[pcmc]

Hello everyone,

I have my i30 Comfort petrol since it was new in 2009.
Hardly any trouble until recently.
The car wont start, just cranks. 
In the dashboard, the icon of a car with a key comes on solid, and disappears after a minute.

Took the car to the Hyundai dealer in Oxford three times, but problem keeps reoccurring.

Initially, the car just occasionally would not start.
Booked the car in, but they could not find any fault.

The 2nd time  they found the exhaust flexi pipe cracked and thought the poor start was due to excessive oxygen flow.  They replaced the exhaust flexi pipe for the cost of £320.  Drove back home, but the fault re-occurs in the following morning.

They sent some mechanics around, reprogrammed the immobliser with the spare key.
It works for a couple of days, while I booked the car in again to reprogramme the regular key.

This time in the service log, they say:
Carried out investigation into vehicle not starting. Confirmed fault.
Carried out DTC check, no fault found.
Upon further diag, found immobiliser faulting. carried out hard wire of Smartra antenn
to vehicle, re-tested. all ok with both keys.
Customer to monitor.  if fault, vehicle must return.

But they also indicate, if they fault reoccurs, they shall need to open up the front of the
car.  That will be 3 hours of labour to open up and a further 3 hours to put them back.

Drove the car home, drove to work in the morning, and it wont start again in the evening.

Same symptoms, the car just cranks, wont start.
At the dashboard the icon of a car with a key stays solid on when I switch on the electric with both the usual and spare keys, and the icon  disappears after a minute.

It does look like the immobliser acknowledges the validity of the key, cancel the car icon, but not able to unlock the car.

I start wonder would it be a big and expensive job to replace the immobiliser?
Can the immobiliser be disabled at all?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

[Dazzler]

Peter,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Not nice to spend all that money and be no closer to a solution. We have three Australian members categorized as technical advisors who may have some ideas when they see this in the morning.  I will alert them to your plight.

@cruiserfied @ngenigma @tw2005

We have other mechanically savvy members who may chip in as well..

Good luck!

[yodm]

take notice when this happens.
is the rev counter showing anything or the needle seats on 0.
if the ESP off light is on.
if so, could be the crank shaft sensor.

 

[pcmc]

Thanks for your speedy response.

The speedometer stays at 0, or hardly any movement.
The ESP Off light is off.

(Meant to send a photo on the dashboard, but the zipped file is 371K over the 200K limit.)
In the photo, the following lights are on (solid):
EPS, seat belt, battery, Brake, oil and engine.

Many thanks again.

Peter

Welcome Peter


You can use Imgur Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet to upload your photos then copy paste the forum code produced in your next post.

[tw2005]

Thanks for your speedy response.

The speedometer stays at 0, or hardly any movement.
The ESP Off light is off.

(Meant to send a photo on the dashboard, but the zipped file is 371K over the 200K limit.)
In the photo, the following lights are on (solid):
EPS, seat belt, battery, Brake, oil and engine.

Many thanks again.

Peter

yodm said rev counter aka Tachometer (engine speed)

[cruiserfied]

Hey.
If the immobiliser light stays ON while cranking tthe key has not been validated. If it turns OFF while cranking it is valid and immobiliser is disarmed.

The key reader, ring around ignition barrel, is often found to be the concern with immobiliser. It will cause the same conditions you have but nearly always logs DTC's. It sounds like your dealer has thought the same if they hardwired the antenna coil.

Also, as yodm said, definately check your tacho is coming off 0rpm.

[nzenigma]

Gidday Peter,
These intermittent faults are the worst to deal with. Often it comes down to trial and error servicing, unlike mechanical devices, electronic components may not be measurably at fault.

It does sound like you have a fault involving the immobiliser . As Tim says, the antenna is a common fault.

However you say "It does look like the immobliser acknowledges the validity of the key, cancel the car icon, but not able to unlock the car."

I assume 'not able to unlock the car'  means the engine will not start ??? Or has the remote on the key stopped opening doors? If so, this is a separate issue and not related to engine failure.

[pcmc]

Thanks, again for your responses.

Here is the photo on the dashboard I meant to send.
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet


I have also taken a video clip to show the dashboard when I start the car,
but unfortunately the mp4 video is too big (234M) for imgur....

Peter

[Shambles]

You can upload the video to youtube, or send it to me using https://wetransfer.com/ and I'll get it hosted for you.

[pcmc]

Just put the video clip into youtube:



Peter

[nzenigma]

Thanks for the video Peter.  Now I am less certain that it is the immobiliser . Your video shows the key code being read, the immobiliser is turned off while you crank the motor.
 As you crank the Tacho remains on zero then gives a slight kick at which time the engine is again immobilised.

Tim, aka @cruiserfied  has vastly more experience here, so I await the great ones arrival. 

However, I am thinking that some electronic component, possibly the crank shaft sensor, is intermittent. In your video there was a short spike then the system returns to pre-start condition which as usual requires the immobiliser to be unlocked. 

[cruiserfied]

I would have expected the tacho to rise to around 200rpm while cranking but im still not 100% dismissing immobilizer.

I'd like to know/see what happens when you crank the engine straight away. NOT wait until the immobilizer light turns off.

Could someone with an FD confirm the tacho reads something/anything while cranking. If i get my hands on one tomorrow i will check it.

[pcmc]

Thanks, to nzenigma and cruiserfied, for their responses.

Having tried quite a few times, the car battery is now running low.

My recollection is that when I crank the engine right away, there is no movement on the tacho.

A perhaps naive question, given the number of failures, is it possible to get rid of the immobiliser, or disable it?

The dealer mechanics have already looked into this 3 times.  I am concerned that if they should spend further 3 hours to open up the "front" and a further 3 hours to restore it may lead us anywhere...

Regards,
Peter

[cruiserfied]

The immobilizer is not something that can just be removed anymore. Years ago systems were add-ons but now the ECU is involved.
Its something i have always been curious about, whether you can permanently disable it somehow. But have not spent any time investigating it.

Does the immobilizer light stay on or go out when you crank it straight away?

[pcmc]

The immobiliser stays on when I crank the engine.

Does that mean anything?

The dealer mechanic did reprogram it with the spare key, and it worked for a couple of days,
then fails again...

[cruiserfied]

When the light stays on when cranking the immobilizer is not disarming.

Why its not disarming i cant say.

[pcmc]

Would it be a big job to replace the immobiliser?

[yodm]

also notice the ESP off light comes on. this happens when the crank shaft sensor is bad.
I will check tomorrow what happens when I start the car.

[nzenigma]

I would have expected the tacho to rise to around 200rpm while cranking but im still not 100% dismissing immobilizer.

I'd like to know/see what happens when you crank the engine straight away. NOT wait until the immobilizer light turns off.

Could someone with an FD confirm the tacho reads something/anything while cranking. If i get my hands on one tomorrow i will check it.

@cruiserfied

Hi mate, The tacho sits on 0 while cranking then flicks up to 100 -200 rpm before firing. About same movement as Peter's video shows.
Have the 'advantage' of a dodgy EVAP valve on this one so could also get a long crank period before she fired. Tacho on 0 rpm until then.

Cheers G

[cruiserfied]

I would have expected the tacho to rise to around 200rpm while cranking but im still not 100% dismissing immobilizer.

I'd like to know/see what happens when you crank the engine straight away. NOT wait until the immobilizer light turns off.

Could someone with an FD confirm the tacho reads something/anything while cranking. If i get my hands on one tomorrow i will check it.

@cruiserfied

Hi mate, The tacho sits on 0 while cranking then flicks up to 100 -200 rpm before firing. About same movement as Peter's video shows.
Have the 'advantage' of a dodgy EVAP valve on this one so could also get a long crank period before she fired. Tacho on 0 rpm until then.

Cheers G

Excellent. Thanks for that, what's your thoughts?

[nzenigma]

My thoughts are, it would be great if we had some DTCs.
After watching the video again I now see that the immobiliser light had come on again before that short flicker of the tacho.
As much as we want to ignore it, the light is telling us the engine IS immobilised.
The dealer's techs have apparently made the same assumption, worked on the key reader etc and had the car running for a day or so.
That has the hall-marks of an intermittent electronic component /'chip', in the region that they are working; in this case the  immobiliser.
As you say the antenna coil is a common culprit. I wonder if they replaced it or just hardwired it. It is possible that a coil will have shorted turns or intermittent internal break.
 Back to you squire

[cruiserfied]

My thoughts are, it would be great if we had some DTCs.
After watching the video again I now see that the immobiliser light had come on again before that short flicker of the tacho.
As much as we want to ignore it, the light is telling us the engine IS immobilised.
The dealer's techs have apparently made the same assumption, worked on the key reader etc and had the car running for a day or so.
That has the hall-marks of an intermittent electronic component /'chip', in the region that they are working; in this case the  immobiliser.
As you say the antenna coil is a common culprit. I wonder if they replaced it or just hardwired it. It is possible that a coil will have shorted turns or intermittent internal break.
 Back to you squire

I'm on the same page as you.
Op did say they checked and found no DTC's. Antenna coil throws 2 codes smartra error and eeprom error.
Not a lot more to be done from a keyboard unfortunately.

[pcmc]

Thanks gentlemen for all your help here.

It looks like the immobiliser is faulty.
Just wonder how big a job it is to replace the immobiliser, or permanently disarming it, assuming it is legal to do so.

[yodm]

here is a video of a "good" start



and a video of what I come to believe is an intermittent crank shaft sensor
you can see that the immobilizer light stay on and no rev counter on startup and after the engine finely starts.
shutting off and then engine start up just fine

[yodm]

you can see that in normal starting, the rev counter will move a bit
and in a faulty starting, the immobilizer symbol stay on until the engine finely starts.

[Dazzler]

Thanks for going to all that trouble yodm 

[nzenigma]

Thanks gentlemen for all your help here.

It looks like the immobiliser is faulty.
Just wonder how big a job it is to replace the immobiliser, or permanently disarming it, assuming it is legal to do so.

Mate, its frustrating when you can only 'talk' and not do.
 It often happens to us, but quite often we can steer owners away from huge costs due to apparently incompetent mechanics or some erroneous theory.
 In this case your mechanics seem to be on the ball. Sorry.
The immobiliser is not easy to get at for a very good reason. Car thieves are clever.
There is a chance that your mechanics quickly find something simple such as a poor connector, but they need to get behind the dash to do it.
Feel free to hit us again with the problem if something develops. 
 

[cruiserfied]

you can see that in normal starting, the rev counter will move a bit
and in a faulty starting, the immobilizer symbol stay on until the engine finely starts.

I did expect to see a small rpm when cranking, and didn't completely dismiss crank sensor. The strange bit is that you do see the tach move.

[pcmc]

Thanks again gentlemen.

It may open up a few more questions for me.

What does the crank shaft sensor do?
If it fails (in sensing the crank shaft motion), will still prevent the engine from starting?

Will "DTC" report its failure?

Where is the crank shaft sensor, under the bonnet?
Is it equally awkward to get to, check and replace compare with the immobiliser?

Sorry for so many questions.