[Dazzler]

Sounds wise Mick!

[The Gonz]

If it's worth including an indicator, it's worth paying attention to the problem.

[nzenigma]

If it's worth including an indicator, it's worth paying attention to the problem.

That's why "stirrers" have BS indicators.   

@mickd , mate if the battery has been flat or disconnected, the ESP OFF light will light until you drive it , do a turn or two and then switch off ignition. Next start ESP should reset and light will be off. Probably too "scientific" for your salesman.. 

Regarding Charlie's problem, I'm just taking long distance punts, its apparently related to road speed and not engine speed (rpm). Hope it helps.

[mickd]

Thanks for the info NZ, we did start engine and spin steering but didn't actually move the car.

[tw2005]

I'm wondering if ABS sensors could be part of this mix too.

[nzenigma]

Maybe. But would look at the age of the battery first. If its been in a yard for a while with a door ajar , it could have gone flat and been recharged.
If Ive been working on one and had battery disconnected, the ESP will be off. I just go into the paddock and do one full left turn and same right and its cured.
Actually, never had any ABS faults on the i30. Touch wood!

[charlie8]

Another interesting observation today

Clutch down at speed - will drop RAPIDLY ( one of the issues and so bad driving experience on gearchange ) to 1K, no less
Clutch down at stop - will drop to 850-900

So something seems to be telling the car its moving to pick one of the two options depending on moving or not

I have a Kia also, very similar, and noted just how different the clutch down experience is, and how it was on my i30 before this all started. At speed Kia holds the revs momentarily for 1-2 secs then drops fairly slowly, mine plummets.

From my research, if a wheel sensor was out then the ABS light would show for the diff reading, for me its only ESC and at 50 mph. Just to be clear, its the ESC light, not the ESC OFF light. AND all the others issues I see due to this

[Aye30]

Hello, just looking at your last post "Just to be clear, its the EPS light, not the ESP OFF light"  EPS is another system, which up until this point, had not been mentioned.

[charlie8]

Jees what a numpty, so much internet surfing on the subject, brain and fingers are not working together. Edited above to make it right. No ESP probs, never has been

[nzenigma]

Electronic stability control (ESC) is also referred to as electronic stability program (ESP)

[nzenigma]

Just to be clear, its the ESC light, not the ESC OFF light. AND all the others issues I see due to this

That seems to tell me the ECU is trying to 'reset' for want of a better term. Similar to the cluster at start up, its indicating that you have functioning  ESC/ESP.

Clutch down at speed - will drop RAPIDLY ( one of the issues and so bad driving experience on gearchange ) to 1K, no less
Clutch down at stop - will drop to 850-900

 At speed Kia holds the revs momentarily for 1-2 secs then drops fairly slowly, mine plummets.

Just to come back to Cruise Control and the non-functioning ISG .There must be some correlation. Do the revs drop rapidly in the Kia if you are using CC?
In the i30, is the rpm drop similar to braking while using CC or cant you get it to work ever ?

Can you start the car, then disconnect the clutch switch , then drive normally? Do the revs drop?

Not having ISG on an i30 here, Im relying on the rants in unreliable Euro posts. Can you disable ISG at startup or better still permanently?

[nzenigma]

Battery Voltage????? Check it.
Low voltage or faulty LIN sensor will influence ISG

[charlie8]

Just to summarise the data in one place ( i30 76K, 2012 UK 1.6CRDi BLue Active - GD ). Issues below all started at once,  6 weeks ago now.

Symptoms

Car starts fine - everytime - every ~20 days it does feel a bit lumpy on tickover for a short while, been like this for a ~ year
No lights on at start or driving ( < 50 mph )
ISG stopped working
CC not working - switches on and dash light, but can never set a speed
Clutch down when moving - RPM will drop RAPIDLY ( one of the issues and so bad driving experience on gearchange ) and goto 1K if left, no less. This happens even with no ESC light on ie from start
50 mph ESC light comes on ( whatever gear )

Notes

There are no other lights, no other symptoms, car drives fine in all cases other than bad/jolty gear change because the revs drop so much with clutch down
Brake lights are fine
ABS working when I stamp on the brakes
ESC light flashes when I force a wheel spin ( when light is on )
Car ONLY starts with clutch down
ECU reset ( battery disconnect ) no difference
No ODBII codes pending or set ( even with ESC light on )
My OBDII run time showed throttle at 12% and never moving - I don't believe the PID is right as revs never hunt and fluctuate on drive cycle
Wheels off, every disc/pad seated OK, plenty of wear, pulled wheels sensors, all cleaned, cables look good

Secondary Notes

One wheel has a puncture repair ( 2 years ago ), can see rubber 'stool' in the tread
Rear tyres nearing limiters, fronts quite new.
Tyre pressures all good

[Dazzler]

Just to summarise the data in one place ( i30 76K, 2012 UK 1.6CRDi BLue Active - GD ). Issues below all started at once,  6 weeks ago now.

Symptoms

Car starts fine - everytime - every ~20 days it does feel a bit lumpy on tickover for a short while, been like this for a ~ year
No lights on at start or driving ( < 50 mph )
ISG stopped working
CC not working - switches on and dash light, but can never set a speed
Clutch down when moving - RPM will drop RAPIDLY ( one of the issues and so bad driving experience on gearchange ) and goto 1K if left, no less. This happens even with no ESC light on ie from start
50 mph ESC light comes on ( whatever gear )

Notes

There are no other lights, no other symptoms, car drives fine in all cases other than bad/jolty gear change because the revs drop so much with clutch down
Brake lights are fine
ABS working when I stamp on the brakes
ESC light flashes when I force a wheel spin ( when light is on )
Car ONLY starts with clutch down
ECU reset ( battery disconnect ) no difference
No ODBII codes pending or set ( even with ESC light on )
My OBDII run time showed throttle at 12% and never moving - I don't believe the PID is right as revs never hunt and fluctuate on drive cycle
Wheels off, every disc/pad seated OK, plenty of wear, pulled wheels sensors, all cleaned, cables look good

Secondary Notes

One wheel has a puncture repair ( 2 years ago ), can see rubber 'stool' in the tread
Rear tyres nearing limiters, fronts quite new.
Tyre pressures all good

Great idea Charlie!

[nzenigma]

I have the feeling that you have a corrupted programme because you also cannot set CC.  But, the problem is also centred around the ISG and clutch switch .
Did you disconnect it? If not, time to get your hands dirty . 
You don’t have to start the car first, ignition lock switch is a separate one on the side, signal switch is the top one.
Here is an explanation of its function translated from Korenglish:
 Normally, when the clutch pedal is depressed during driving, engine load changes from loaded to none loaded condition. However, ECM regards vehicle to be loaded because the VSS signal is still inputted to it. Therefore, ECM controls a none loaded engine with a condition suitable for loaded engine.
Accordingly, optimum fuel injection control is not performed then; the RPM becomes unstable and smoke is produced.
However, the clutch switch transmits the clutch operating state to ECM. This signal enables the ECM to cope with instant change of load condition. The clutch switch signal is also used to detect engaged gear with vehicle speed and engine speed..
Check clutch switch pull-up voltage
(1)
IG KEY "OFF", ENGINE "OFF".
(2)
Disconnect clutch switch connector.
(3)
IG KEY "ON". 
(4)
Measure the voltage between signal terminal of clutch switch harness connector and chassis ground.
Specification : 11.5V ~ 13.0V
Check open in clutch switch signal circuit
(1)
IG KEY "OFF", ENGINE "OFF". 
(2)
Disconnect clutch switch connector and ECM connector. 
(3)
Check continuity between signal terminal of clutch switch harness connector and ECM harness connector.
Specification : Continuity ( below 1.0Ω )
ground Circuit inspection
1.
IG KEY "OFF", ENGINE "OFF".
2.
Disconnect clutch switch connector.
3.
Check continuity between clutch switch connector terminal 1 and chassis ground.
Specification : Continuity ( below 1.0Ω )
Component Inspection
1.
Remove the clutch switch.
2.
Push the clutch switch shaft inward to make sure that continuity is cut off.

Good Luck.

I should add that the above switch has two contacts. I don't have ISG data, so you may find a 2nd set of contacts. Also a bit vague on whether or not , on an i30, you can deactivate this insidious ISG. Pulling the plug may be a pleasurable experience.

[charlie8]

Thanks again

Switch still suggests a logical output - so battling why if I can ONLY start with clutch down - ie the on/off must be working. I'll try disconnecting and see what diff it makes. And try in the KIa to see if I can replicate the symptons

Your instructions are so tricky without the full resources - what/where is the ECM harness connector ? I look to just order a switch ( they are cheap ) but 11 different flavours exist for this year/model alone

I did find this - closest I have ever got to my list of issues anywhere on the net, most don't list the other stuff thats wrong when they post as its not explored - but this seems spot on, although does not say if started without clutch.

C/C, ESC, CD player, Auto Stop issues *SOLVED*

I am steering now back to Hyundai fault finding - I would hope that on a test drive with all the sensor input showing, that will pin down the rouge reading. I all my years of working on cars this is so bloody frustrating - you really have to have the source code of the s/w in the car to really know. I've had pretty shakey marques in the past including new age MGs/Alfa's etc and although its a painful search but you find a similar instance on the net or easy way to home done the issues based on the facts of whats happening with the ODBII data and pulling stuff around. No workshop guides/downloads/deep routed invests to go on here from the net ...

Driving me nuts , the car makes are locking us into these costly dependencies, even Kia told me the s/w is different to Hyundai and cannot help - I think thats false, its the front end into it that forces it to be different, the code will be shared. Elec cars will be worse .....

[charlie8]

Yep, I am folding - even trying to prise out the clutch switch is too hard. Upside down trying to squeeze the grommet together to get out the connector out of its holder, with space for just 1 finger, not even long nose pliers can help - so frustrating. I noted the micro switch inside seems very healthy, hear it clicking. 2 wires in, just does not feel right this fto be the issue, the switch is working, and won't start without it down.

I noted the battery is 12.3 V, my Kia is 12.6V, my fully charged spare battery is 12.7V. Its 5 years old and recently the wife took for small journeys in last 3 months for first time in its life. Cannot think how thats related to ESC light though and does that difference really matter enough.

Might charge overnight  - if that does not work I give up

[sundiz]

Cannot think how thats related to ESC light though and does that difference really matter enough.

When the voltage drops in modern cars, they start to shut down different modules to save electricity for the motor. Usually ABS or ESP are the first ones to turn off. Charge the battery over night and measure the battery voltage again. With and without the motor running. 12,3V indicates that the battery is in bad condition. Full battery should be ~12,8V and when engine is running the charge voltage should be ~14V.

[nzenigma]

Switch still suggests a logical output - so battling why if I can ONLY start with clutch down - ie the on/off must be working. I'll try disconnecting and see what diff it makes.
-

as said previously , there are two switches.

[nzenigma]

Yep, I am folding -

  wish I Knew that last week

[charlie8]

Me too

Anyway, had a second wind after you reminded me about the other switch - I was put off by the deep invest of switch 1 which seemed OK to me by symptom. I managed to find the other from that very tiny gif and pulled the connector - it was quite oily on and inside, which is strange for that area of the engine

Took for a drive disconnected and no change - so car performs the same with all those symptoms. Cleaned up connection best I could ( it was very tight ) with cotton bud and WD40 spray aiming- took for spin, hoping, and still issues. It might be the short stretch of road but this time could go over 50, but was first touch of brake afterwards where it came on.  I 'think' or maybe just too close to 50 to not notice

Anyway, I 'think' this is good news and must tell something. The bad news is the sensor is connected straight into the loom, so if the connector is duff due to contamination it looks tricky, if the sensor itself is bad - I guess not so bad as looks like with the air box removed I can get to it

...OR maybe unrelated and that sensor is ignored if something else is wrong ?

What do you think ?

[Dazzler]

My head hurts now!

[nzenigma]

Seems some confusion over switches. The two I referred to are on the clutch pedal frame. One on top & one on the side.
The continuity and  voltage measurements should be taken cross the top switch pins 1&2 and or their connectors.
The last  link you have found increases my suspicion about it. Its function needs to be checked. You don't need to know ECU connections to do this . KISS theory.

Removal of the plug can be awkward irrespective of personal strength.
This is my patented 'wimp helper'. Selling world wide for A$60 plus freight.

[nzenigma]

My head hurts now!

  Your has just started ? You are lucky. Gaz exits left in search of valium. 

[John B]

@nzenigma  Top marks for sticking at this and helping charlie8 in what is one of those tricky little problems, especially in the difficult situation of trying to solve it through post communication. Good on you.

[nzenigma]

Thanks JB, appreciate your encouragement. Its a bit frustrating because ISG is foreign to me but I know we are sniffing around the correct components to find the fault. Cheers G. 

[mickd]

This is my patented 'wimp helper'. Selling world wide for A$60 plus freight. 

Looks more like a tool of torture      

[charlie8]

Well I think we might have it

Sorry, if I missed it, as I cannot see any ref to 2 clutch switches in the drivers bay, until you just said - but glad you did

Indeed buried behind lots of other stuff I can see the clutch UP switch and on inspection - there is no plunger or indeed if I push onto it nothing is going in/out - so either wedged in or fallen out as there is a dot in the middle. Presuming that its a similar switch and its not some complex elec pressure sensor

So the car never thinks its got into gear

One thing that hit me this morning - the ECO change up indicator which lists the gear too, is not working, just did not miss it I guess, until I thought I have not see that for while - because it does not think it got in or out of first gear !

This suggests why at 50 mph it prob thinks the car is about to enter doom as its either coasting at that speed in neutral or your engine is about to blow in 1st gear

Is my logic right nzenigma do you think and time to order the part ?

[charlie8]

Thats definitely it - just checked on the Kia- there is a black plunger sticking out. On the i30 its wedged in flat ie plunger stuck in. tried prodding it, but its well and truely stuck - so I guess the spring inside is minced

I'll hold the celebrations until I've fitted the part - but everything tallies from data in this thread. Now just to order

Thanks nzenigma for your patience - I could have done this without your insight, we went around the houses a bit, but think you've nailed it for me

[nzenigma]

@charlie8  Thanks. Hey that's brilliant news mate. However, I will put off the celebration until we get the word that the car is definitely cured. 
It may be worth getting a cheap pair of pliers and making a wimp aid. You will note that the prongs push in the 'button' or clip on the side of a connector. Also helps if as you do this, you push the connector inward, then pull it out and off.
Cheers G.