[Martin]

Yes of course we have our own i30 - its pictured here in this thread

[Thumper]

Martin, I wasn't sure if those vehicles were available for comparison drives. That is why I was asking.

As for some of us being able to notice a difference with a certain modification, yet where a dyno shows no gain, I have proven time and time again that I am attaining better economy. Does the dyno show this?    (This is not a pissing contest, over 1,300km per tank, and 3lt/100km over 200km shows that this is a real world difference)

I have no doubt in what you say is true, an exhaust change does nothing for the power output. (Well, as you tested, removing the exhaust all together) Yet you also say that the ECU can reduce power if need be.

What I, and others here are trying to say is, a freer flowing exhaust provides a difference in power, economy and sound. None of us have removed the exhaust entirely.

Thus, could it be possible that with no exhaust, the ECU detunes the motor to keep power/torque levels at a constant, yet with a slightly more free flowing exhaust, the ECU is not tripped into detuning the engine output?

It's just a thought.

I've read through all your previous publications, and whilst you have been very thorough in the past, I find it very hard to believe that a turbo vehicle (Be it petrol or diesel) will not gain any power or torque with the restrictive exhaust removed. (Yes some have actually lost power, due to a highly tuned exhaust and/or an electronic limiter of some sort.)

Doesn't that seem rather 'odd' to even the likes of yourself?

Martin, we are not having a go at you, far from it, it's just that some numbers don't add up!

[Martin]

I think you will find the numbers do add up if you look at the whole system analytically :geek:

We removed each part of the exhaust system a step at a time for testing (both tuned and untuned), not the whole lot in one large chunk, and indeed our test car has a 'rear' muffler delete' in place simply because it sounds better with it removed. We didnt go to great lengths here, simply a flange plate and nice little stainless steel 'dump' that comes out under the car and costs around $75 in parts and labour...we weld them up and ship them for $100

[TheBunyip]

Hi Martin,

This is a fascinating thread even for an absolute Diesel Novice like me. Thank you for your explanations. You may recall that d_d asked a question on our behalf when you were starting work on the i30 CRDi about the absence or presence of a particulate filter in the exhaust system of the i30. I am the nut who cannot get his head around Hyundai's emission claims for the i30. It is supposed to meet EURO4 standards in Australia and elsewhere. The UK and Australian emission figures (for PM especially) are almost identical which is a puzzle if one has a (working?) filter and the other does not.

A I understand it, the DPF component of the UK exhaust appears to be included in the Australian system but should be something like an empty tube if Hyundai Australia are correct that there is no DPF fitted to the Australian i30.  I have attached the photo originally posted by Shambles indicating the component thought to be the DPF because I would hate to cause confusion with my description.

 From the front looking back.



When you were working with the various stages of the exhaust system removed did you or any of your team notice if the possible DPF section was hollow or did it contain any kind of Matrix material?

I appreciate that this may not have figured in your work but it is exercising my mind somewhat.  I would be grateful for any light you may be able to shed on this puzzle.

[Lakes]

Yes of course we have our own i30 - its pictured here in this thread

Marin i'll put my money were my mouth is and go to a Mainline Dyno and check, but can't do it for a few weeks. will be checking economy from the pipe change this weekend.
cheers
ps seems to be a lot of mainline dyno's in sydney, do you know a good one? If not i'll find out sunday. i think it will be interesting as it's not the sound that infuence's me as i have said i'm profoundly deaf as a result of an accident, so the sound has nothing to do with it.
 Matin i'm just wondering if you have your dyno in a sound proof room? as this would be the only different to compare if i test on a dyno the same as you have, here in sydney i'm sure they will all be in a sound proof room , just hope it does not effect the difference. as always hard to compare dyno to dyno. but if i put stock pipe on then test and swap to this pipe will see the difference if any.

[TheBunyip]

Hi Martin and Lakes,

This post is definitely going to come under the heading of a fool (This One) rushing in where angels should fear to tread.

I have been puzzled over the apparent benefit of a free flow exhaust for experienced drivers like Thumper and Martin's measurements not detecting any benefit. (Hope that is not stating things too forcefully.)

Lakes will recall that I have previously found an article which offered some explanation here http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109291/article.html and suggests that Free Flow exhaust modification can be worthwhile.

This did not enable a novice like me to understand Martins Measurements so I went back to the site and dug around. I found this. http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109306/article.html Unfortunately it does not address Martins point about where the back pressure is produced in the Turbo.

Because the Diesel in question in these articles is not a Common Rail Turbo I am sure that direct comparison would be impossible. However as the author had experienced benefits from Exhaust modification and Intake modification as well I was intrigued to read  of his problems in using a Dyno to measure his improvements and his explanation.

Whether he is onto anything that might shed some light on the issues you two are discussing I cannot say. I offer the links in the hope of assisting communication not muddying the water or creating disagreement.

If the links are a waste of your time please ignore them and kindly refrain from telling me where to go. I shall now  retire to the sidelines anyhow.

[Dazzler]

Hi Bun-yip,

Your posting are alway appreciated. Please don't deride yourself..

[Lakes]

Bunyip keep posting m8, the dyno is a test tool,  i'll try too tests one with RPM, the other timed, to show what i was talking about, it's just another way to use a dyno as a tool. this will cost me $ but i'm not planing on trying to gain any $ as i don't need too. could be a waist and it might not be but  thats how you learn. you never take one man's word, specially if two others can notice. also Bunyip i'll find out for sure if thats a CPF in the pipe.
cheers

[Martin]

Lakes....if you are planning to run on a Mainline dyno they dont actually incorporate 'timed dyno runs', as these kinda went out in the 70s when decent tuning shops could afford decent dynos. If you want 'times' go to the track (i.e. WSID)....other than that keep trying to flog your exhaust concept on here with no data to back it up other than the SOTP (Seat Of The Pants meter).....surely you have no $ to make out of it, but its also obvious you have no $ invested in it as what you recommend simply does not work, nor have you tested it in any standard way

[Lakes]

Lakes....if you are planning to run on a Mainline dyno they dont actually incorporate 'timed dyno runs', as these kinda went out in the 70s when decent tuning shops could afford decent dynos. If you want 'times' go to the track (i.e. WSID)....other than that keep trying to flog your exhaust concept on here with no data to back it up other than the SOTP (Seat Of The Pants meter).....surely you have no $ to make out of it, but its also obvious you have no $ invested in it as what you recommend simply does not work, nor have you tested it in any standard way  but when he talks people listen. i think the old truck Chassis dyno he bought he is going to convert it to work same as your mainline. he looked at Superflow Dyno's but wanted something better  as some of the motors he dyno's rev realy high, superflow used a cast dyno wheel that can fracture from vibration. his is all billit. i've watched some big HP supercharged V8's on it and some turbo's some made up over the 1,500HP mark so the dyno is strong.

Martin, if i find there is no economy gain with this pipe and the dyno shows no power or torque gain i'll just put the stock back on and won't worry me at all m8 as just transport, i'm not racing it.
what i would like to try is LPG with the diesel, what do you think?

[Martin]

martin, my friend Kim Baker, makes his own Dyno's ( water engine dyno )......well Kim does timed and RPM, said he likes to use timmed to see how quick they can make power, shows up a motor that is slow to rev.

You better let Kim in on a secret then (might help him out) as it is impossible to perform a timed dyno run using a water brake dyno. Just like the Mainline, the engine dyno time is 'given' to you at the start of the run. If you timed the run, then every result would be the same for a given setup. I am sure Kim would agree old inertia dynos where a stopwatch was used to time the run in an effect to calculate power really is dinosaur technology and best left in the 1970s.      

[Lakes]

martin, my friend Kim Baker, makes his own Dyno's ( water engine dyno )......well Kim does timed and RPM, said he likes to use timmed to see how quick they can make power, shows up a motor that is slow to rev.

You better let Kim in on a secret then (might help him out) as it is impossible to perform a timed dyno run using a water brake dyno. Just like the Mainline, the engine dyno time is 'given' to you at the start of the run. If you timed the run, then every result would be the same for a given setup. I am sure Kim would agree old inertia dynos where a stopwatch was used to time the run in an effect to calculate power really is dinosaur technology and best left in the 1970s.      

Martin, i know a few people here in sydney useing LPG with CRD turbo's just all MB's not i30. they all showed a good economy gain and say they perform better. there is a guy  here does the conversions.
did you know Hyundai are going LPG electric. already have and there is talk its coming here

[Mick]

Whilst I can understand the overall increase to 99kW from 85kW using the indicated 14kW increase. I cannot see where the 330nm comes from.

Given the stock graph indicates approx 255nm and the improved graph approx 290-300nm, where does the extra 30nm come from?

[chylld]

Whilst I can understand the overall increase to 99kW from 85kW using the indicated 14kW increase. I cannot see where the 330nm comes from.

Given the stock graph indicates approx 255nm and the improved graph approx 290-300nm, where does the extra 30nm come from?

i would also like to know this

Martin: is there any way i can try the chip out first before buying it? and also, any news on that bigger blower?  

[Dazzler]

Whilst I can understand the overall increase to 99kW from 85kW using the indicated 14kW increase. I cannot see where the 330nm comes from.

Given the stock graph indicates approx 255nm and the improved graph approx 290-300nm, where does the extra 30nm come from?

i would also like to know this

Hi chylld,

You might need to send Martin an email - he's a busy man and I don't think he gets on this site much now (Or go to his tuning site - the link's on here somewhere)

Think Martin said 0-60km was 9.6 on standard CRDi which surprised me ( UK website say over 11 from memory - as you know their strength is in 3rd and 4th gear)

[chylld]

You might need to send Martin an email - he's a busy man and I don't think he gets on this site much now (Or go to his tuning site - the link's on here somewhere)

Think Martin said 0-60km was 9.6 on standard CRDi which surprised me ( UK website say over 11 from memory - as you know their strength is in 3rd and 4th gear)

thanks for the tip darryl.

yeah i bet a lot of roadtesters set acceleration times by revving up to the redline (4.8k rpm) before changing gear... in my i30 at least, it's actually better to change up around 3-3.5k rpm as it lands you right in the torque band in the next gear.

it's definitely faster 40-100 than my 2.0 civic though, which was already under 10 sec 0-100...

[freakzoide]

I'll be remapping my car next month. I'll be getting around +25bhp +50Nm on one of the best remapping companies in Europe.
When it's done I'll show you guys.

But you can see a remapped Cee'd tested here:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews ... _ceed.html

[Lakes]

I'll be remapping my car next month. I'll be getting around +25bhp +50Nm on one of the best remapping companies in Europe.
When it's done I'll show you guys.  
good luck mate i'm not having a go at you just trying to explain that its very hard to compare unless you put them side by side and race.

[freakzoide]

I don't want to much Bhp!
I just want to have the car a bit faster. As you probably know, when remapping a diesel engine it produces alot more black smoke. I personally prefer ~130bhp with no smoke, than 140bhp with a storm behind me! Besides.. my personal aim is to get more torque, I don't really care about the final bhp.

September the 13th... is the day!
I'll be doing a test before and after.

[chylld]

OK i'm trying to decide between this dw tuning pack and the dpchip plug-in solution. both bring the i30 to about 100kw/300nm, the dw tuning apparently does it in a more sophisticated way (dpchip just alters fuel pressure) but the dpchip is easily installed/removed in about 5 minutes.

the dw tuning pack is cheaper (about $1000 vs $1300) but i'm worried about hyundai flashing the car's pcm/ecm at the next service, overwriting $1000 worth of tuning

[freakzoide]

Remaped my car! It still has some work to be done, I'll be re-adjusting the electronics in 2 weeks, but here how it's now:


137.3BHp
299Nm

I'll be adjusting mainly that "brake" at 2000rpm, and the top end power.

[Dazzler]

Hi freakzoide,

You used something other than the DW Tuning Pack? (similar figures I note)

[chylld]

Hi freakzoide,

You used something other than the DW Tuning Pack? (similar figures I note)

the work that's gone into the dw tuning pack sounds impressive, however the dp chip is a 5-minute plug-in job with pretty much the same (100kw/295nm) peak result figures. also the fact that the dw option is an "airbag job" (putting the car off the road for 1.5 days) and can't be tried out or sold makes it really hard to justify (i'm in the market for a power upgrade so i would love to be corrected on these points!!)

[Lakes]

Remaped my car! It still has some work to be done, I'll be re-adjusting the electronics in 2 weeks, but here how it's now:


137.3BHp
299Nm

I'll be adjusting mainly that "brake" at 2000rpm, and the top end power.

Hi M8 looks ok, just you are useing a different correction factor to Martin so hard to compare you are useing DIN, he was useing SAE also if you don't use KW i like HP, PS is yet a different form or power measurment, so very hard to do a dirrect comparrition.
how does it feel?

[Lakes]

Hi freakzoide,

You used something other than the DW Tuning Pack? (similar figures I note)

the work that's gone into the dw tuning pack sounds impressive, however the dp chip is a 5-minute plug-in job with pretty much the same (100kw/295nm) peak result figures. also the fact that the dw option is an "airbag job" (putting the car off the road for 1.5 days) and can't be tried out or sold makes it really hard to justify (i'm in the market for a power upgrade so i would love to be corrected on these points!!)

Hi m8, you would not loose the tune from your ECU, have you meet anyone that owns a i30 CRDi that is useing the DP Chip?

[chylld]

Hi m8, you would not loose the tune from your ECU, have you meet anyone that owns a i30 CRDi that is useing the DP Chip?

i think the dp chip plugs in after all of the computer stuff, so it pretty much just alters fuel pressure. combining it with any kind of ecu tuning would be highly unadvisable!

haven't met/heard from any regular i30 owners with either dp chip or dw tuning pack...

[freakzoide]

dazzling_darryl,
This is a personalized ECU remap.

chylld,
It's not me... It's a specialized company called Vilauto Competitions:
http://www.vilauto.com/

Lakes,
Ps is pretty similar to Hp. The car feels pretty good! But it's not finished! that weird line @2000rpm will be corrected and there will be better fuel optimization (I guess I'll be gaining +2PS and +4Nm on the final version).


Regarding the Speed limiter, I've heard the I30 is limited to 200Km/h. I have a Kia Pro_Cee'd and it was limited to 250Km/h. It still is, I don't have gear ratios to reach it, so I leave it be!

[Lakes]

Hi m8, you would not loose the tune from your ECU, have you meet anyone that owns a i30 CRDi that is useing the DP Chip?

i think the dp chip plugs in after all of the computer stuff, so it pretty much just alters fuel pressure. combining it with any kind of ecu tuning would be highly unadvisable!

haven't met/heard from any regular i30 owners with either dp chip or dw tuning pack...

I don't know much about what the DW tuning pack is all we got told is the boost was turned up but diesel's need more fuel too so not sure what they do.
i asked the DP Chip people and they said they have fitted heaps to i30's, then i asked them could they tell me what port they plug into on the i30, but they could not tell me, so what i think is they just mean they have used a lot on the Bosc ECU that the i30 use but i don't think they have put on onto an i30.  but they were quick to respond and helpfull. no i would not mix the DW tune with a DP Chip, but i don't think i'll do anything to mine as our speed limits are too slow.
cheers

[chylld]

well the dpchip for the i30 is the DP-31 which is a 5-minute plug and go jobby. can't be that hard

i remember now some other forums where i30 members were comparing their dpchip settings (you can adjust it yourself from 1-10 i think, default is 5) and they found for a stock car around 5-6 is best, 7 or higher and there's too much smoke or something heheh.

[Lakes]

well the dpchip for the i30 is the DP-31 which is a 5-minute plug and go jobby. can't be that hard , but he got good gains and had it on a Dyno, if i can remember it made 127HP @ front wheel but i forgot what TQ, it was the 1.9 TDI not the 2.0. he has had it for two years now just makes it blow more smoke too.
if you can find a link to the sight that people that use the DP Chip on i30's, would be good to read.
Thanks M8