doubt that when I heel and toe, I am on the brake for a lot longer than one second - obviously - as I am braking to lose enough speed to drop a gear (sometimes two) and then negotiate the corner.
A little side issue here. I'm actaully "toe and toeing" in the i30 because of the position of the accelerator pedal. When I was younger I used to scare the hell out of my mates by using only my big toe to apply the brake. (Always loved driving in bare feet - still do). No matter how hard I needed to brake my big toe was up to it.
Driving home from Brisbane today (in bare feet) I realised I use my big toe on the brake and roll my foot over so my little toe and part of the side of my foot work the accelerator. :cool: :rolleyes:
Oh! And yes. I do have ESP.
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If I left foot brake while driving normally the engine power is cut/reduced but the engine is not killed... this seems to be the design and for me moot because I'm not a left foot braker (except when driving an automatic, two feet, two pedals :D).
What I observed though, is that there is about a one second delay before the power is reduced which it seems is insufficient time to interfere with heel and toe gear changes.
Interesting. I'll have to do some more experimentation. There is no doubt that when I heel and toe, I am on the brake for a lot longer than one second - obviously - as I am braking to lose enough speed to drop a gear (sometimes two) and then negotiate the corner.
A little side issue here. I'm actaully "toe and toeing" in the i30 because of the position of the accelerator pedal. When I was younger I used to scare the hell out of my mates by using only my big toe to apply the brake. (Always loved driving in bare feet - still do). No matter how hard I needed to brake my big toe was up to it.
Driving home from Brisbane today (in bare feet) I realised I use my big toe on the brake and roll my foot over so my little toe and part of the side of my foot work the accelerator. :cool: :rolleyes:
Oh! And yes. I do have ESP.
But are you pressing the brake and the accellerator together for longer than a second? Unlikely unless you heel and toe very differently to me. :wink:
And yes, I drive barefoot in the summer often and because I normally press the brake pedal on the bottom right corner only this really requires one to use the big toe when barefoot. So we agree on that one... doesn't everyone brake that way? However, I would say I'm pressing the accellerator with the side of my foot more than my heel or other toes... it's just not setup to get the heel on unless one has very dainty feet. :rolleyes:
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^^^
No. I'm definitely only pressing the brake for longer than one second. But I thought that was the point of the discussion - that applying the brake reduces/ cuts engine power. I blip the throttle at the point of the gear change (and because of the fact that the accelerator pedal hinges from the top I just roll by foot slightly to the right and my little toe comes in contact with it fairly high up (pretty well in line with where I'm in contact with the brake pedal). And when I blip the throttle, there's plenty of revs there and if you get your timing wrong as you let the clutch out, the car surges forward. Hence I don't feel there is any engine power loss happening.
Interesting discussion this. Not really a thread hijack as it relates to the original subject. :idea:
ps. Glad I'm not the only "big toe braker" in Oz. :wink:
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^^^
No. I'm definitely only pressing the brake for longer than one second. But I thought that was the point of the discussion - that applying the brake reduces/ cuts engine power.
Interesting discussion this. Not really a thread hijack as it relates to the original subject. :idea:
ps. Glad I'm not the only "big toe braker" in Oz. :wink:
No, you are missing the point of my reply to the original problem. As I understand it, the logic is that the brake will override the throttle - if both are pressed at the same time.
I'm assuming this is a simple safety measure which might avoid things like "stuck" CC or throttle that has been seen in some Fords and Toyota of late.
To leave it possible to momentarily press both together (as in heel and toe) there is a time delay before the power is cut.
All supposition on my part.
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I just did a quick google search and the very first hit was this discussion on a VW forum (interesting)
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-53262.html
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the more i read the more I'm confused on this matter.if i put my 2.0 petrol manual hatch into a corner it bogs down if it sences a slide or wheelspin but it doesn't stall, it just looses power.
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Two different things have been discussed leading to some confusion.
1) What the OP was asking about is whether ESP should completely stall the engine when it acts. According to him it did somtimes and sometimes not. Answer is that we think it should not and noone else has reported this problem.
I don't know if the fuel is completely cut or just limited when ESP intervenes but if it's cut completely (or to an idle supply) I guess it's possible if directional control (according to the ESP sensors) is not regained before the engine revs fall below the limit where it can continue to run, it might just stall in the same way it will if you allow the revs to fall too low while in gear and under load. In other words if ESP never gets the car "straightened out" so you can continue on it might ultimately stall the engine. Assuming manual.
2) The second thing that was discussed is the engine power also being cut whenever the brake and accellerator were applied together. While some of the same sensors and logic may be involved this is a separate thing and probably just a sensible safety measure to allow the brake to stop the car in any circumstance where the throttle may be stuck or pressed by the driver along with the brake which for most situations is illogical.
3) There is one other thing that has been discussed before and that is in essense a combination of these two things by inadvertently invoking an ESP "event" by juditious use of left foot braking to provoke a controlled rear-end slide (oversteer) while negotiating a corner at speed. This manoevre cuts the power to the engine just when you most wanted it! Whether the power is cut by sensing situation (1) or (2) above, I don't know. Probably just a standard ESP intervention (1) unless the brake is applied sufficiently long to invoke (2). The handbake could be used similarly.
As I said before, I have no knowledge of how the logic works and I'm just guessing.
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Given all that has been said I think that he should contact the Hy dealer and request a full review of the ESP system on his car.
He should be putting forward some of the comments raised on this thread and getting official responses to either agree or dismiss them.
Depending on the responses or if they refuse he does as I suggested in reply 6 and contacts his National transport body/Ministry of Transport stating that there is a possible safety recall and ask for their advice
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I think Pip's point number 3 is the one that Thumper took exception to (and didn't like) but it appears to be normal for ESP equipped cars...
In the case of the stalling issue our member has, could it be as simple as the idle speed being set a bit low?