Post by: donc on September 05, 2008, 14:46:53
In my case, I chose a petrol i30 over diesel for reasons totally unrelated to anything above. I purchased the car for my wife, and where we live, service stations are fairly few and far between; in most directions you travel more than 100 km or more to find the next servo.
When you do find a servo, it's self serve, the diesel bowser is usually seperate from the rest of the bowsers because it's designed to be accessible to large road trucks and plant. It often will not have overhead cover (when its raining), and the diesel pump will usually be of the high-volume type designed to fill large trucks quickly... meaning with the high detergent content of diesel fuels and propensity for foaming, 'splash-back' is very common when filling small cars leaving the bowser nozzel greasy and smelly and likely to splash the person holding the nozzle with diesel fuel. Plus diesel is very expensive.
My wife is a beautiful lady and to me, far more important than any suggested peformance or fuel economy pro's or cons. I'm not going to make her put up with smelly, dirty and often wet diesel bowsers.. plus... 95% of our driving is spent in a speed range of 95 to 105 kph. Drive 2 minutes in any direction and the speed limit is 100 kph for hundreds of kilometres. Over the past 2 days I have driven 750 km at an average speed of 93.6 kph (according to the GPS). Fuel economy was 7.1 litres per 100 km with 2 people in the car + luggage on twisting country roads. I know for a fact that a diesel i30 won't do much better than that, and it would cost even more for fuel.
These are the reasons I chose an i30 that runs on ULP - different strokes for different folks
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 05, 2008, 15:06:11
Post by: Lakes on September 05, 2008, 22:43:11
So whats happened to our Bush? Looks like Paul Hogan got it renamed The Outback then moved in self service to even the small Bush servo's :mrgreen:
don it is simple realy why i chose diesel over petrol. if i was buying a petrol car it would not be a i30 mate. i was looking for a diesel as i like Torue and i like it low down, thats why i have a V8 ute.
also when i drive in same conditions you are talking about at the speed you are talking about i would expect to average 4L/100K with my i30 CRDi easy.
when i drive down the coast to visit my friends down past Narooma NSW, the roads are twistly hilly and very few overtaking lanes so if you drive a 4 cylinder petrol down there and drive like i do you won't get anywhere nere 7L/100K mate more like 10L/100K i got 4.9L/100k driving how i drive down there, my Ute uses the three valve 330cubic inch 5.4L V8 that makes 500nm Torue @ 3,200rev and 80% Torque @ 1,500 rev i have it set up to handle as its low it gets me down there quick enough and overtakes quick and safe i get 11L/100k driving that i was not as quick in the diesel but quick enough, i used to have a few 4 cylinder petrols and used to do that trip and they used a lot of fuel and i was always changing gear trying to get some Torue to overtake but with the diesel it just pulls 5th gear never need to shift back to overtake, Torque is what thrusts you forward mate not horsepower.
also the CRDi even the SX all come with those latex gloves genuine Hyundai, the Vortex premium diesel is low foam they use something else to keep things clean, i have not had it spit out the tank yet and have 12,000k, even in sydney i drive 1,000k before i refill in the country i have driven 1,200k before refilling, now it has 12,000k up it seems to be getting even better economy.
as i have said i drive a Toyota company car and its 4 cylinder petrol and i have to fill it up every two days i hate it! only seems to go about 400k to a tank same size tank as the i30 or could be larger?
i also drive a diesel truck once in a while and it never needs filling up very often gets better mileage in Sydney than the toyota petrol.
in other words i like to drive and i don't like stopping too often for fuel and i don't like changing gears all the time, go for a test drive in a i30 CRDi 5 speed m8.
and you can fill the tank for your wife once in a while :mrgreen:
Post by: donc on September 06, 2008, 00:19:06
Lucifer also mentions Latex gloves as a solution. LOL - I can think of several reasons why I might ask my better half to wear Latex :-) - after all it is her car.
Cheers -
Post by: TheBunyip on September 06, 2008, 06:05:36
You need to talk to Shambles.
Quote
Fuel economy was 7.1 litres per 100 km ..... I know for a fact that a diesel i30 won't do much better than that,Oh yes it will. :D Unless you think 40- 50% less fuel consumption is no improvement. If you are comparing an i30 petrol or diesel with the thirst of the monsters you see all day then the saving may not seem much. Would the price premium you have to pay for diesel wipe out the 40-50% savings in your 750Km trips?
Now as for the cleanliness of the Servo pumps that is an interesting point. My hands peel badly after contact with Diesel so I have always carried disposable gloves for use when refueling. No thinking required just something I do automatically. My wife now uses my gloves too as she finds the pumps at the under cover servos we use often "greasy" so someone is overfilling to some extent. The last time I had to "go round the side" to use an Open Air Diesel pump was off the beaten track in France where, AFAIK Diesel cars make up more than 60% of cars on the road. I suspect that France like the UK will experience far more rainy days in a year than you will see in most parts of inland Australia. Still I would not want to stand in the rain to refill too often.
Are you telling us that your servos use a larger diameter delivery nozzle than the standard design. Your description of a "High Volume type" is a surprise even if it would make good sense when filling heavy kit. I have only met one (slightly larger than petrol) size in the several countries that I have driven in, Australia, Europe and the Middle East, and have yet to meet one that seems to deliver fuel at the 'hard to control' high rate that you imply. I have only ever experienced "Splash-back" when attempting to fill to the brim and that is easily avoided. So I guess it is all about perceptions.
For me the smell of Petrol rather than Diesel is a turn off. I suspect that my attitude may have something to do with never having been doused in Diesel and getting soaked in petrol from a faulty fuel line the day after reading extensively about the carcinogenic properties of petrol. Back to perceptions again. :D [/color]
Post by: donc on September 06, 2008, 08:10:37
Quote
When you can get the chance to take an i30 CRDi for a decent test drive I think you and your good lady will be in for a delightful surprise.Hi Bunyip - I road tested both diesel and ULP models before we made the purchase. The diesel is definately a nice car to drive and surprisingly smooth in the lower ranges - (I never said it wasn't a nice car!), but for us these variances in peformance weren't worth the extra $5,000 purchase price - even if peformance had been one of our prime considerations, which it wasn't (both engines peform exceptionally well).
As to high-volume diesel pumps... If you have travelled Australia (in a diesel vehicle of course) I'm surprised you have never seen one of these as the bowsers of most rural truck stops pump at a higher rate than domestic ULP counterparts (hardly surprising when most of the vehicles they fill consume fuel at rates around 45+ litres per 100k). If you are out our way again give me a shout - more than happy to show you around the place!
The fuel economy of a diesel i30 is remarkably good - no doubt at all - although if taking the argument that diesels are 'better' purely for reasons of saving money, then you sorta need to ensure the math is at least as good as the cars we are talking about :-) - there is no way an i30 diesel would really achieve a "40-50% savings". You might achieve 5 litres per 100 k, so lets be fair and say a 25-30% reduction in fuel consumption could be achieved in a diesl i30.
2 - Cost of fuel
I used 53 litres of ULP for the above trip - it's resonable to assume a diesel i30 would use 37.5 litres of distilate.
ULP is currently $1.58 per litre - trip fuel cost $83.74
Diesel is currently $1.74 per litre - trip fuel cost = $65.25
Conclusion - The difference in the cost of fuel for the above trip would be $18.49 in favour of the diesel (or approx a 23% reduction)
3 - Cost of the car
I paid $20,400 for a new SLX - the best price I could get for a new SLX CRDi was $25,500 (25% dearer)- difference in cost = $5,100.00 (assumes cash sale and no finance or other incumbance - obviously the price difference is greater when vehicles are encumbered due to compound interest on capital value).
4 - Reconcilliation
Under our normal driving circumstances a diesel i30 saves fuel costs at the rate of $18.49 per 750 kilometres. The diesel costs $5,100 more to purchase. Cost equilibrium (fuel savings = increased purchase price) would be achieved when we have driven 206,868 km ($5,100 / $18.49 x 750 km)
Considering it's unlikely we will still own the car after 200,000 km there are no cost advantages for us in owning a diesel - in fact for us a diesel would be considerably more expensive to run and highly unlikely to hold a resale value of $5K greater than a petrol model after 200,000 km (sorry to pop that bubble).
But.... the diesel is still a fantastic car!
Post by: ouri30 on September 06, 2008, 08:23:41
I have never - I repeat NEVER had anywhere near 7.1LPH with ouri30 diesel. I consistently get sub 5.0 LPH and even as low as 4.3 LPH. On 2 trips this year of just under 4000km each we got 4.9 LPH and 5.0 LPH Now that is around 28% less than 7.1LPH. At the moment I pay 1.68 a litre for diesel and 1.49 a litre for unleaded. Now that is around 12% less for the petrol than diesel.
To top that off, I only have to fill up once every 1000+km.
Hey, and the price difference between the diesel and the petrol i30 is not $5000. It's more like half that. Oh and those high volume nozzles (pumps) are an Australian standard to prevent users from filling there petrol tanks with diesel. They won't fit in the petrol filler pipe. It has nothing to do with volume delivery, unless you happen to drive around the back and access the truck bowsers.
For the life of me I can't see why this thread exists. Unless of course it has something to do with some people trying to justify their purchase or perhaps say otheres have made a dumb one.
Bob
Post by: davet on September 06, 2008, 08:44:40
Quote from: "ouri30"
the price difference between the diesel and the petrol i30 is not $5000. It's more like half that.
List price maybe, but what donc is saying is that in the real world he was able to get a much bigger discount on a petrol slx than a diesel, due no doubt to the relative availability/popularity of diesel and petrol models.
Post by: eye30 on September 06, 2008, 09:49:53
Fuel economy was 7.1 litres per 100 km ..... I know for a fact that a diesel i30 won't do much better than that,
Check out these threads and you'll find several have had very good fuel consumption.
Diesel:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31&start=0 (https://i30ownersclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31&start=0)
Petrol:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=317 (https://i30ownersclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=317)
Post by: donc on September 06, 2008, 10:20:10
Also, Eye30 the price difference between fuels you cite in SA is comparable to my experience in NSW even though both fuel types seem cheaper in your neck of the woods - the ratio of difference in your figures would not change the final reconcilliation by any significant amount.
Davet has it spot-on about purchase price differences... I'm talking real-world, not dealer list prices. If anyone here has bought a new unencumbered CRDi for $21K or less then please let me know where you got it from - I had no luck at all getting any real discount offerings on a CRDi
Bob (who asks: "For the life of me I can't see why this thread exists") - the answer is very simple - it exists to help build community, for the value of discussion and for people to voice an opinion; same as any other discussion forum thread anywhere on the 'net!! - and like any other thread, if you don't like it, don't post to it
Post by: ouri30 on September 06, 2008, 11:41:28
Quote
and like any other thread, if you don't like it, don't post to it
I won't. Oops, just did.
Bye
Bob
Post by: buddyforu on September 06, 2008, 12:14:12
Post by: donc on September 06, 2008, 12:15:23
Quote
I won't. Oops, just did.LOL - Some people can't help themselves... but even if you can't acknowledge the value of debate, hopefully after re-reading my earlier post you did realize we agree on the issue of economy. It's just the way some people here claim the diesel i30 must always save money that I take issue with. If you take the math seriously; if you include all the major cost variables; I'm sorry but the numbers don't really support any cost advantages from diesel over ULP unless you drive huge km's (more than 200,000 over your term of ownership). Sure prices may change in the future (up or down) but none of us can predict that with accuracy.
I also realise some people might not like having paradigms challenged this way - but hey, it's just a chat forum. Nothing personal and all in good fun.
Bottom line, the i30 is a good little car - petrol or diesel.
Post by: eye30 on September 06, 2008, 12:40:11
[difference in cost between petrol and diesel model OTR price, cost of the 2 fuels doing 7k miles pa based on manufacturers mile per gallon x 0.8 (just my factor from experience and talking to work collegues on their MPG) to give realistic driving miles for the year]
I don't have the figures now but I vaguely remembered the pay back on diesel model was just 9 months after petrol model.
BUT, and this is a BUT, in UK and the world in general, fuel cost rose very sharply just after I bought and rather than diesel being 1p or 2p less per litre than unleaded petrol in Sept 2007, today at my local Shell, Unleaded is £1.099 and diesel is £1.239. So the pendelum has swung towards unleaded in a big way.
So (I'll put this in a new thread) if oil has reduced by 24% why hasn't the pump price reduced.
For diesel its gon UP!
They say it takes 4 to 6 weeks to filter thro' to the pumps but they put it up almost immediately!!!
Today if I was buying I might consider petrol model if I cared to work out the breakeven point
Post by: Hemmi on September 06, 2008, 13:54:33
Post by: blawler on September 06, 2008, 14:00:41
1. I calculated i would need to travel 93750 KM to recoup the difference in cost.
3. The exact amount of money I had was what i was charged for my SLX> ANd I really wanted the SLX
2. (And this is the most important one) I didnt have to wait months for it. Got it in 4 days :-D
Post by: Lakes on September 06, 2008, 14:15:26
i was in SA a few months back the price of fuel was around the same as here m8 i'm in NSW i payed $1.62.9 for diesel same servo had unlead @ $1.49.9 but the price of fuel in sydney is all over the place. i use 98 ultimate in the Ute as it keeps my motor clean inside. if you buy a euro car there is not much difference in cost of fuel diesel to petrol as they don't have the 91 octaine crap lowest they use is 95. our m8 here Dave tried different fuels in his i30 SR and found he got the best economy with 98 octaine. in the end as long as you are happy. i'm happy with what i have .
Cheers
Post by: donc on September 07, 2008, 00:13:08
I have never owned an automatic car (hate driving them) but suspect the economy of this Toyota probably relates to transmission, tuning and city driving as much as anything. We also own a Nissan X-Trail and a Mazda - The Nissan averages 9.2 x 100k and the Mazda around 7.8 x 100k (slightly more than the i30). The last time I was getting anything like 14 x 100k was when we owned a GXL Landcruiser. It was a diesel, but it was also a tank
Post by: donc on September 07, 2008, 01:16:28
Quote
Oh and those high volume nozzles (pumps) are an Australian standard to prevent users from filling there petrol tanks with diesel. They won't fit in the petrol filler pipe. It has nothing to do with volume delivery, unless you happen to drive around the back and access the truck bowsers.Just caught this and thought it's also worth comment - Service Stations obviously form a large part of any decision re types of fuel used in our vehicles.
The above assumes service stations have multiple diesel bowsers; some on the drive-through and others 'out the back' for large transport rigs. Unfortunately in many parts of Australia that's just not the way it is - The writer is correct about the size of diesel bowser nozzles being to prevent distilate in vehicles not designed for it; however the volume of the pump is unrelated to this - Most of our servo's only have one diesel bowser - the high volume pump 'out the back' for trucks. This is the only diesel bowser they have.
Whether or not an increase in diesel cars will see service stations install additional diesel bowsers on their drive-through is also interesting to consider because there is a third major fuel in the market that hasn't been mentioned here yet - LPG.
In two weeks my X-Trail gets converted to LPG. The price of fuel drops from around $1.60 a litre to $0.65c a litre, I receive a $2,000 Government rebate (installation is $2,500 meaning it only cost me $500 for the conversion), my car becomes duel-fueled, LPG is Govt excise free, burns a lot cleaner and emits far fewer carbon emissions than either diesel or ULP. Even factoring the 20% increase in consumption from LPG, my fuel costs willd drop by more than half. I fully intend to get the i30 converted to LPG in the not-too-distant future (as soon as conversion mount kits become available for the i30). Diesel owners can also get the benefits of LPG if they choose.
The reality is... There are a lot more LPG cars around here than diesel, and considering servo's also get a Govt rebate for installing LPG bowsers on their drive-throughs, it's unlikely we will see additional diesel bowsers installed any time soon. All the investment is going into LPG.
Post by: G14Classified101 on September 07, 2008, 07:17:41
Quote from: "buddyforu"
I bought my SR because it looks great, is comfortable, has all the features I want and has a powerful and smooth engine. And that's it.
What he ^^ said.... And plus im 20years old... Why drive a turbo diesel when i can drive a SR with nice power, leather, mags and half a body kit... But hey if the SR came in 2.0 CRD then maybe i would have considered it...
Post by: Lakes on September 07, 2008, 07:41:48
Quote from: "donc"
QuoteI won't. Oops, just did.LOL - Some people can't help themselves... but even if you can't acknowledge the value of debate, hopefully after re-reading my earlier post you did realize we agree on the issue of economy. It's just the way some people here claim the diesel i30 must always save money that I take issue with. If you take the math seriously; if you include all the major cost variables; I'm sorry but the numbers don't really support any cost advantages from diesel over ULP unless you drive huge km's (more than 200,000 over your term of ownership). Sure prices may change in the future (up or down) but none of us can predict that with accuracy.
I also realise some people might not like having paradigms challenged this way - but hey, it's just a chat forum. Nothing personal and all in good fun.
Bottom line, the i30 is a good little car - petrol or diesel.
don i'm not too worried about saving money, as i don't need to. i just like or i just seem to be doing lots of traveling on weekends, and i don't like having to stop for fuel, also i like filling up here in Sydney and not having to refuel till i get home. my V8 04 Ute gets a range of between 750 and 850k and i ran it on 98 octain just i want to keep that ute for good and it's got over 200,000 on it now so just went and ordered a new SX CRDi i30 i think was about last April or May took about 4 weeks to get. i have never had to fill ip sooner than 1,000k yet and furthest was 1,200k on the one tank. i'm happy with it and have no isue's the dealer told me if i did not like it bring it back and no worries about getting my money back.
but can understand what you ment about not wanting your wife driving a diesel. i always warm motor up and i always leave it idle for a minute or so b4 shuting down just to make sure the turbo has some oil on the bearing for when i start up. but know you can't ask the girls to do things like that. might not matter but thats how i like to do it.
Hey don is that servo that still serves you thats 250K from Broken Hill, is that before you get to Wilcania or after Wilcania?
Cheers
Post by: slimbimjim on September 07, 2008, 10:35:50
Without driving one yet, I would prefer the turbo diesel mainly because there a lot of mountains here (Cairns) and I am interested in the torque and fuel economy that goes with it.
If I were to look at it as a cost proposal, it doesn't make sense as diesel is $0.10 more than petrol but the diesel i30 is $2,500 more than a petrol.
I'm also leaning towards the auto as my left knee is starting to hurt as I can't fit my leg under the wheel when changing gear (I'm 6'5" tall!) and it has to lean out to the side all the time.
Post by: donc on September 07, 2008, 10:59:33
Interesting I just saw another poster cite the cost difference between petrol and diesel i30's at $2,500 ... Just be aware this is only a published list price difference. You might want to shop around to see if it really reflects the best you can do in your 'real world' market... CRDi's are currently in very short supply in Aus with long waiting periods (some people saying over 6 months for particular colours and configurations!!!) meaning you really can't negotiate on price at all - On the other hand, it looks like a lot more ULP i30's have been imported recently and dealers seem to have stock of most models and configurations... this gives the buyer a lot more power. My experience was the difference in cost was actually $5,100 (significantly moe than the promoted $2.5k) - shop around! - A ULP i30 XLS is in direct competition with a range of small ULP cars (eg Mazda 3 and Ford Focus), meaning dealers are really willing to talk turkey.
Post by: donc on September 07, 2008, 11:15:34
Quote
don i'm not too worried about saving money, as i don't need toLakes you gotta be a bachelor! - But good on you for saying what it's really all about - Like the SR owners here, we should purchase whatever it is that makes us happy! Me, I like to do the sums - and when buying something for my wife I like to buy that which suits her lifestyle, not mine (or I would have bought an SR too!). It is all about being happy with a purchase, and purchasing that which meets our individual and unique requirements. Just on trips - our average day trip floats between 300 and 1000 k's so sometimes will fill up on the road. This isn't a problem for us.
Quote
Hey don is that servo that still serves you thats 250K from Broken Hill, is that before you get to Wilcania or after Wilcania?
Wilcania huh - ummm, it's not really on my radar (never stopped there. I'm sure most of the Aussie's here know why. I kinda like still being in one piece when I get home
The servo I mentioned is roughly half-way between Cobar and the 'Hill ... I guess that puts it on the Cobar side of Willy... you have me wondering now... will check next time I'm heading that way.
Post by: eye30 on September 07, 2008, 12:32:12
In two weeks my X-Trail gets converted to LPG. The price of fuel drops from around $1.60 a litre to $0.65c a litre[/quote]
You know what will happen once they have enough LPG's on the road.
The price of LPG will start to increase gradually to be on par with petrol/diesel.
Also, don't rule out taxing it.
Post by: donc on September 07, 2008, 13:36:44
Quote
You know what will happen once they have enough LPG's on the road. The price of LPG will start to increase gradually to be on par with petrol/diesel. Also, don't rule out taxing it.Maybe... Not sure how it works in the UK, but here in Aus most of our Taxi's already run on LPG along with a large proportion of Govt vehicles, buses and commercial fleet vehicles. LPG already has a larger market share than diesel in passsenger vehicles, yet it's diesel that's increasing by price every day, not LPG.
Apart from the lower production costs of LPG, another reason is we have Govt guarantees that LPG will not be taxed until 2011, and then only at a rate of 5% to increment annually up until it reaches a prorata based on energy content (a few % less than the tax on diesel and ULP - and last month our current Labor Govt announced it's considering scrapping any proposed tax on LPG under its new carbon compensation deals - LPG has much lower carbon emissions than diesel so they want to provide incentives for people to switch) - Which ever way it goes, the tax on LPG won't reach anywhere near the level of tax on diesel or ULP until at least 2026 - and by then most of the cars we are talking about here will be long dead and buried
Post by: Lakes on September 07, 2008, 20:50:32
Quote from: "donc"
Quotedon i'm not too worried about saving money, as i don't need toLakes you gotta be a bachelor! - But good on you for saying what it's really all about - Like the SR owners here, we should purchase whatever it is that makes us happy! Me, I like to do the sums - and when buying something for my wife I like to buy that which suits her lifestyle, not mine (or I would have bought an SR too!). It is all about being happy with a purchase, and purchasing that which meets our individual and unique requirements. Just on trips - our average day trip floats between 300 and 1000 k's so sometimes will fill up on the road. This isn't a problem for us.QuoteHey don is that servo that still serves you thats 250K from Broken Hill, is that before you get to Wilcania or after Wilcania?
Wilcania huh - ummm, it's not really on my radar (never stopped there. I'm sure most of the Aussie's here know why. I kinda like still being in one piece when I get home :) we had to stop at Wilcania as the harleys could only go about 250k on a tank, we did not have trouble but knew just to fill up and move out. it's like the wild west out there
Post by: donc on September 08, 2008, 01:12:51
PS - Sadly my riding days are long gone - Last time I was doubling my wife at a mates farm we came across a creek crossing. Half-way across the front wheel hit a smooth rock and the bike kicked sideways. Guess who got tossed off the back and landed in the creek? I don't ride bikes anymore
Post by: blawler on September 08, 2008, 02:13:00
Post by: bdennis on September 08, 2008, 06:25:11
I chose the SLX Diesel as I liked the torque of the Turbo Diesel from down low. Was impressed with the overall behaviour of the car (take off etc).
Drove a petrol but was not as impressed and just felt like another 4cyl auto.
Never drove the manual in either as I knew the wife wanted an auto so did not test as I know I would have wanted the manual.
Its a bit like not taking a new Falcon G6E Turbo or a FPV F6 for a spin. If I drove it I know I would have to have one.. If I stay out then I dont know what im missing!.. (Bit like a Aston or something like that..)
I was coming from high power (but factory) Turbo I6 or XR8 V8 so needed something to sooth my power hungry senses, all be it significantly less.
Chose the SLX over the SX due to alloy wheels, interior finish, climate control, look. etc
Post by: donc on September 08, 2008, 06:56:54
Quote from: "blawler"
LPG will rise significantly in price in the next 24 months. Currently it is not subject to the same government taxes as petrol is. This however is due to change shortly, and will more than likely rise by about 65c per litre.What country are you in blawler? - Any significant increase in LPG (especially something as huge as a 65c increase!!!) is at direct odds with what the politico's here are saying .. do you have any references for this claim?
Post by: blawler on September 08, 2008, 13:37:23
Now this article says these increases MAY be scrapped.. But it shows that they have been implemented.
This article mentions 12.5 cpl increase due to a government fuel excise being place on LPG in the coming years. Which explains the reason behind the LPG government rebate.
Also my figure of 65CPL is an alarmist of what it could become. Government gouges petrol users atm moment. Fuel stations only make about 1.2 c per litre. Government excise currently sits at 39%
basically if we pay 1.50 per litre. 39% of that goes to the government. Now say this translates immediately to LPG...
an LPG cost of 65c per litre would rise to 90 cents per litre. Factor in the less econonmy you get from LPG and it starts lookng less attractive...
LPG averaes about 30% higher fuel consumption.
Also once demand goes up (More passenger cars using it) the price could rise. (Profiteering).
I read an article in a 4wd magazine recently regarding the choice between diesel and petrol. Their conclusion that Diesel can no longer be chosen because of its better economy. As the price gap increases so does the cost of running. LPG will be in the same boat as this in the next 10 years.
Their conclusion was that you should buy a diesel car for environmental reasons. This would also relate to LPG. As these two offer significantly less carbon emissions. I also believe in the next few years this will be a wise economical decision. Because my prediction is, whilst the cost of LPG will rise, and the gap between petrol and diesel prices will still be significant. I think that a Carbon tax will be included into the registrations of cars. And therefore the more environmentally friendly cars will be cheaper to register...
Anyway thats kinda very off topic
Sorry for the brain dump
Post by: Lakes on September 08, 2008, 20:41:41
Post by: donc on September 08, 2008, 21:51:27
I think there will be a different outcome (to what you suggest). There won't be any massive increases in the price of LPG, and I'm prepared to invest accordingly - There's a few key elements to this, one of whch is contained in the article you referenced and relates to Govt policy:
"The most likely option is to delay or scrap the planned introduction of excise on LPG as proposed in 2011"
The other relates to Co2 emissions per litre of fuel consumed by each of the three major fuels:
ULP 2.3 kg
Diesel 2.7 kg
LPG 1.6 kg
( source, Australian Govt Dept of the Environment
http://www.environment.gov.au/settlemen ... nment.html (http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/transport/fuelguide/environment.html) )
Obviously Bio fuels will also impact on all of this but not an extent it will impact on LPG excise IMO.
Post by: donc on September 08, 2008, 21:59:23
It's called the Emmdale roadhouse and it's about 85km from Wilcania on the Cobar side - I took the pic below showing the old fella filling my X-Trail just to show there is still a full-service Service Station left in NSW! - Also if you look closely, he has a shifting spanner in his back pocket... he used that to get the pump working when we pulled in. Took him about half-an-hour before it would pump fuel!
Also (and kinda sad) I notice the servo is now for sale at $295,000 ... gee I'm tempted ... would be a nice lifestyle change, and it comes with a liquor license!!
ref: http://www.realestate.com.au/realestate ... /104720483 (http://www.realestate.com.au/realestate/nsw/broken+hill-dubbo/noona/104720483)
PS - And yes, it is also the local Surf Club (gotta love that!)
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/8161/emmdaletu4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Post by: bikejockey on September 08, 2008, 23:33:47
My reasoning:
- Even with the higher diesel pricing I would spend much less on fuel than the current V6 wagon I own, and a bit less than if I bought an equivalent sized petrol vehicle
- CO2 emissions are pretty low even taking into account the higher carbon content of diesel
- The ratio between city and highway fuel consumption appears to be much lower for diesel than for petrol vehicles. This may be common for small passenger vehicles, for the Peugeot 307 touring the ratio difference is quite high, for the i30 less so but still significant.
- The idea of doing around 1000Km before refilling appeals (especially as it's diesel fuel!)
Since then I've been a bit bothered by the fact that the i30 only achieves an 'average' Green Vehicle rating (3.5 stars) so my environmental aspirations are looking a bit tattered. The CRDi meets EuroIV but it looks like no other manufacturer of small diesels does any better at present. Don't know why the petrol model is only 3.5 stars though.
I wasn't concerned about recouping the initial cost. Maybe (if diesel passenger vehicles become popular in Aus) I'll get a better trade-in for the vehicle at next change-over. Maybe none of us will be driving fossil-fuel cars by then (unlikely). I do very few Ks in a year (4000 last year) although my partner does more so I guess she'll have most of the driving pleasure!
4 months down the track (and still no car) what would I buy? Probably nothing at present. There's more change on the horizon than when I started looking at the beginning of the year. I'm interested in both the i20 Getz replacement and the LPG hybrid from Hyundai and other manufacturers will have competitive offerings.
I don't anticipate driving a hydrogen or electric car any time soon though, unless I get a second-hand Getz and convert it myself - now there's a thought...
Post by: ouri30 on September 09, 2008, 10:05:12
Quote
The other relates to Co2 emissions per litre of fuel consumed by each of the three major fuels:
ULP 2.3 kg
Diesel 2.7 kg
LPG 1.6 kg
To get the real comparison there needs to be a conversion to /km. If this is done for the i30, I would guess that the diesel (125g/km) would be ommitting less Co2 per km than the petrol. LPG is not currently available in the i30 as a factory option.
I've been to http://www.environment.gov.au/settlemen (http://www.environment.gov.au/settlemen) ... nment.html and some some calculations.
Now as I do 50 000km per year, a petrol i30 would produce 8280kg Co2 while the diesel i30 produces 6345kg Co2. Looks like I'm being kinder to the environment with the diesel.
Bob
Post by: Lakes on September 09, 2008, 10:52:24
I'm not debateing about emisions but it is common knowledge LPG is the best thats why only electric or LPG fork lifts can opperate indoors.
also the RTA web page don't seem to recomend diesel cars they like Hybrid or thats what it looks like to me when you check there green car guide.
but even useing a horse and cart cause some form of polution.
Post by: donc on September 09, 2008, 12:13:54
Quote from: "ouri30"
No doubt about it Bob.QuoteLooks like I'm being kinder to the environment with the diesel.
Bob
Post by: donc on September 09, 2008, 12:23:15
Quote from: "Lakes"
That's the place don! love to see places like that m8, thats the real thing!Hey Lakes,
I'm not debateing about emisions but it is common knowledge LPG is the best thats why only electric or LPG fork lifts can opperate indoors.
also the RTA web page don't seem to recomend diesel cars they like Hybrid or thats what it looks like to me when you check there green car guide.
but even useing a horse and cart cause some form of polution.
Yep, isn't it awesome to see places like this still around? IMO we have lost way too much of Aus in our cities (and added far too much BS), fortunately the bush still holds a lot of characters and tradition!
Working in the mining sector (vehicle emissions tend to be important in large enclosed underground mines where people can easily be gassed), the matter of particulate polutants from diesel fuels is of vital importance - so much so, all diesels on our sites must have 'scrubbers' fitted to clean the exhaust of particulate matter. Not so with LPG because LPG emits very few particulate polutants.
I guess like everything, there are so many circumstance-specific issues that no one can suggest a 'one solution fits all' - it would be ignorant to try - for some people in some siuations diesel is best, for others ULP, others again LPG. That's just life - we are all different with different needs!
Post by: bumpkin on September 09, 2008, 19:55:21
I bought my brand new 2008 1.6 petrol for the same price as the dealer had an ex-demonstrator 2.0CRD which was approx 8 months old.
I preferred the look of the sport model, which goes along with Hemmi and the various SR owners.
In the UK to recoup the value of a like for like purchase for a low mileage user like myself would take far longer than I will probably own the car and diesel is approx 20p per litre more expensive than petrol.
Having had three Imprezas the savings even on a petrol model for me are huge, I am getting approx an extra 150 miles per tank of petrol so can afford to actually ENJOY driving my car without worrying about the cost.
Brian
Post by: donc on September 10, 2008, 02:46:05
I tend not to think a lot about forums when offline, although filling up this morning reminded me of discussions here when I saw the queue at the diesel bower at my local servo. A picture tells a thousand words… I’m one of two cars pulled up at one of the eight ULP bowsers (under the protective awning) and looking at the (one) diesel bowser (note no cover over the diesel pump). The 4x4 ute and tojo are filling up and you can see a semi trailer behind the ute waiting for the pump. There was another ute waiting behind the semi. Just a normal day.
I know this doesn’t impact much on our city members (plenty of servo’s with dozens of bowsers), but just wanted to show it can be a real issue out here…
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/283/dieselbowserpt8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Post by: bez10y on September 10, 2008, 03:40:46
Donc, I checked out the petrol stations that I pass on the way to work this morning and a fair number of them have the diesel bowser in very odd and out of the way spots. I can imagine that being a big consideration (after reading your reason) even here in Sydney.
Post by: Lakes on September 10, 2008, 07:11:48
I was giving my i30 a bit of a blow out today and love the feel of the little turbo diesel it pull's well shifting at just 2,200 i was doing some flat sifts and she go's ok.
a BP servo near work has three rows of Diesel bowsers all under cover for semi's and B doubles and same amount of ubnlead pumps the other side of the servo that include a few diesel pumps, most diesel pumps here are in with the petrol pumps. so no problems.
Post by: alderny on September 10, 2008, 11:57:22
In the UK petrol currently retails for 111.9p/ltr and diesel for 123.9p/ltr. The diesel version of the i30 retails for exactly £2,000 more (model for model). Using the UK government figures for fuel consumption, the most optimistic you could possibly achieve would be 54.3mpg (5.2 Litre/100 km) for the 1.4 petrol and 68.9mpg (4.1 Litre/100 km) for the 1.6 diesel (these models having a roughly equivalent performance). Putting these figures into an Excel worksheet and using the 'goal seeking' function, someone owning a diesel would need to drive 761,860 miles (1,226,038km) to just break even!
Even if you bias the figures heavily in favour of diesel, then the petrol option still wins. For example, if we assume 40mpg (7.1 litre/100km) for the 1.4 petrol and 70mpg (4.0 litre/100km) for the 1.6 diesel, then the diesel owner would still need to drive an intergalactic 194,647 miles (313,239km) just to break even! Please check my arithmetic though.
Post by: donc on September 10, 2008, 22:12:50
Post by: TheBunyip on September 11, 2008, 01:16:08
Quote from: "donc"
Diesel is the highest pollutant of the three major fuels and (at least in Au and NZ) our Govt's plan to tax it accordingly on an upward sliding scale.
OK donc we have established that on the basis of your experience you have good reasons not like Diesel. Whilst we could get into an unproductive flaming war on whether Diesel or Petrol is the worst polluting liquid fuel I do not think we would gain anything from the effort. Neither of us is likely to change our minds in spite of the fact that we both like to see ourselves as open minded. We would, I hope, also agree that LPG as a sole fuel for spark ignition or as a blend with diesel has many advantages on the emissions front.
However can I invite you to share what you know about the plans of the Govt's of Australia and New Zealand that suggests they wish to penalise the use of Diesel. I find that a little strange with the commencement of the South Australian project to build a Coal to Liquid project. The state Gov't in Western Australia has been trying for years to encourage the building of a Gas to Liquid (Diesel) plant. The Gov't in the Northern Territory has made positive noises supporting proposals for smaller scale GTL plants there too. I know of no objection from the Federal Gov't to these ideas.
As for New Zealand well I have little (say zero) knowledge of their politics. (Sorry to any Kiwis reading this.) I would find it a bit odd for NZ politicians to be hostile to diesel when they have funded the projects to use algae grown on Sewage Farms as part of the water treatment process to provide a feedstock for Biodiesel, The NZ politicians were happy to be photographed when the first of the Biodiesel fueled vehicles hit the road.
I assume you are not referring to the Australian Governments proposals for "Carbon Trading". I could be wrong. When first published, the local media made much of the suggestion for protecting motorists by reducing the excise tax on petrol to negate the impact of what will be a carbon tax if not in name. I downloaded and read the proposals. Petrol is not singled out for special treatment. The "fuel" used by motorists is to benefit under the transitional scheme until all carbon emitting fuels are taxed in some as yet to be determined way. Have I missed something? Has some Australian politician said publicly that only Petrol will benefit?
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 11, 2008, 01:33:45
Quote from: "alderny"
Petrol versus Diesel - my (British) point of view. The arithmetic says it all - petrol wins hands down, and here's why:
In the UK petrol currently retails for 111.9p/ltr and diesel for 123.9p/ltr. The diesel version of the i30 retails for exactly £2,000 more (model for model). Using the UK government figures for fuel consumption, the most optimistic you could possibly achieve would be 54.3mpg (5.2 Litre/100 km) for the 1.4 petrol and 68.9mpg (4.1 Litre/100 km) for the 1.6 diesel (these models having a roughly equivalent performance). Putting these figures into an Excel worksheet and using the 'goal seeking' function, someone owning a diesel would need to drive 761,860 miles (1,226,038km) to just break even!
Even if you bias the figures heavily in favour of diesel, then the petrol option still wins. For example, if we assume 40mpg (7.1 litre/100km) for the 1.4 petrol and 70mpg (4.0 litre/100km) for the 1.6 diesel, then the diesel owner would still need to drive an intergalactic 194,647 miles (313,239km) just to break even! Please check my arithmetic though.
Hi Alderny,
I wish they had the a smaller petrol in Australia, the smallest petrol we can get is 2 litres, which does 7.2 l/100km, so it only takes about 100,000 kms to break even.
Although the 1.6 diesel should have massively more power than a 1.4 petrol.
A 1.6 petrol would be ideal.
Post by: donc on September 11, 2008, 05:20:26
I’m really enjoying the lack of flames on this forum, and likewise hope maturity prevails and we don’t see anyone start to flame other members (did I say I think the little diesel i30 is a fantastic car?). Most of the commentary here is generic, although you are (sadly) correct to suggest that sometimes good people can take commentary like this as a personal affront and will attack (flame) just to prove a point. Let’s not let that happen!
Your sig seems to place you in the UK and Aus – Which are you in now? Maybe your not seeing what I’m being hammered with on the TV every night
The comments I’m writing largely reflect the current media bombardment (in Aus) over fuels and a range of Govt greenhouse initiatives. I will dump some links at the end of this post (just a small no of the many available), but really a simple Google search should get you into the mind of our current political climate on this topic.I really hope diesel fuels do not become proportionately more expensive than ULP or LPG because IMO this would be bad for everyone... However if recent commentary is a guide; if consideration is given to the tiny percentage of distillate used by small diesel cars when compared to the massive amounts used by road transport and industry (noted amongst the highest polluters), I suspect the pundits are right – distillate will become proportionately ever more expensive because our Govts will tax it that way - at least that's what they are saying they intend to do.
Cheers -
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,2384941 ... 46,00.html (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,,23849411-5007146,00.html)
the decision to reintroduce the CPI increase on the diesel excise levy, which will result in increased (and inflationary) costs to transport, increased costs to mining (and reduced productivity and hence the tax take) and increased (and inflationary) costs to agriculture, threatening farmers' livelihoods.
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=263 (http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=263)
Rudd's diesel tax increase shows he's not serious about keeping downward pressure on fuel prices
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008 ... 245045.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/14/2245045.htm)
The Senate has blocked the Federal Government's plans to increase the diesel fuel excise on 350,000 heavy vehicles.
http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=252 (http://www.liberal.org.au/news.php?Id=252)
Assistant Treasurer and Minister for Consumer Affairs, Chris Bowen, has been caught asleep at the wheel after he told a press conference he was unaware of the Government's plan to increase diesel taxes on the transport industry.
New Zealand
"Diesel Tax to replace Road User Charges?"
http://www.speirsfinance.co.nz/includes ... x?ID=28173 (http://www.speirsfinance.co.nz/includes/download.aspx?ID=28173)
"Diesel Tax to replace Road User Charges?"
The recent Road Transport Forum New Zealand conference held in Christchurch called on the Government to review the RUC system and consider a single fuel tax charging regime for diesel vehicles in the light of the Government introducing a recently announced regional fuel tax.
Post by: alderny on September 11, 2008, 08:09:50
Quote from: "kinesiologykid"
Hi Kinesiologykid! There must be some logic to Hyundai's marketing, but here in the UK we can't get the 2.0 litre petrol version. We have a choice of 1.4 or 1.6 petrol, or 1.6 or 2.0 diesel. The only difference between the 1.4 and 1.6 petrol engines being a 10.45mm increase in stroke.Quote from: "alderny"...I wish they had the smaller petrol in Australia, the smallest petrol we can get is 2 litres, which does 7.2 l/100km, so it only takes about 100,000 kms to break even.
Although the 1.6 diesel should have massively more power than a 1.4 petrol.
A 1.6 petrol would be ideal.
Regarding performance, then the 1.4 petrol is about the same as the 1.6 diesel, although the latter has more low down grunt. However, the diesel car weighs a lot more (102kgs) so returns a similar performance - here are the manufacturer's figures:
1.4 petrol: 0-62mph in Seconds = 11.7, max speed = 187 kph.
1.6 diesel: 0-62mph in Seconds = 11.6, max speed = 188 kph.
The 1.6 petrol is marginally better than either of these, but the magazine reviewers (if they are to be believed) claim that the 1.4 version is smoother revving.
Hope this helps.
Post by: Lakes on September 11, 2008, 09:06:45
also was that manuel or Auto? as i would think 0 to 60mph the auto would beat the manuel.on average.
like say you get ten different drivers 10 in auto's 10 in manul the auto's would get more consistent results only the reaction time of each driver would vary. with manul would be a big difference between drivers. as shifting gear can take some people a lot longer than others not to mention missed shifts when they try to do it as quick as possible. also do you relise just how much difference in distance one tenth of a second is to 60mph. there can be a big difference specialy as they are still excellerating.
it's very easy to sit back and compare what journalists give you as performance figures. but do you really know what they mean?
i'm only talking from years of racing and Drag Racing, thats how i can tell you what a tenth of a second means m8. i'm not trying to be smart or nasty, i'm just trying to state facts , so people are not misled.
cheers m8
Post by: TheBunyip on September 11, 2008, 11:00:31
Hear, Hear. The majority of i30 lovers are a pretty civilised bunch. Most go out of their way to avoid flame wars here. After all anyone who can avoid following the herd and buy a quality car from a once derided manufacturer is capable of independent thought. Long may it continue.
TheBunyip is currently spending a few months at home downunder. I find American, no sorry, that should be Australian TV pretty dire. :oops: I long ago ceased to expect politicians and their advisers to be any good at identifying the consequences of their half baked money raising schemes as those poor Kiwis also know to their cost. (Just ask a Brit about the recent "10p tax" wheeze.)
Having seen far too many summers I am totally cheesed off with the politicians in the whole of the Western World. There must be some good ones but the activity of the majority hides whatever little rays of shining light that there may be that would get me excited. I happen to believe that politics is extremely important but I just do not think any politician should serve more than two continuous terms without prior and post politics real world experience. If politics were seen as a short term contribution and not a career I think it would work better.
There it is. Now you know that I am a bit of a Ratbag with ideas that would be pretty unpopular. It is probably a good thing that I do not expect to ever get a chance to see my idea put to the test. Whatever you do... Do not get me started on British politicians as I can loose all pretense of sanity pretty quick. I am beginning to wonder if there is some secret rule that says that candidates for political office must be incompetent. It seems to apply here in Australia as well as in dear old Blighty. :shock: That last sentence is a real compliment for both Australia and the UK never the less.
Just to illustrate a point. Why have I not heard any politician screaming that the Diesel Transport industry should clean itself up by a mass adoption of the 20% LPG blending/injecting technology that has been pioneered here in Australia? http://www.d-gas.com.au/ Major emission Improvements and improved fuel economies for a tiny investment for anyone clocking up Australian transport kilometers.The Gov't Grants are but a sop. Instillation should be mandatory IMO. Then go on to retro-fit some of the decent exhaust filtration that other countries have been demanding. OK, exhaust filtration is not yet a mature technology but it does work well enough.
Volkswagen now has (50 state) approval to sell the Jetta TDI in the USA with their more stringent emission requirements than are currently demanded in the Euro zone. For me that is proof that Clean Diesel is not a myth while I reckon that we will still see further improvements.
You know this is an extremely long winded way of saying that Diesel, especially the heavy transport kind, can be pretty polluting but with the possible improvements to existing technology it does not have to be that way. In a year or so new Heavy Diesel transport should be able to quickly catch up with the standards now being set with Diesel cars.
To (almost) quote the Duke of Edinburgh. To fix it, all they have to do is "Pull their finger out"
I say... A bit of a rant now and again does wonders for ones sanity if not the Blood Pressure does it not.
Rant Ends
Post by: donc on September 11, 2008, 11:59:03
Quote
I say... A bit of a rant now and again does wonders for ones sanity if not the Blood Pressure does it notIt does wonders old boy, simply wonders
PS - Somewhow I don't think we are that many generations apart
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 12, 2008, 23:14:47
BUT if I went back to live in England (Warrington) I would buy a 1.6 Petrol Estate.
In Australia they don't have the estate and they don't have the 1.6 Petrol.
I checked the UK website, it gets 6.2 l/100km, with the seats up has 75 lites more space, and with seats down has 145 litres more space.
Its 43 kgs heavier.
Pity it rains so much in Warrington, and so much traffic!
Tasmania has great weather and much less traffic.
Oh and before anyone asks - Manchester United!
I saw them beat Benfica in the European Cup Final (most of you were not even born then).
Post by: Dazzler on September 13, 2008, 03:28:30
I was 12 in 1968 how old were you (using kid in your moniker is obviously poetic license!)
Post by: donc on September 13, 2008, 07:05:51
Post by: TheBunyip on September 13, 2008, 09:14:20
Quote
My car is an SX 1.6 Diesel. BUT if I went back to live in England (Warrington) I would buy a 1.6 Petrol Estate.Australian motor companies seem to always offer bigger engines than are needed in the same car in other markets. Australian roads may not be up to the same standard as other countries enjoy but they are not that bad from a driving point of view. From a safety point of view :D
On paper at least the performance differences are trivial. About the only certainty I have is that Australians see slightly lower fuel efficiency for no obvious gain.
As someone who drives in city traffic and longer all day hauls at max (legal) speeds on the flat and mountains in Australia and Europe this is one ignorant old fool who cannot see the need for these engine size differences from personal experience "behind the wheel". Unless of course it has something to do with the fact that I think Australian fuels have traditionally been formulated to a slightly lower standard. (Diesel Cetaine ratings are lower in Oz)
Perhaps someone will be able to enlighten kinesiologykid and I. You might even be able to convince us that it has nothing to do with marketing and selling at a higher price.
[/color]
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 13, 2008, 09:36:27
I think its the public, not the carmaker that is to blame. Also Europe has had much dearer fuel for a long time now. Australians are used to driving big gas guzzlers and downsizing for many means a 2.0 litre car. The US is even worse, I have checked some of their forums, their egos would have them spend half their wages on fuel rather than give up their Hummers!
I remember when Toyota Corollas were 1.6, and Mitsubishi Lancers were way under 2.0 litre. Now the cars slowly get bigger with each new model.
Even though I read many reviews I missed the one that said the i30 wagon may be coming to Oz in 2009. I would have waited. But don't expect a 1.6 petrol.
I think a 1.6 petrol would sell like hot cakes - 6.2 l/100km in a car the size of an i30 wagon!
And apparently the smaller engines are much cheaper!
Okay everyone, phone your dealer and ask if they are bringing out the i30 1.6 petrol wagon!
Lets create it.
Post by: TheBunyip on September 13, 2008, 11:54:45
Quote
I think its the public, not the carmaker that is to blame.I have been away from Oz for too long. I have long wondered if the Yanks have thought that the minimum weight for a baby car is two tons. :cry:
Take a Look at the Hyundai sales figures for the USA in August here. http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2008/09/09/hyundai-car-sales-report-august-2008/#more-406
It looks as if even our American Cousins are beginning to get their heads around the benefits of driving human scale cars and not 'battle tanks'. Unfortunately by only dropping back to the delightful Sonata they still have some way to go. As there are not yet enough i30s built to let them in on the deal we shall just have to hope they will embrace the i30 Wagon to be called the Elantra Wagon, I think, when it is released in the USA. But then again the Yanks might look for a 3.0l V6. ;)
The only consolation for those who already have one is the continuing good sales of the i30 here.[/color]
Post by: Dazzler on September 13, 2008, 11:58:29
Quote from: "kinesiologykid"
Okay everyone, phone your dealer and ask if they are bringing out the i30 1.6 petrol wagon!
Lets create it.
Or send them a link to this thread
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 13, 2008, 12:21:18
Quote from: "TheBunyip"
Hi kinesiologykidQuoteI think its the public, not the carmaker that is to blame.I have been away from Oz for too long. I have long wondered if the Yanks have thought that the minimum weight for a baby car is two tons. :cry:
Take a Look at the Hyundai sales figures for the USA in August here. http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2008/09/09/hyundai-car-sales-report-august-2008/#more-406
It looks as if even our American Cousins are beginning to get their heads around the benefits of driving human scale cars and not 'battle tanks'. Unfortunately by only dropping back to the delightful Sonata they still have some way to go. As there are not yet enough i30s built to let them in on the deal we shall just have to hope they will embrace the i30 Wagon to be called the Elantra Wagon, I think, when it is released in the USA. But then again the Yanks might look for a 3.0l V6. ;)
The only consolation for those who already have one is the continuing good sales of the i30 here.[/color]
Interesting link, Bunyip,
So the US is slowly heading in the right direction.
The only thing that will really change people is sudden increased prices, otherwise its like the lobster getting slowly boiled, doesn't notice until its too late!
Yes, Governments have the power to make massive changes.
If only they had the balls!
Nobody needs a bigger car than i30/Focus/Corolla/Mazda 3/Honda Civic etc, (unless they have big loads to carry) and if the government set the standard for government cars at 4l/100km (diesel) or 6l/100km petrol, then the carmakers will make them!
If they need lengthy journeys on unsealed roads, then Subaru Foresters can be coverted to LPG.
Government cars mainly used in the city should be LPG Hybrid or totally electric (only a few years away).
This is a great site for future models, has some very green cars, including future LPG hybrid Elantra:
http://www.editorial.discountnewcars.co ... enDocument (http://www.editorial.discountnewcars.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/sequence/future?OpenDocument)
Post by: EymaTeapot on September 13, 2008, 13:15:49
Nobody needs a bigger car than i30/Focus/Corolla/Mazda 3/Honda Civic etc, (unless they have big loads to carry) and if the government set the standard for government cars at 4l/100km (diesel) or 6l/100km petrol, then the carmakers will make them!
What if you have 5 kids?
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 13, 2008, 13:19:31
Quote from: "EymaTeapot"
[
Nobody needs a bigger car than i30/Focus/Corolla/Mazda 3/Honda Civic etc, (unless they have big loads to carry) and if the government set the standard for government cars at 4l/100km (diesel) or 6l/100km petrol, then the carmakers will make them!
What if you have 5 kids?
Okay Eyma Teapot, you got me!
But I guess it wouldn't be a high % of governement employees with five kids?
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 04:53:15
If we had trains and buses available in rural districts we could also do without expensive cars... but we don't so it's not much use dreaming
Another consideration is maybe to acknowledge how the real environmental cost of running a car doesn't begin and end at the bowser. A lot more raw materials are used to build a car that to run it for 100,000 km, and with anecdotal evidence supporting that cars last longer if the engine isn't so small as to be working overtime, it can actually work out cheaper from an environmental perspective if the power to weight ratio supports vehicle longevity.
How many K's would you expect to get out of a 1.6 litre petrol? - I'll be very disapointed if the 2.0 ltr doesn't better 350,000 km over the life of the engine.
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 14, 2008, 05:57:25
Quote from: "donc"
Different persepectives always give rise to interesting discussion! - From my perspective; I really can't understand why anyone needs a car at all if they live in one of our large city's with public transport so cheaply available. I wonder why city folk don't just hire a car for weekend trips (actually I know a lot do use public transport and hire cars when required, but seemingly a lot more seem to feel they need both a cheap public transport system and a private car at their personal disposal 24x7 - This is a huge waste of energy).
If we had trains and buses available in rural districts we could also do without expensive cars... but we don't so it's not much use dreaming
Another consideration is maybe to acknowledge how the real environmental cost of running a car doesn't begin and end at the bowser. A lot more raw materials are used to build a car that to run it for 100,000 km, and with anecdotal evidence supporting that cars last longer if the engine isn't so small as to be working overtime, it can actually work out cheaper from an environmental perspective if the power to weight ratio supports vehicle longevity.
How many K's would you expect to get out of a 1.6 litre petrol? - I'll be very disapointed if the 2.0 ltr doesn't better 350,000 km over the life of the engine.
Hi Donc,
If I didn't need to travel for work (about 230kms once a week, to a place with virtually no public transport, and not knowing my finish times) I maybe could do without a car.
Launceston is such a small city, I can walk to almost anywhere in 15-20 minutes.
I think if you get 250,000 out of a 2.0 litre petrol you are doing okay.
I would expect the 2.0 litre to maybe get 50,000 more than a 1.6 petrol.
And the 1.6 diesel to get 350,000.
Just guesses, based on what I have read.
The average car probably 'dies' of old age before 250,000.
Be good to have a government funded website that factored everything in, including the freight from Korea, and where the steel comes from to build it - total environment cost. It is so difficult for the average person to work out.
It could have a graph that showed which model was best based on average km per year, and whether country or city driving.
So it could be sorted by:
Safest small car
Most economical city car
Safest city car
Most economical highway car
Safest highway car
Most economical country roads car
Safest country roads car
For instance the Mercedes A-Class tops the small car safety (howsafeisyourcar.com.au)
BUT its not meant to be driven on anything but bitumen.
So it may be safest highway car and city car, but would probably be the least economical country car based on all the (expensive) repairs it would need.
A staggering 37% would not buty another mercedes! http://www.carsurvey.org/ (http://www.carsurvey.org/)
Interestingly on the same site only 10% of Hyundai Getz owners would not buy another Hyundai!!!!!
Unfortunately its too small a sample for the i30 - hint hint.
The Fiat 500 and Punto are great safe city cars, but considerably smaller than the i30 for highway driving.
The i30 beat a Porsche 911 in a rally and also trounced a Toyota Prius in an economy run.
But the Prius is best in the city, as it can use the electric engine.
Most of the members on this site would also have different needs.
Some need a car that can do 200km/hr.
Some need economy.
Some desire safety.
Some live in the city, others the country.
Some like zooming round winding bends.
Isn't it amazing the i30 meets all of our needs!
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 10:00:15
Quote from: "kinesiologykid"
Hi Donc,Hi kinesiologykid - not so long ago I couldn't even walk to the end of my driveway in less than 20 mins
If I didn't need to travel for work (about 230kms once a week, to a place with virtually no public transport, and not knowing my finish times) I maybe could do without a car.
Launceston is such a small city, I can walk to almost anywhere in 15-20 minutes.
- Nowadays we live in town so it's a little easier. Still there are times when I would love to have public transport available. IMO a lot of city folk don't realise how lucky they are to get so much public money spent on their transport needs - at least that's how it seems judging by all the complaining I see in the media when a train is 5 minutes late. Quote
I think if you get 250,000 out of a 2.0 litre petrol you are doing okay. I would expect the 2.0 litre to maybe get 50,000 more than a 1.6 petrol. And the 1.6 diesel to get 350,000. Just guesses, based on what I have read. The average car probably 'dies' of old age before 250,000.Mate, to be honest these are assumptions I have some difficulty with. You're suggesting an approx 30% increase in engine life from a 1.6 ltr diesel over a 2.0 litre petrol engine. I had similar discussion with my dealer when we first discussed the diesel -v- ULP option. Like most car salesman I've met when talking diesels, his immediate sales pitch was to cite the '70's - '80's truism of a diesel being more reliable and longer lasting (he said it so quickly I'm sure he had never really thought about it before)... and I think he was a little suprised when I called him on it. In the end he did end up agreeing with me.
Diesel engines of decades past did last longer on average than petrol engines and were (as a rule) more reliable. This was because most didn't rev over 2,000 rpm, were naturally aspirated and had a bottom-end 3x times the weight of the petrol counterpart. In short, the diesel generated little high-end power, reved very slowly and basically didn't work particularly hard. This is also why the few diesel cars of this era were so unsuccessful and unpopular - they lasted well, peformed terribly.
Enter the turbocharger, higher reving diesels (i30 1.6 Crdi 85kw @ 4000 rpm), light-weight construction to try and 'trim the fat' from a traditionally heavy diesel bottom end and a diesel with peformance figures comparable to a petrol engine... some great benefits, but a counterpart of there isn't even anecdotal evidence (or logic) to suggest the diesel should have any greater life expectancy than the petrol engine. It's more likely to be the reverse considering the lengths taken to reduce the bottom end weight. Time will tell, but I would certainly take any claims of improved longevity with a grain of salt until such time as proper statistics become avaialble.
Quote
The i30 beat a Porsche 911 in a rally and also trounced a Toyota Prius in an economy run.Interesting! - I haven't heard about this - How old was the Porsche? I'm guessing we are talking time trials and all things equal? Would like to hear more...
But the Prius is best in the city, as it can use the electric engine.
Quote
Isn't it amazing the i30 meets all of our needs!Kinda - a great little car - I wouldn't suggest it meets all needs, but it is a good package.
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 14, 2008, 10:33:35
Quote from: "donc"
Quote from: "kinesiologykid"Hi Donc,Hi kinesiologykid - not so long ago I couldn't even walk to the end of my driveway in less than 20 mins
If I didn't need to travel for work (about 230kms once a week, to a place with virtually no public transport, and not knowing my finish times) I maybe could do without a car.
Launceston is such a small city, I can walk to almost anywhere in 15-20 minutes.QuoteI think if you get 250,000 out of a 2.0 litre petrol you are doing okay. I would expect the 2.0 litre to maybe get 50,000 more than a 1.6 petrol. And the 1.6 diesel to get 350,000. Just guesses, based on what I have read. The average car probably 'dies' of old age before 250,000.Mate, to be honest these are assumptions I have some difficulty with. You're suggesting an approx 30% increase in engine life from a 1.6 ltr diesel over a 2.0 litre petrol engine. I had similar discussion with my dealer when we first discussed the diesel -v- ULP option. Like most car salesman I've met when talking diesels, his immediate sales pitch was to cite the '70's - '80's truism of a diesel being more reliable and longer lasting (he said it so quickly I'm sure he had never really thought about it before)... and I think he was a little suprised when I called him on it. In the end he did end up agreeing with me.
Diesel engines of decades past did last longer on average than petrol engines and were (as a rule) more reliable. This was because most didn't rev over 2,000 rpm, were naturally aspirated and had a bottom-end 3x times the weight of the petrol counterpart. In short, the diesel generated little high-end power, reved very slowly and basically didn't work particularly hard. This is also why the few diesel cars of this era were so unsuccessful and unpopular - they lasted well, peformed terribly.
Enter the turbocharger, higher reving diesels (i30 1.6 Crdi 85kw @ 4000 rpm), light-weight construction to try and 'trim the fat' from a traditionally heavy diesel bottom end and a diesel with peformance figures comparable to a petrol engine... some great benefits, but a counterpart of there isn't even anecdotal evidence (or logic) to suggest the diesel should have any greater life expectancy than the petrol engine. It's more likely to be the reverse considering the lengths taken to reduce the bottom end weight. Time will tell, but I would certainly take any claims of improved longevity with a grain of salt until such time as proper statistics become avaialble.QuoteThe i30 beat a Porsche 911 in a rally and also trounced a Toyota Prius in an economy run.Interesting! - I haven't heard about this - How old was the Porsche? I'm guessing we are talking time trials and all things equal? Would like to hear more...
But the Prius is best in the city, as it can use the electric engine.QuoteIsn't it amazing the i30 meets all of our needs!Kinda - a great little car - I wouldn't suggest it meets all needs, but it is a good package.
Hi Donc,
As I said it was a guess, what you say about the newer diesel engines being lighter, therefore not as strong is new to me, so thanks, I am learning so much lately! I guess only time will tell.
I have only done 500km up to now, but find it hard to get to 4000 rev! I will most likely be running mine at less than 2,500 rev, over 90% of the time, so may last a bit longer than some of the members who drive redline!
There is a whole section on the Targa Rally in this site, viewtopic.php?f=7&t=796 (https://i30ownersclub.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=796)
Also on other sites, e.g. http://autodeadline.com.au/?page=ViewRe ... 8090875847 (http://autodeadline.com.au/?page=ViewRelease&id=ARD2008090875847)
I meant meets the needs of the members on this site, even though we go from old codgers just wanting good economy to would be Corolla buyers because they can get ESP, to would be Lancer buyers, because it handles well.
Post by: Lakes on September 14, 2008, 10:45:15
very happy as it was raining heavy on way home and the i30 SX still handled that well also had traffic stop fast in the rain @ 110kph i used the ABS and the tyres griped perfect no skid.
and on saturday night south of Narooma we had a Wallaby come out of the sticks almost hit it, so was lucky.
i'm very happy with my choice as the SX CRDi was cheap and suits me fine.
Cheers
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 11:34:27
Quote from: "kinesiologykid"
There is a whole section on the Targa Rally in this site,Thanks for the link - Fascinating thread and a good read! - Would love to hear/read more on the other vehicles competing in the same class as the i30. I can see Jimmy Richards finished 2nd overal in a 911 behind a hot looking Skyline GTR, and an old '74 model 911 won the vintage class. What model/vintage was the Porsche beaten by the i30?
PS - some old codgers look for more than just economy in a car... some like a car with a bit of spirit as well!
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 14, 2008, 12:29:47
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/ShamblesX/911_24c.jpg)
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 12:40:07
Quote
The average car probably 'dies' of old age before 250,000.Hi kinesiology (I'll drop the 'kid' part, but an interesting handle - practitioner or patient?)
Unfortunately I think you are correct. Another sad reflection on our 'dosposable' society. Cars don;t wear out after 250,000 km, people let them wear out through lack of proper maintenance. This lack of longevity is probably the single most costly environmental aspect of the motor car.
I spent today degreasing the engine and tuning my daughters 1992 model 2.0 ltr DOHC Mazda 626 Hatch (I was going to fit an anti-glare strip to the i30 but time got away from me!). The 626 is a classic, and one of my old work cars that I gave to her while she is learning to drive. The car has 327,000 km on the clock. The paintwork is starting to look a little sad but the car runs fantastically well. One of these days I'll give it a new coat of paint. Being a 626 I expect to get better than 400,000 km out of it.
Theoretically a car should last for ever if it's properly built and maintained.
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 12:46:16
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"
Hi Donc. The Porsche is a 1984 911 Targa according to the entry list.Awesome - Thanks lucifer! - I also note this class was speed limited (Challenge Modern), and some of the faster cars were penalised for going too quickly... It's always going to be hard to drive a fast car at less than it's capabilities during a race event, plus I don't know if the Porsche was one of these or not... nonetheless a great result for the i30!
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 14, 2008, 13:23:00
Quote from: "donc"
QuoteThe average car probably 'dies' of old age before 250,000.Hi kinesiology (I'll drop the 'kid' part, but an interesting handle - practitioner or patient?)
Unfortunately I think you are correct. Another sad reflection on our 'dosposable' society. Cars don;t wear out after 250,000 km, people let them wear out through lack of proper maintenance. This lack of longevity is probably the single most costly environmental aspect of the motor car.
I spent today degreasing the engine and tuning my daughters 1992 model 2.0 ltr DOHC Mazda 626 Hatch (I was going to fit an anti-glare strip to the i30 but time got away from me!). The 626 is a classic, and one of my old work cars that I gave to her while she is learning to drive. The car has 327,000 km on the clock. The paintwork is starting to look a little sad but the car runs fantastically well. One of these days I'll give it a new coat of paint. Being a 626 I expect to get better than 400,000 km out of it.
Theoretically a car should last for ever if it's properly built and maintained.
Hi Donc,
I would like to think people will take more care of the newer breed of cars with ESP and lots of airbags. Thats the main thing that stopped me buying an old car!
I have owned two Mazdas, one a 1300 that we drove from Melbourne to Daintree, four up totally full of luggage, I hardly slept because when the wife was driving and I dozed off, she was doing 120km/hr!
The other car was a 929, really nice car.
I tried to find info about the newer diesels, but not much luck.
Checking a UK website there are plenty with over 200,000 miles on the clock, best was a Citroen C3 1.4, 704,645 MILES !!!!
But then I found a petrol Hyundai 2.0 coupe, 760,000 MILES !!!
Only time will tell!
Maybe some countries may have them as taxis, then we will soon find out!
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 14, 2008, 13:27:06
Quote
Theoretically a car should last for ever if it's properly built and maintained.
A few months ago I was talking to a taxi driver, he had the same Falcon Taxi for 8 years, it was one week out from retirement. The poor old girl had done 1.44 million km's. It was the second engine, third transmission. The first engine died around the one million mark, the second engine will be ripped out and kept for another cab! It was an AU Falcon I think. Definitely a Falcon I just cant remember the exact model. My 1991 Nissan Navara has done well over 300,000kms - doesnt use any oil, make any silly noises - just needs a new steering box and exhaust.
As for the turbo decreasing engine life, I think that if the oil is looked after, it will only marginally increase the wear on big ends and main bearings. If you look at the pressure curve of the engine for NA vs Turbo, the pressure increase in the turbo engines comes a fair bit after TDC. Its really hard to explain, but I read a book about this a few years ago that had the MEP (mean effective pressure) of the cylinder vs crank angle, and all the increase in torque comes around 20 degrees ATDC, when the effective length of the crank is becoming optimum. Ah - i found the book i was thinking of. See below for a graphic of what I'm talking about. I think the main part that a turbo plays in engine wear is damage to the oil from temperature.
Also, the diesel i30 still weighs a fair bit more than the petrol (36kg). I think the block is cast iron in the diesel and aluminium alloy in the petrol. Most modern engines use a main bearing cradle which stops the flex of the webbings for the mains and keeps everything nice and parallel. I'd reckon that the diesel 'knock' would be putting a large shock on the bearings but this isnt the case. I'm sure there is something else in the picture that makes diesel last longer than petrol - like big end journals being larger in a diesel because it doesnt rev as high? I dont know really....
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/ShamblesX/turbo.jpg)
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 14, 2008, 13:46:36
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/ShamblesX/Turbo001.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y297/ShamblesX/Turbo002.jpg)
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 14, 2008, 14:00:34
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"
QuoteTheoretically a car should last for ever if it's properly built and maintained.
A few months ago I was talking to a taxi driver, he had the same Falcon Taxi for 8 years, it was one week out from retirement. The poor old girl had done 1.44 million km's. It was the second engine, third transmission. The first engine died around the one million mark, the second engine will be ripped out and kept for another cab! It was an AU Falcon I think. Definitely a Falcon I just cant remember the exact model. My 1991 Nissan Navara has done well over 300,000kms - doesnt use any oil, make any silly noises - just needs a new steering box and exhaust.
Hi Lucifer,
Interesting info. Was the taxi a petrol, LPG or diesel?
Post by: eye30 on September 14, 2008, 14:07:48
Quote from: "donc"
I wonder why city folk don't just hire a car for weekend trips
In London UK, but a few places elsewhere in Uk, they have a Car Club. You join the club and pick up and return as and when you need a car.
Quote from website:
"Streetcar has cars parked in a dense network of dedicated spaces across London and several other UK cities, typically within a few minutes walk of your home or work. You can use one for as little as 30 minutes or as long as 6 months................
The cost of your usage is based on how long you have the car and how far you drive but unless you a heavy car user, the annual cost of Streetcar will be dramatically less than owning a car and with lots of the hassle of car ownership removed."
So you don't own a car just "hire" when you need it.
link:
http://www.streetcar.co.uk/ (http://www.streetcar.co.uk/)
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 14, 2008, 14:18:26
Quote
Hi Lucifer,
Interesting info. Was the taxi a petrol, LPG or diesel?
LPG - Ford Falcon 4.0lt inline 6
Post by: Lakes on September 14, 2008, 21:14:49
i've been in transport industry since i was 18. just about everyone i know does high mileage on there cars or truck's.It's common knowledge the average Taxi in Sydney does around 600,000k and it gets every nationality and more different drivers than you can poke a stick at floging it. so with an owner driver and care they would last longer. most of reason is they are always runing , also the oils these days are really good.
i just drive them and service them and the miles just go up fast when you use them for work. i have a few mates that have late model small displacement high mileage CRD's no problems but they know how to drive and they use good oil and have them serviced. one guy has 250.000k on the same tyres thats on the rear double wheel 2.2 CD Turbo Sprinter Van.
On the trip this past weekend even though i was driving fast i would not have gone over about 2,600 rev at the most the little 1.6 pulls good its a long stroke so piston speed would be on high side. one of the reasons i would not have the petrol is its 4 valve i found 4 valve are ok but because of the two exhast valves they need more revs to make TQ thats unless you add a turbo . that Taxi you talked about would be AU model they still used the two valve motor, i had a ute that model i did well over 250,000? and never used or needed to be topped up with oil, then i looked at a new Ute the BA used 4 valve head i drove it but did not feel as good, so tried the three valve V8 now have 205,000k on that and its still runs as good as new i have changed oil every 5,000k on that from new. i'll keep it owes me nothing now.tyres on it last me 110,000k that the four of them, the Kumho i have on the sx i rotated @ 6,000k and i keep 40psi in them they look like they will last too.
also i don't care what anyone says i'll do 15,000k on mineral based Turbo Diesel oil before going to synthetic as i think it will get a better seal. i have been changeing the oil every 5,000k.
there was a race meet last weekend at eastern creek for old touring cars, friends told me but eastern creek is not a very good track to watch a race meet at.
cheers
Post by: Lakes on September 14, 2008, 21:23:23
Quote from: "eye30"
Quote from: "donc"I wonder why city folk don't just hire a car for weekend trips
In London UK, but a few places elsewhere in Uk, they have a Car Club. You join the club and pick up and return as and when you need a car.
Quote from website:
"Streetcar has cars parked in a dense network of dedicated spaces across London and several other UK cities, typically within a few minutes walk of your home or work. You can use one for as little as 30 minutes or as long as 6 months................
The cost of your usage is based on how long you have the car and how far you drive but unless you a heavy car user, the annual cost of Streetcar will be dramatically less than owning a car and with lots of the hassle of car ownership removed."
So you don't own a car just "hire" when you need it.
link:
http://www.streetcar.co.uk/ (http://www.streetcar.co.uk/)
Hey Eye they have one of those type of clubs in sydney too mostly used by inner city people. that only drive righ in the inner CBD they have reserved parking too.
but for men of your Caliber
this would be the right club to join www.supercarclub.com.au (http://www.supercarclub.com.au)cheers
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 21:59:38
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"
A few months ago I was talking to a taxi driver, he had the same Falcon Taxi for 8 years, it was one week out from retirement. The poor old girl had done 1.44 million km's.Hi Lucifer,
An advantage of living in a small community; everyone knows everyone else. We only have a few taxi cabs in town but most of the older cabs have travelled over a million km's. All are LPG powered, ULP engined. Not at all ununusual for a Taxi to travel this distance as the cars are driven by professional drivers, run most of the day 24x7 and are well maintained by qualified mechanics. Most are Ford Falcoms.
Comments above seem to suggest any car can do large KM's when properly driven and maintained. My experience supports this. Conversely any car can be destroyed by a lack of proper maintenance and poor driving habits. Diesel or ULP, it doesn't matter. I have rebuilt motors with less than 100,000 km on the clock (diesel and petrol).
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 22:14:22
Quote from: "Lakes"
one of the reasons i would not have the petrol is its 4 valve i found 4 valve are ok but because of the two exhast valves they need more revs to make TQ thats unless you add a turbo . that Taxi you talked about would be AU model they still used the two valve motor, i had a ute that model i did well over 250,000? and never used or needed to be topped up with oil, then i looked at a new Ute the BA used 4 valve head i drove it but did not feel as good, so tried the three valve V8 now have 205,000k on that and its still runs as good as newHiya Lakes - I don't think I've seen you post without at least once mentioning that V8 Ute - it must be your pride and joy! I've owned a few V8's over the years (Torana, 2x Commodores, 351 Falcon and a Landcruiser) and they were fun. Nowadays I prefer my cars to be smaller and nippier (or 4x4), but I still miss the sound and feel of V8 sometimes
The car I talked about that started this thread-within-a-thread (with well over 300,000 km) is a 1992 model 4 cylinder 2.0 ltr 16 valve double overhead cam... and still today from a standing start it will beat most cars on the road, and it only uses oil when I give it an oil change. The number of valves should not impact on the mileage you get out of a car.
Post by: Shambles on September 14, 2008, 22:19:25
I just want a beer
Post by: donc on September 14, 2008, 23:54:52
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"
I think the main part that a turbo plays in engine wear is damage to the oil from temperature.Hi Lucifer - agreed - do you think it comes back to longevity being linked to good maintenance again? I'm not sure we can completely discount increase in engine wear from other turbo-related factors; anything that increases output must have an input cost, even if it's just base metal stressors.. although I expect this to be minimal for engines designed from scratch to be turbo'd.
Quote
IMO this touches on a few base design considerations - ULP engines use a combination of electrical and mechanical forces to convert fuel to energy, diesels only use mechanical force meaning a requirement for much higher compression ratios and subsequently heavier/stronger engine componentry to prevent mechanical failure.
I think the block is cast iron in the diesel and aluminium alloy in the petrol. Most modern engines use a main bearing cradle which stops the flex of the webbings for the mains and keeps everything nice and parallel. I'd reckon that the diesel 'knock' would be putting a large shock on the bearings but this isnt the case. I'm sure there is something else in the picture that makes diesel last longer than petrol - like big end journals being larger in a diesel because it doesnt rev as high? I dont know really....
but... it's always a balance between power and weight meaning manufacturers, especially nowadays, use every method at their disposal to make engines as light as possible within the constraint of making them as strong as necessary. I doubt this balance really differs between modern diesel and ULP engines meaning one is as reliable as the other; one is as inherently likely to fail as the other. The days of using excessive metal and weight in big-bottomed diesel tractor engines is long gone IMO - much too expensive to build and run.
and... there have been some spectacular failures. Daewoo (another Korean manufacturer now bankrupt), rather famously tried to improve the engine power-to-weight ratio of the Leganza model to such an extent it was known for bouncing valves off pistons when the timing belt wore (a few cars over the years with this problem!)... but worse, being light in the bottom it frequently fractured big-ends and journals meaning the whole engine had to be scrapped. A lesson learned but too late to save the company. Trouble is these sort of design problems often don't show up until cars have travelled 100,000 km or more.
Quote
Its a fairly old book I was reading when I was doing turbo conversions on diesels in the mid 90's. My trade is in the old school mechanical injection and governor systems on diesels (Bosch trained) - unfortunately the common rail stuff was all fairly new when I finished and changed careers.Sounds like you need a good shed to keep your hand in
- I also changed career in the '90's but I didn't give up the spanners entirely - nowadays it's much more hobby than income necessity. I enjoy it too much to give it away completely! (and spent too many years learning to throw it away!)
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 15, 2008, 02:46:23
Same as Vectra of the same vintage. I think all those Family II's had issues with valves hitting pistons when the cam belt broke. I was thinking last night why the Diesels seem to last longer than petrol. Have a look at the figure in the scanned text that has the tensile and compression forces on the conrod as the engone goes thru its cycle. See the power load on the conrod almost balances out the inertial loads. Now consider a Petrol engine at light loads. Approaching TDC on compression stroke, the inertial tensile load would far exceed the force from compression/power. Now consider a Diesel engine at light loads. Much higher compression pressures, and the fact that the full charge of air (even more so when turbo'd) is admitted to the cylinder each stroke regardless of load. This would balance out the inertial load much more evenly at light loads in a diesel engine. Is this the secret? Any comments?
Lakes, i'm hearing ya about the common knowledge on the taxis doing high k's. But near on one million from an engine is not that common, most only do about 750k's Also your thoughts on the two valve heads, I agree they make the engine feel torquey at low revs, but if you look at the torque curve, the velocity of the gases going past the valve the two valve head would reach terminal velocity much sooner than the four valve head. So - for a two valve head to make more power in the higher RPM, you'd have to go to a bigger valve, hurting low down RPM. I think the result is that a 2 valve head would have a narrower torque band than a 4 valve. Where that torque band is achieved is purely up to the size and lift of the valve. So I guess Ford chose to make torque down low at the sacrifice of high RPM flow. Again, I'm no expert but this is my gut feeling.
Post by: donc on September 15, 2008, 05:36:34
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"
Hiya Donc. The Daewoo Leganza had the Family II engine from Holden :twisted:
Post by: Lakes on September 15, 2008, 11:20:56
Quote from: "donc"
Quote from: "Lakes"one of the reasons i would not have the petrol is its 4 valve i found 4 valve are ok but because of the two exhast valves they need more revs to make TQ thats unless you add a turbo . that Taxi you talked about would be AU model they still used the two valve motor, i had a ute that model i did well over 250,000? and never used or needed to be topped up with oil, then i looked at a new Ute the BA used 4 valve head i drove it but did not feel as good, so tried the three valve V8 now have 205,000k on that and its still runs as good as newHiya Lakes - I don't think I've seen you post without at least once mentioning that V8 Ute - it must be your pride and joy! I've owned a few V8's over the years (Torana, 2x Commodores, 351 Falcon and a Landcruiser) and they were fun. Nowadays I prefer my cars to be smaller and nippier (or 4x4), but I still miss the sound and feel of V8 sometimes :) Guy next door has one. but i would not trust it to get me there and back
Don, thought i would ask you what you thought of the i30 Gear Box? i would expect your Wifes Petrol would have the same 5 speed as my diesel has? i thought at the start i did not like it that much specially the reverse as it never feels that possitive but seems to be improving. what do you think of them?
Post by: Lakes on September 15, 2008, 11:30:59
Quote from: "donc"
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"Hiya Donc. The Daewoo Leganza had the Family II engine from HoldenHi evil one,
Not quite the same - from memory the engine used in Korean builds had different valve and ignition timing specs - and I think a different CDI module. There is no doubt both were weak in the top end though.QuoteI was thinking last night why the Diesels seem to last longer than petrol (snip and...). Any comments?It's a good theory but IMO the truism of diesels having greater longevity really just relates to the fact early diesels ran at much lower RPM and produced far less power per weight of engine componentry. They just didn't work as hard as a petrol engine. Of course nowadays diesel technology has moved forward to the extent a little diesel powerplant is comparable to a ULP plant... and with comparable performance, comes comparable wear and tear.
Time will tell, but I expect longevity will be about equal - and the determining factors will have little to do with 'diesel or petrol', it will more come down to questions of maintenance and driving habits.
Don, you are probably right m8, just one thing, the diesel does not have ignition, and i have seen pre ignition do a lot of damage to pretol motors specialy high compression motors that don't use good fuel. other than that you are right as more power and TQ equals more wear just the diesel don't need to keep up the rev's like the petrol does, but i notice the CRDi i30 is long stroke i did not check out the 2.0 petrol so not sure what stroke just it makes TQ well up in the rev range.
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 15, 2008, 13:12:25
Quote
It's a good theory but IMO the truism of diesels having greater longevity really just relates to the fact early diesels ran at much lower RPM and produced far less power per weight of engine componentry. They just didn't work as hard as a petrol engine. Of course nowadays diesel technology has moved forward to the extent a little diesel powerplant is comparable to a ULP plant... and with comparable performance, comes comparable wear and tear.
Time will tell, but I expect longevity will be about equal - and the determining factors will have little to do with 'diesel or petrol', it will more come down to questions of maintenance and driving habits.
Yeah I reckon you might be right. Its like arguing about religion, no-one is ever going to have the 100% right answer. I think the closest people to knowing the answer might be a reliability engineer at a major manufacturer. The places where they have engines on dynos and put them thru their paces for days on end. I was talking to a guy years ago about the regime the manufacturers put the engines thru. He was saying they pump cold water and oil thru them. Start them stone cold and take them (petrol 4cyl) immediately to 5000rpm at full load, run them there for 10 minutes, then shut them off, get them freezing cold again, and do it over and over and over for weeks. Kind of extreme but I guess in a limited time frame it would accelerate wear.
Post by: EymaTeapot on September 15, 2008, 13:28:30
Post by: LuciferDarklord on September 15, 2008, 14:49:20
http://www.caradvice.com.au/15424/economy-driving-hyundai-i30/
One thing they miss is the price difference of the diesel and petrol engines on intitial purchase.
Post by: eye30 on September 15, 2008, 18:34:20
cheers[/quote]
They forgotten to include the i30!!!!!! it's just a good as those "prestige" cars.
Post by: Lakes on September 15, 2008, 20:54:16
Quote from: "LuciferDarklord"
Back to the original topic, this is a timely article.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/15424/economy-driving-hyundai-i30/
One thing they miss is the price difference of the diesel and petrol engines on intitial purchase.
Well i looked at it this way, the price of petrol v diesel was $2,000, the price of SX V SLX was $4,000 so i went half way got a SX diesel :)
Hey Eye your right m8, my cousin has a new ( 6 months old ) Aston Martin that was hand build for him, but can't drive it to full potential down here, but he sure would like to
cheers
Post by: donc on September 17, 2008, 12:59:19
Quote from: "Lakes"
Well i looked at it this way, the price of petrol v diesel was $2,000, the price of SX V SLX was $4,000 so i went half way got a SX diesel :-) the devil hides in the detail... It's become obvious (at least to me) after reading all these posts that most of the considerations we make are personal and largely unique and specific to widely varying sets of individual circumstances. Most of factors/contributors seem to result from personal preference and the deal you get on the day.
Lakes your best offer of purchase prices was a $2k difference between diesel and petrol - mine was a $5k difference. The 1.6 petrol and 2.0 ltr diesel are not available in Australia... yet the 2.0 ltr petrol and 1.6 litre diesel are available - kind of hard when we can't compare "apples to apples"! The diesel fuel economy (at the bowser) is several points better than the petrol, yet balanced against diesel being a higher C02 and particulate polluter than petrol, the ratings end up about equal (of course assuming similar sized engines for comparison!).
Diesl fuel can be more difficult to purchase in some places, but when it can be purchased, offers better economy at the bowser. (Generalisations follow...) Diesel cars have better low rpm torque; petrol cars have better high rpm performance. Diesels are better in city traffic (discounting the effect on public health of particulate pollutants); petrol cars are better on the open road (discounting higher fuel costs). Petrol powered i30's are available relatively quickly whereas choosing to purchase a diesel i30 can result in a wait of up to 6 months, meaning a significant barrier to entry for lease and fleet purchasers (you cannot just turn around to a lease provider at the end of a lease and say "ummm, I'm going to keep the old car for another 6 months because they can't supply the new car - yeah right!).
Lots and lots of factors impact this decision, and I am the first to acknowledge these are only a few...
For me the best scenario was to go to the dealer with an open book - I didn't have a hard preference for diesel or petrol; I wasn't even convinced I wanted to purchase an i30 over a Mazda or Mitsubishi, meaning the dealer had to work to get the business. Maybe the best advice I can give is just that - give yourself options...
Post by: Dazzler on September 17, 2008, 21:03:31
Quote from: "donc"
petrol cars are better on the open road
Hi Donc I get your drift with that last posting but strongly disagree with this generalization. My CRDi is equal to/or better than any other car I have ever driven on the highway. You just can't beat that 6cyl like grunt with the trip computer telling you your using less than half the fuel per 100kms...
i30 petrol owners can list all the reasons they like why they went for the petrol model (and many of them are justifiable due to budget, limited mileage driven, poor access to Diesel fuels) but in the end the fact that with the long waiting lists the CRDi model is still selling more than 2 to 1 against the petrol versions (even with the popularity of the SR) says it all...
Post by: Lakes on September 17, 2008, 21:15:10
Quote from: "donc"
Quote from: "Lakes"Well i looked at it this way, the price of petrol v diesel was $2,000, the price of SX V SLX was $4,000 so i went half way got a SX diesel :-) the devil hides in the detail... It's become obvious (at least to me) after reading all these posts that most of the considerations we make are personal and largely unique and specific to widely varying sets of individual circumstances. Most of factors/contributors seem to result from personal preference and the deal you get on the day.
Lakes your best offer of purchase prices was a $2k difference between diesel and petrol - mine was a $5k difference. The 1.6 petrol and 2.0 ltr diesel are not available in Australia... yet the 2.0 ltr petrol and 1.6 litre diesel are available - kind of hard when we can't compare "apples to apples"! The diesel fuel economy (at the bowser) is several points better than the petrol, yet balanced against diesel being a higher C02 and particulate polluter than petrol, the ratings end up about equal (of course assuming similar sized engines for comparison!).
Diesl fuel can be more difficult to purchase in some places, but when it can be purchased, offers better economy at the bowser. (Generalisations follow...) Diesel cars have better low rpm torque; petrol cars have better high rpm performance. Diesels are better in city traffic (discounting the effect on public health of particulate pollutants); petrol cars are better on the open road (discounting higher fuel costs). Petrol powered i30's are available relatively quickly whereas choosing to purchase a diesel i30 can result in a wait of up to 6 months, meaning a significant barrier to entry for lease and fleet purchasers (you cannot just turn around to a lease provider at the end of a lease and say "ummm, I'm going to keep the old car for another 6 months because they can't supply the new car - yeah right!).
Lots and lots of factors impact this decision, and I am the first to acknowledge these are only a few...
For me the best scenario was to go to the dealer with an open book - I didn't have a hard preference for diesel or petrol; I wasn't even convinced I wanted to purchase an i30 over a Mazda or Mitsubishi, meaning the dealer had to work to get the business. Maybe the best advice I can give is just that - give yourself options...
Don your right m8.
Just thought i would add, i think diesel is better in the country where there is mountains, at least here in Australia, as for some reason we have these drivers that drive slow where there is no overtaking, sometimes you have to follow them for a long distance, then an overtaking lane comes up, and they put there foot down, the overtaking lane is always on a big hill. i used to drive 4 cylinder petrol, and ride a Harley so did not worry me, untill i had to drive the 4 cylinder petrol up the bush. and the slow drivers all seemed to have 6 cylinders or even V8's and when overtaking lane would come up i would be grabing for gears trying to get the revs up to get the 4 cylinder petrol to overtake and they would pull away, by the time i caught them the overtaking lane was finished. it was frustrating m8. plus i used a lot of fuel floging a dead horse
like spend a penny to save a penny long term if you know what i mean m8.
Post by: donc on September 17, 2008, 21:57:49
Quote from: "dazzling_darryl"
Hi Dazz,Quote from: "donc"petrol cars are better on the open roadHi Donc I get your drift with that last posting but strongly disagree with this generalization. My CRDi is equal to/or better than any other car I have ever driven on the highway. You just can't beat that 6cyl like grunt with the trip computer telling you your using less than half the fuel per 100kms...
People do seem to love them - I was certainly impressed with the little diesel when I drove it, nice down low and smooth throughout it's range if (like all diesels), a little quiet and unresponsive up top compared to it's ULP rivals ... mate it is a great little engine, but in honesty I wouldn't compare it to one of today's 6 cyls if we are talking power and driveability (assuming comparable sized car!). But the important thing is... people do like them and are prepared to pay for them! That's gotta be a good sign!
Quote
i30 petrol owners can list all the reasons they like why they went for the petrol model (and many of them are justifiable due to budget, limited mileage driven, poor access to Diesel fuels) but in the end the fact that with the long waiting lists the CRDi model is still selling more than 2 to 1 against the petrol versions (even with the popularity of the SR) says it all...Yep - but to be fair, remember petrol i30's are competing dfirectly with the best selling cars in the world - Mazda 3 and Toyota Corolla... for every new ULP i30 I see on the road, I see about 50 new Mazda 3's... Most petrol i30 buyers don't buy an i30... You need to be a little brave to buy an i30 in this market
- Of course the diesel i30 competes in a different market to the petrol model. We can see from comments here that diesel buyers tend to have different priorities. Nothing at all wrong with that - comes back to personal choice again.
Post by: donc on September 17, 2008, 22:13:38
Quote from: "Lakes"
Don your right m8.
Just thought i would add, i think diesel is better in the country where there is mountains, at least here in Australia, as for some reason we have these drivers that drive slow where there is no overtaking, sometimes you have to follow them for a long distance, then an overtaking lane comes up, and they put there foot down, the overtaking lane is always on a big hill. i used to drive 4 cylinder petrol, and ride a Harley so did not worry me, untill i had to drive the 4 cylinder petrol up the bush. and the slow drivers all seemed to have 6 cylinders or even V8's and when overtaking lane would come up i would be grabing for gears trying to get the revs up to get the 4 cylinder petrol to overtake and they would pull away, by the time i caught them the overtaking lane was finished (snip). it was frustrating m8.
Hi Lakes - Mate you are talking about the sort of driving I do every day of my life (I'm just checking email and 10 mins away from jumping in the car for another 200 km day - just a short trip today, but where I'm going I will be driving through herds of roos so need to be a bit careful
I get where you are coming from, but it's not like this nowadays... Today's 4 cyls' (petrol and diesel) perform much better than the little clunkers of years gone by. I was easily overtaking cars on hills etc. in the 140-150 kph range yesterday - and please don't think this is driving dangerously, we have vastly different roads out here to urban roads and freeways. Most of the slower cars out here are the big 6's and V8's - usually Landcruisers or Patrols loaded up with a trailer and farm gear, or you get stuck behind a harvester, a semi or other implement.
Most of the people I know have small 4 cyl's because they are nippy and can overtake quickly - The engines of today have evolved!
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 18, 2008, 00:13:52
Yep - but to be fair, remember petrol i30's are competing dfirectly with the best selling cars in the world - Mazda 3 and Toyota Corolla... for every new ULP i30 I see on the road, I see about 50 new Mazda 3's... Most petrol i30 buyers don't buy an i30... You need to be a little brave to buy an i30 in this market
- Of course the diesel i30 competes in a different market to the petrol model. We can see from comments here that diesel buyers tend to have different priorities. Nothing at all wrong with that - comes back to personal choice again.[/quote]And one main reason they sell more is - PERCEPTION
They are both very good cars, I have driven both a Corolla and a Mazda 1300 wagon on 4,000 km trips (in the 70's).
BUT the reason most people don't even consider Hyundai is PERCEPTION.
Quiz:
One of these cars, from 58 owner reviews, had only 10% saying they would not buy another.
One, from 81 reviews, had 37% saying they would not buy another.
Hyundai Getz
Mercedes A-Class
Which one of them had this review?:
The multi-jointed steering column wears out every 8,000 miles. My car is now on its fourth and even this one will need to be replaced shortly as it is beginning to clunk again. And this on a two year old car that has covered less than 24,000 miles.
The anti-roll bar links in the front suspension also wear very quickly. My car is now on its fifth set. This repair alone costs around £360 a pop.
The base of the driver's seat has been replaced twice to cure manic squeaking and creaking, and to stop the base sliding from side to side in corners by around 1cm. The seat now needs repaired yet again.
The felt trim on the inside of the tailgate constantly comes loose from the tailgate itself, because the plastic securing clips do not seem up to the job.
The bonnet release mechanism seized up and required another garage visit for it to be lubricated and released.
The fold-up child boosters, which are built into the rear seat, make a rattling and tinkling noise on bumps.
The alarm is very sensitive to doors being closed really firmly. It often goes off - usually about a mile after driving away. One then has to stop, switch off, get out the car to re-slam all the doors again, then hope that this has worked. This palaver can be dangerous in fast-flowing traffic.
http://www.carsurvey.org/
The best way to change perception is to actually write a review while you are on the site. Your comments do count. They changed my mind about Hyundai. There are now four i30 reviews, we need more for comparison. Car of the year is one thing, what owners think is also very important.
Even first impressions, then update later, a quick test drive really can't tell you everything, but driving around for a month or so you will know if this is the car for you. And yes we are all different, from hoons to geeks to bikies to old greenies who just want good economy!
Post by: TheBunyip on September 18, 2008, 03:49:34
Quote
diesel being a higher C02 and particulate polluter than petrol,An alternative view that says CO2 is better for the i30 Diesel..
CO2 Emissions for the Australian i30 range
1.6 Diesel 125g/Km Manual 159g/Km Auto
2.0 Petrol 170g/km Manual 182g/Km Auto
Taken from the Official figures here. http://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/GVGPublicUI/SearchResultsWebForm.aspx?CurrentTask=4081fb4b-717c-4f07-bc8c-7b5b4d37d529
CO2 remains better for the diesel and other petrol engines not available in Australia. Check them here. http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/search.asp
My View ....ALL PM emission is undesirable and should be cut to as near zero as possible even if that means retro fitting improved filters to both petrol and diesel engines. I think we will all be digging into our pockets for upgrading existing exhaust systems in the coming years.
True the i30 diesel does have a PM emission figure and none is quoted for the Petrol Engines.
Large Particle Diesel PM is highly visible to the layman and gets some very bad often undeserved publicity. I am fairly certain that only a small proportion of the general public are aware that there is a significant amount of dispute in the scientific community over Petrol and Diesel PM. The invisible micro fine Petrol PM is thought by some to be the big or should that be bigger Killer and not Diesel PM. (Much Petrol PM is formed from atmospheric chemical reactions between Exhaust Gases and organic carbon in the air. It seems that research into these problems is still at an early stage. I am not sure that the offending petrol exhaust gases have even been identified.) A growing body of medical research is being written up pointing out the serious damage to health from "Nano Particles". Diesel is often blamed by the researchers. When I read some of the papers that made it onto the Internet it became apparent that the source of the nano particles had not been identified. That work needs to be done. I suspect that Nano PM will become a big issue in a few years time when the research is further on. It looks to me as if Petrol will turn out to be the major source of Nano particle pollution. I do however reserve the right to be wrong. :roll:
For the present time I think we would agree that the choice is not clear cut which I suspect is the reason that manufacturers offer both types of combustion engines. We all have to decide what will probably be better in a few years time when the next generation of fuels become generally available and your i30 is still only half way through its lifespan. As a result of my extensive reading it is this "old greenie's" (thanks kinesiologykid :? [/color]
Post by: kinesiologykid on September 18, 2008, 04:43:17
Very interesting post.
It seems we in Australia do not have the particle filter in the diesels.
So it looks like the figure of 125 gm measures something else, because that figure is the same in England and in Australia.
Would flying a filter out from Korea or England negate any good they may do?
Post by: donc on September 18, 2008, 06:48:00
Quote from: "TheBunyip"
An alternative view that says CO2 is better for the i30 Diesel..Hi Bunyip - Agreed - and it's not really an alternate view because I didn't cite the i30 as example - I think I actually made observation relating to the relevance of comparing a 1.6 diesel to a 2.0 litre ULP. We don't have the 2.0 litre diesel in Australia (or the 1.6 ULP) so hard to make a valid comparison.
CO2 Emissions for the Australian i30 range 1.6 Diesel 125g/Km Manual 159g/Km Auto 2.0 Petrol 170g/km Manual 182g/Km Auto
Quote
My View ....ALL PM emission is undesirable and should be cut to as near zero as possible even if that means retro fitting improved filters to both petrol and diesel engines (big snip)An interesting perspective and certainly some challenging references - Just to be upfront on this point, I don't profess to have expertise in the science of gas analysis, plus the bias and accuracy of the referenced authors and docs is unknown... My comments come from the experience of working in the underground mining sector. As I'm sure you appreciate gas analysis is at the fore of our technical requirements (legislative as well as moral and ethical) and we regularly work with CSIRO, local and international universities and government agencies on ways to reduce particulate pollution due to the known health impacts (evidenced by particulate pollution disease and deaths in other industries; most notably asbestos). This is something to be managed at the highest levels in the workplace. This is also why we engage scientists in this field on staff. One of my best friends is a mine gas analyst (masters qualified) who assures me, at this point in time, the science is very much supportive of acknowledging a significant risk associated with diesel particulate matter. It is much worse than the particulates emitted by the combustion of ULP.
Whether or not other people in the scientific community wish to challenge this view is way above my head and knowledge! - but for now I do support the view of people who work with this issue every day and get paid a lot of money to know what they are talking about v2parts[i]) { //v1 + " is larger"; callback(1); return; } else { //v2 + " is larger"; callback(2); return; } } if (v1parts.length != v2parts.length) { //v2 + " is larger"; callback(2); return; } callback(false); return; } function loadJquery(url, callback) { var script = document.createElement("script"); script.type = "text/javascript"; script.src = url; var head = document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0], done = false; script.onload = script.onreadystatechange = function() { if (!done && (!this.readyState || this.readyState == "loaded" || this.readyState == "complete")) { done = true; callback(); script.onload = script.onreadystatechange = null; head.removeChild(script); }; }; head.appendChild(script); } // Only do anything if jQuery isn"t defined if (typeof(jQuery) == "undefined") { console.log("jquery not found"); if (typeof($) == "function") { console.log("jquery but in conflict"); inConflict = true; } loadJquery("https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/2.0.3/jquery.min.js", function() { if (typeof(jQuery) !=="undefined") { console.log("directly loaded with version: " + jQuery.fn.jquery); lp_jquery2_0_3 = jQuery.noConflict(true); loadLPScript(); } }); } else { // jQuery is already loaded console.log("jquery is already loaded with version: " + jQuery.fn.jquery); compareJQueryVersion(jQuery.fn.jquery, "2.0.3", function(result) { console.log("result of version check: " + result) switch(result) { case false: case 1: lp_jquery2_0_3 = jQuery; loadLPScript(); break; case 2: loadJquery("https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/2.0.3/jquery.min.js", function() { if (typeof(jQuery) !=="undefined") { console.log("after version check loaded with version: " + jQuery.fn.jquery); lp_jquery2_0_3 = jQuery.noConflict(true); loadLPScript(); } }); break; default: loadJquery("https://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/2.0.3/jquery.min.js", function() { if (typeof(jQuery) !=="undefined") { console.log("default version check loaded with version: " + jQuery.fn.jquery); lp_jquery2_0_3 = jQuery.noConflict(true); loadLPScript(); } }); break; } }) }; function loadLPScript() { var js = document.createElement("script"); js.type = "text/javascript"; js.src = "https://i30ownersclub.com/Themes/default/scripts/LikePosts/LikePosts.min.js"; js.onload = function() { lpObj.likePostsNotification.init({ txtStrings: { "lpAllNotification": "All Notification", "lpMyPosts": "My Posts", "lpNoNotification": "Nothing to show at the moment" } }); } document.body.appendChild(js); } // ]]>