[raypinkerton]

Hi Everyone,
I come seeking assistance again. My 2008 CRDi SLX Auto had been getting hard to start recently.  It does this when its due for a service so I was not particularly concerned. Took it in to the local dealer for the 120K service and found after the service it was just as hard or even harder to start.

Starting involves cranking the engine, pumping the throttle madly and then holding it flat to the floor. After about 10 to 15 second of cranking it will cough and then fire. It runs quite rough for a few second and will not idle until its run for 10 to 15 seconds. After that it idles fine while I let it heat up. Restarting the car is not a problem when its hot or even up to 3 or 4 hours after using it. If I drive to work and leave it all day then it's a repeat of the morning experience.

Have taken it back to the dealer who has had it for two days and can't figure out what's wrong. They told me yesterday they have not been able to get it started. Just called them and they have still not been able to get it to start but their top tech thinks it needs the Fuel Rail Regulator, Y31400-2A410.  Unfortunately this is not a part which can be purchased individually, I have to buy the complete fuel rail "package" which when fitted (with rebuilt injectors) is going to cost around $5,000. I also have to wait several weeks for the parts to come from Korea.

From reading up on the forum here I figured the problem was most likely fuel pressure related with pressure bleeding away so maybe the regulator is the problem. Anybody else had trouble with this component?

Can anybody suggest steps or tests I can do myself to try and get to the bottom of what is going on? I'm in Brisbane if anybody can suggest some one for a second opinion?

Thanks everyone,

Ray

 

[eye30]

Was fuel filter replaced at service?

Akso, have they ruled out fuel starvation such as blocked line or pump not working?

[Dazzler]

Sorry to her that. Definitely need a second opinion! Hopefully someone comes up with options and suggestions. 

[Asterix]

Sounds like fuel starvation, but replacing the complete rail, isn't that too much..?

(Why not just change everything between the bumpers then they're safe..) 

[Phil №❶]

Your technique for Diesel starting is completely wrong.

The car is fuel injected so don't pump the throttle, ever

You have a glow plug indicator on the dash, wait for that to extinguish, then begin cranking with no foot on the throttle. If working properly, it should start.

As your car is auto, have they checked the starting inhibitor which only permits starting in P or N.

I can't figure out how they would arrive at the fuel rail, it's just a high pressure pipe isn't it.

[raypinkerton]

Your technique for Diesel starting is completely wrong.

The car is fuel injected so don't pump the throttle, ever

Thanks Phil,
I'll consider my wrist slapped and promise to improve my technique . I must have been doing something right as I did get it started every day.

You have a glow plug indicator on the dash, wait for that to extinguish, then begin cranking with no foot on the throttle. If working properly, it should start.

My glow plug is on for only a second, I've tried cycling back and forwards running the glow plug over and over but it made not one bit of difference. I've not been able to start the car unless it's given plentry of throttle.

As your car is auto, have they checked the starting inhibitor which only permits starting in P or N.

I can't figure out how they would arrive at the fuel rail, it's just a high pressure pipe isn't it.

Don't think they have thought of the inhibitor, I'll mention that, thanks.

Regarding the rail, they told me the fuel regulator was not available as a separate part and I had to replace the complete rail assembly for $2,910.00 plus all the ancillary washers and gaskets plus the injector rebuilds, grand total $5,000.

Sounds like fuel starvation, but replacing the complete rail, isn't that too much..?

(Why not just change everything between the bumpers then they're safe..) 

Hi Asterix, Exactly what I said, I putter around most of the time but I have noticed if I put my foot down it struggles to perk up and respond which I guess is another sign of a fuel issue. Mechanic explained the fuel pressure regulator controls the overall pressure in the system by determining what it holds back in the rail and what it allows to return to the tank. But equally you'd think the fuel pump could have an input in that as well right?. Is there any sort of fuel pressure monitoring for the engine management? The diagnostic tests they have been doing indicate the rail is not coming up to full pressure and the pressure that is there drops away as soon as the pump stops.

Sorry to her that. Definitely need a second opinion! Hopefully someone comes up with options and suggestions. 

Cheers Dazzler

Was fuel filter replaced at service?

Akso, have they ruled out fuel starvation such as blocked line or pump not working?

Hi eye30, Yes fuel filter was changed as part of the 120K service, one of the reasons it was $600+ I was told. I asked why the starting was worse after the service and there was no answer.  Not sure if they've done a flow test but the pump must be able to play as big a part as the regulator in the final pressure, I'll talk to them about that as well, thanks.

[Phil №❶]

I wasn't telling you off, (we're a friendly forum), it's just that your technique is usually used only on petrol engines. Wasn't sure if you knew the difference.

[asathorny]

Even on petrol engines pumping the gas when the choke is out is a no no Phil...   There was a young fella at one of the hospitals in which I worked  some years ago moaning that his car was a bugger to get going.   I said lets go have a look then, so down we went and I said, fire it up, he got in and I immediately said 'no no no, put your feet on the floor OUTSIDE the car'  which he did then I said start it now, he pulled out the choke turned the key and Voila, it fired into life. 

I said, you've been flooding the carb every time. 

I then felt smug for a short while   

[Phil №❶]

Quite correct ASA 

[elantraelite]

Give MTQ engine systems a call in Brisbane. They have all the Bosch testing equipment and work with everything Diesel.

I had my injectors tested by them and after 130,000km were found to be running perfectly.

My issue was rough start. But the car was never hard to start. Still have the issue.

Could it be a glow plug issue?

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[tohis]

Is there any white or grey smoke coming from the exhaust when you are doing a cold start? If positive, then it's likely the glow plugs. Whenever a diesel engine has cold starting problems, glow plugs are amongst the very first things to check out.

[eye30]

I wasn't telling you off, (we're a friendly forum), it's just that your technique is usually used only on petrol engines. Wasn't sure if you knew the difference.

I never pump on my petrol nor did i when i had diesel..

I just depress clutch and turn the key

[Gof]

You could try pumping the priming pump on the filter to make sure there is fuel available at the HP pump before starting.
If that works and you can't locate the problem the old fashioned fix is to put an electric fuel pump on the line between the tank and filter and wire it to the ignition.

[nzenigma]

Have taken it back to the dealer who has had it for two days and can't figure out what's wrong. They told me yesterday they have not been able to get it started. Just called them and they have still not been able to get it to start but their top tech thinks it needs the Fuel Rail Regulator, Y31400-2A410.  Unfortunately this is not a part which can be purchased individually, I have to buy the complete fuel rail "package" which when fitted (with rebuilt injectors) is going to cost around $5,000.Thanks everyone,
Ray

 Wait a minute buddy, Time to escape from that  dealer. We keep ranting about them...do it. 

 The fuel rail pressure sensor ( regulator) simply unscrews from the fuel rail. To remove and replace it is a 30 second job. If it is part of the rail, why does he quote that individual part number?

The starting advice already given here is correct. Don't pump accelerator and allow glow plugs time to work etc.
You don't state how many Kms the car has done, but if it runs normally once you start, I cant see a major operation being needed.

I work on this model i30 quite often. They are extremely efficient and reliable, their only drawback is their dealership workshops. 
Do this for starters,
1. find a non-rapist mechanic  .
2. before starting check the fuel feed to the fuel pump. If it is full of air you may have a leak, possibly around the fuel filter ( firewall passenger side).
3. As a precaution,  Check fuel is clean and free of water. Take sample from top filter in a clear glass and hold to the light.
4. Suction valve on top of fuel pump may be at fault ( fairly rare on the i30)
5. Get the stated rail sensor (new or second hand from a wrecker) .

Good luck

[nzenigma]

This is the i30 fuel rail sensor.

NEW GENUINE BOSCH FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 0281002863 HYUNDAI KIA NEW HOLLAND | eBay

as you can see it is separate to the fuel rail. The rail is not made by Bosch; however the "you need to buy the whole rail"  stunt is used by several dealerships other than Hy.

Burson will probably be able to supply here in Briz.
 
Having re-read your first post, I would be looking for fuel shortage eg. air in line/ cracked fuel hose etc.

BUT I don't understand why you are going to the dealer when your car is no longer under warranty.
 To generalise,
Dealerships prosper from rewards from the maker due to high volume sales. To do this they will cut margins (profit) to beat off competitors. Their big reward comes from continued servicing and repairs during the warranty period  $$$$$.

[raypinkerton]

Hi Guys,

Time for an update.

Dealer's head technical guy had told me the fuel system in the i30 is a Delphi system in Australia so I had been looking for information on this and not getting far.

Ended up booking it in with a diesel specialist on north side of Brisbane who had the car for the day and then phoned me to say they could not find a problem. I had made it clear the problem was cold starting when I booked it in but ended up having to leave the car over night so they could see it cold. They could not identify the root of the problem but started talking about seals and replacing hoses and O rings as they could see the rail fuel pressure going up and down they said. They did confirm the fuel system is Bosch not Delphi so I don't know what the dealers guy was looking at. I've always though you got better servicing from the dealer as their guys are Hyundai trained but I've had that illusion well and truly shattered.

Was not too impressed by the feedback from this company as they seems to know no more than the dealer. Asked around at work for recommendations, sorry elantraelite had not seem your posting at this time. Was referred to a local repairer by my boss who has 8 cars in his family that all go to the one shop. Did a little name dropping with the owner who was good enough to say diesels are not their specialty and he referred me to the company he sends his diesel work to down at Springwood.

Spoke to the springwood company while the car was still at northside guys and as soon as I told them the symptoms he guy said yup that will be bad glow plugs, had an i30 in last week with the same problem so I booked an appointment, had to wait over a week to get in. Suggested glow plugs this to northside guys who still had the car and they said the same as the dealer, will not be that, don't need glow plugs in Queensland. Paid their inspection fee and retrieved my car with quotes for thousands of dollars worth of work.
 
Dropped the car off last night to the springwood company, they called early afternoon, all four glow plugs dead. Gave the go ahead for the repair and have just had the car delivered back to me by a friend who lives close to the company.

I'm about to drive it home so will let you know how it all goes, fingers crossed it's all good now. Tomorrow morning will be the teller.

Cost of the repair was $450. $250 inspection and diagnostics, $200 for the plugs. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow morning :-). Thanks to all those who offered support and suggestions.

[raypinkerton]

This is the i30 fuel rail sensor.

NEW GENUINE BOSCH FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 0281002863 HYUNDAI KIA NEW HOLLAND | eBay

Thank you for your very informative posts. The dealer told me they checked the fuel when they had the car and it was fine. I'd not filled up since.

BUT I don't understand why you are going to the dealer when your car is no longer under warranty.
 To generalise,
Dealerships prosper from rewards from the maker due to high volume sales. To do this they will cut margins (profit) to beat off competitors. Their big reward comes from continued servicing and repairs during the warranty period  $$$$$.

Yes I think I've been cured of my addiction to the "better" servicing I though I was getting at the dealer. In your experience what is a reasonable life expectancy for the 1.6 CRDi engine with mostly city use?  I have been very happy with my car up until this event, my faith has been somewhat restored now I found somebody who seems to know what they were talking about. 

[Phil №❶]

 

[Dazzler]

Overall a good result Ray. Thanks for the update.. 

[eye30]

Glowplugs......

Shouldn't that have been the first option by all garages.
....especially the dealer who are supposed to be the experts for their brand

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[eye30]

Just read your first post on this.

You say it had just haf 120k service.

Are the glow plugs a replace item on thiss service?

If not at what service were/are they due for replacement?

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[Asterix]

Just read your first post on this.

You say it had just haf 120k service.

Are the glow plugs a replace item on thiss service?

If not at what service were/are they due for replacement?

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There's no intervals for replacing glow plugs. Only renew when bad.

Unfortunately Hyundai's CRDi engine is hard on the glow plugs, but no worry, they're easy to replace...... most times 

[nzenigma]

This is the i30 fuel rail sensor.

NEW GENUINE BOSCH FUEL PRESSURE SENSOR 0281002863 HYUNDAI KIA NEW HOLLAND | eBay

Thank you for your very informative posts. The dealer told me they checked the fuel when they had the car and it was fine. I'd not filled up since.

BUT I don't understand why you are going to the dealer when your car is no longer under warranty.
 To generalise,
Dealerships prosper from rewards from the maker due to high volume sales. To do this they will cut margins (profit) to beat off competitors. Their big reward comes from continued servicing and repairs during the warranty period  $$$$$.

Yes I think I've been cured of my addiction to the "better" servicing I though I was getting at the dealer. In your experience what is a reasonable life expectancy for the 1.6 CRDi engine with mostly city use?  I have been very happy with my car up until this event, my faith has been somewhat restored now I found somebody who seems to know what they were talking about.

Hi Ray, Thanks for the thanks, no problem, glad to see some good results coming your way.
Many of the early (2008) CRDi vehicles that I have worked on have over 250,000Km on the clock. Most have done a mix of town and highway to get that high. All were running perfectly. With regular oil and filter changes it would not surprise me if these motors are still reliable at 400,000km plus.
Glow plugs are rarely an issue here in warm Queensland; and especially in CRDi motors. The high rail pressure almost makes them redundant.
Cheers G 

[cleid]

Fingers crossed this fixes your problem!

[XinZhao]

Unfortunately Hyundai's CRDi engine is hard on the glow plugs, but no worry, they're easy to replace...... most times 

what does that mean? Do the glow plugs run even after the engine started? I read about them staying on for several minutes to warm the engine ASAP.

[nzenigma]

Unfortunately Hyundai's CRDi engine is hard on the glow plugs, but no worry, they're easy to replace...... most times 

what does that mean? Do the glow plugs run even after the engine started? I read about them staying on for several minutes to warm the engine ASAP.

Yes, will operate for while, it is dependant on coolant temperature.
I assume that they will have greater time on in the uninhabitable icebound countries.

[raypinkerton]

Hi Guys,

Well guess what, its perfect. So nice to turn the key and have it start after one crank. You guys are right, its it a trap I've fallen into myself, thinking the problem is complex and going looking for a complex solution. Think I'll go see the dealer personally and convey the news, should be good for a laugh, even if it was at my expense.

Now I  have to sort out the blower fan and it will all be working perfectly.

So the company who fixed the problem, Diesel Australia +61 7 3808 6988, Slacks Creek QLD.  Highly recommended.

Thanks again guys.

[tw2005]

Reading all this with interest as mine is a 2008  CRDi and I find  it's harder to start on cold mornings but not too bad. It has 188 000k now.

This is what i found looking up the part numbers and I found some of the thread info confusing as the OP originally mentioned pressure regulator and then later we're talking about pressure sensor.

Going on the dealer quoted Fuel rail 31400-2A410 this should make this car a pre 8 Aug 2008 production as after this I see 31400-2A420.

This is the 31400-2A410 rail



This is the regulator 314022A400



This is the sensor 314014A400   



after 08 Aug 2008

The rail 31400-2A420 which no longer has the regulator fitted to it which mine has.

[Dazzler]

Tw2005 I would go with the glow plugs 1st.

[tw2005]

Tw2005 I would go with the glow plugs 1st.

Agreed, it runs perfect just cranks a few secs longer dead cold.  Is it the glows  that can seize in the head? That's my main concern other wise a set can be had for $100 which I would not mind as a preventative measure.