Well it meets the B4 requirement but I see nothing to suggest it's a superior oil. Interestingly, VW504/07 is a low SAPS spec but it doesn't say ACEA C3.

However, what would put me off is the fact that it has no actual approvals at all, just the manufacturer saying "meets or exceeds". It mentions a couple of VW, MB, BMW numbers and then goes on to say... "and others". Why so coy... smells to me.

It's only my opinion but I should also say I'm predisposed to dislike this company. Been off them since they did that stupid stuff with "teflon" all those years ago. And if IRC they still sell the muck in an "additive". It's been well documented that it is useless. I did ask them and they confirmed it is not (was not - about 18 months ago) used in their motor oil.

EDIT: The listed TBN of 6.6 does not meet the current ACEA B4-08 number of greater than 8.0 either. It does say it meets ACEA B4-04 but I haven't gone looking for that number, sufficient to say it is out of current specification. The lower TBN would fit with my suspicion that is is a low(er) ash oil to meet VW 507.

[ElleB]

Just happen to have access to the Nulon5w-30 container and it says on the label:

"Also meets and exceeds other manufacturers requirements Including":

Chrysler, Hyundai, Kia, Land Rover, Nissan, Porsche, Range Rover and Ssangyong

 For the Oil Industry Specifications Is says :
ACEA C2004, C3-04, A3/B4-04, A5/B5-04

Does this help any 

[Shambles]

ElleB pops head over the fence and lobs a grenade

Nice one 

[rustynutz]

Thanks for that, Tony...

So that was on the standard 5W30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil container or the Euro Diesel?

[ElleB]

Just had a chat to the "Techy" at Nulon and compared the B4 and B5 ratings, discussed what was most suitable for the i30 etc.

They recommend the  Full Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil.
European : ACEA C3-08, A5/B5-04 or the B4 version.

Quote from the website:
Nulon Full Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil is designed to provide the ultimate protection for all technically advanced passenger cars and light commercial turbo charged and non-turbo charged diesel engines that require a fuel conserving 5W-30 low viscosity engine oil. It is specifically formulated to provide protection during long oil drain intervals and is safe to use in modern diesel engines fitted with catalysts and particulate filters.

They said to check what the dealers are using as the "service oil" and see if we can go better than that by using a premium oil of OUR choice.  I told him that is exactly the feeling in the owners group and the reason for the research and ongoing discussion. 
             
 They are so similar that we would not notice the difference, so I asked "why make them"  and they said that some manufactures call for B5 specs.

Things like shear values, wear factor, and a heap of others are all equal.
 There is a slight fuel economy advantage in the B5....but that is under testing conditions and would not  necessarily show under road conditions, where there are so many other variables.
 
They said to check what the Hyundai dealers are using as the "service oil", check that oils specs and see if we can go better than that by using a premium oil of OUR choice. The implication being that they might use a "bulk" synthetic oil that does the job!!  
I told him that is exactly the feeling in the owners group and the reason for the research and ongoing discussion.  I also mentioned that the more detail they make available to enthusiasts, the better for the company and acceptance of their lubricants by those enthusiasts.

So, the plot "thickens"..

Just had a chat to the "Techy" at Nulon and compared the B4 and B5 ratings, discussed what was most suitable for the i30 etc.

They recommend the  Full Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil.
European : ACEA C3-08, A5/B5-04 or the B4 version.

Just out of interest, there have been ACEA revisions at 2004, 2008 and 2010. One thing changed in the latest revision is that B4 TBN is raised again to > 10 up from > 8.

This is what I think TBN is: Total Base Number (TBN) is essentially a measure of the (remaining) additives designed to extend the life of the oil by "soaking up" acidic contamination. The TBN will reduce as the oil "wears". It is one of the determinants of "end of life". Starting higher is not necessarilly better, it's where it ends up that counts.

Historically, when the i30 was released we were up to '04, so B4-04 should be the minimum to adhere to. B5 wasn't invented so it's hard to say exactly where we stand with this, however I maintain that B5 is not by definition a B4 spec oil and therefore unless Hyundai change their requirements, B4 must be used. So the above recommendation of a B5 oil is not going to satisfy the warranty - nor me . I say again: do not use B5 oil.

Quote from the website:
Nulon Full Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil is designed to provide the ultimate protection for all technically advanced passenger cars and light commercial turbo charged and non-turbo charged diesel engines that require a fuel conserving 5W-30 low viscosity engine oil. It is specifically formulated to provide protection during long oil drain intervals and is safe to use in modern diesel engines fitted with catalysts and particulate filters.

None of this describes the Oz CRDi requirements. It's a description of a C3 and B5 oil.

They said to check what the dealers are using as the "service oil" and see if we can go better than that by using a premium oil of OUR choice.  I told him that is exactly the feeling in the owners group and the reason for the research and ongoing discussion. 
             
 They are so similar that we would not notice the difference, so I asked "why make them"  and they said that some manufactures call for B5 specs.

Things like shear values, wear factor, and a heap of others are all equal.
 There is a slight fuel economy advantage in the B5....but that is under testing conditions and would not  necessarily show under road conditions, where there are so many other variables.
 
They said to check what the Hyundai dealers are using as the "service oil", check that oils specs and see if we can go better than that by using a premium oil of OUR choice. The implication being that they might use a "bulk" synthetic oil that does the job!!

I was told "Shell Helix Ultra 0w40" was the initial fill which is a genuine B4, not low SAPS and not B5 (the "Extra" is low SAPS C3). The dealers will use a variety of service oils based on what they can get in bulk at the right price. There has been evidence posted here that some of them don't know (or perhaps don't care) what is correct.

I told him that is exactly the feeling in the owners group and the reason for the research and ongoing discussion.  I also mentioned that the more detail they make available to enthusiasts, the better for the company and acceptance of their lubricants by those enthusiasts.

All oil companies only really reveal marketing information; even if some of it is technical it's only ever with a view to sell more oil. These quite reasonable commercial decisions are what frustrates everyone because some so-called proprietary data is always unavailable. They only publish what they think will be a selling point.

So, the plot "thickens"..

Yeah, I got it...

[beerman]

Historically, when the i30 was released we were up to '04, so B4-04 should be the minimum to adhere to. B5 wasn't invented so it's hard to say exactly where we stand with this, however I maintain that B5 is not by definition a B4 spec oil and therefore unless Hyundai change their requirements, B4 must be used. So the above recommendation of a B5 oil is not going to satisfy the warranty - nor me . I say again: do not use B5 oil.

So what do you do in 10 years when B4-04 oil is unavliable? Oil like all technology moves on, you can use oil which exceeds the original specs, as long as you don't fall bellow those specs.

[paul]

So what do you do in 10 years when B4-04 oil is unavailable? Oil like all technology moves on, you can use oil which exceeds the original specs, as long as you don't fall bellow those specs.

In 10 years time IF oil is still available, the way oil prices are rising you wont be able to afford to buy it anyway

Why buy a 1.6 litre engine, chip it, tune it,port polish it etc,  just to squeeze another 20 bhp ?

buy a bigger engine its easier, and doesn't run the risk of invalidating your insurance

[rustynutz]

We seem to be forgetting that Tony posted the info that was on the back of the 5W30 Diesel Formula Long Life bottle...

For the Oil Industry Specifications Is says :
ACEA C2004, C3-04, A3/B4-04, A5/B5-04

So, unless Nulon is telling "porkies", this oil does in fact meet the Hyundai requirement of a B4 oil...Yes?  :-\

I'll probably wander in to my local Autobarn tomorrow to confirm that that is indeed what is on the bottle, and If I have time, I may even check with Hyundai to see what they say as I know they have used this oil.... 

Historically, when the i30 was released we were up to '04, so B4-04 should be the minimum to adhere to. B5 wasn't invented so it's hard to say exactly where we stand with this, however I maintain that B5 is not by definition a B4 spec oil and therefore unless Hyundai change their requirements, B4 must be used. So the above recommendation of a B5 oil is not going to satisfy the warranty - nor me . I say again: do not use B5 oil.

So what do you do in 10 years when B4-04 oil is unavliable? Oil like all technology moves on, you can use oil which exceeds the original specs, as long as you don't fall bellow those specs.

Yes, of course... but the critical thing is just as you say, "don't fall below those specs".

The sequence for improvements is B4-04 -> B4-08 -> B4-10, not B4 -> B5, for any given engine. I expect B5 will be specified only for newer engine designs that complement it. B4 still exists and has not been replaced by B5.

Of course that is not to say that B5, for example, will not be backwards compatible with older engines but I did say this must be sanctioned by Hy... not by us.

We seem to be forgetting that Tony posted the info that was on the back of the 5W30 Diesel Formula Long Life bottle...

For the Oil Industry Specifications Is says :
ACEA C2004, C3-04, A3/B4-04, A5/B5-04

So, unless Nulon is telling "porkies", this oil does in fact meet the Hyundai requirement of a B4 oil...Yes?  :-\

I don't know how to explain this apparent anomoly. It's quite possible that I'm wrong but I can't work out how one can claim meeting both B4 and B5 tests for the same oil.

Anyway, if it meets B4 then who am I to say it's no good if it meets Hy requirements?

I want to correct something I said higher up where I said that in 2004 ACEA B5 was unknown. This is wrong, what was unknown then was the TBN specification which was not tested for in the ACEA 2004 series.

[beerman]

So what do you do in 10 years when B4-04 oil is unavailable? Oil like all technology moves on, you can use oil which exceeds the original specs, as long as you don't fall bellow those specs.

In 10 years time IF oil is still available, the way oil prices are rising you wont be able to afford to buy it anyway

Why buy a 1.6 litre engine, chip it, tune it,port polish it etc,  just to squeeze another 20 bhp ?

buy a bigger engine its easier, and doesn't run the risk of invalidating your insurance

I'm not debating trying to squeeze out 20hp via oil (and I don't believe the claims, or it would be in every engine in the country......). What I was saying is that oil will evolve and get better and old oil formulations will
become redundant and therefore need to be replaced with new formulations....Oil had better be avaliable in 10 years....I aim to still have the I30 in 8 (might even stretch to 10 if I go another 5 year lease on the next car.....whatever that may be).

[rustynutz]

We seem to be forgetting that Tony posted the info that was on the back of the 5W30 Diesel Formula Long Life bottle...

For the Oil Industry Specifications Is says :
ACEA C2004, C3-04, A3/B4-04, A5/B5-04

So, unless Nulon is telling "porkies", this oil does in fact meet the Hyundai requirement of a B4 oil...Yes?  :-\

I don't know how to explain this apparent anomoly. It's quite possible that I'm wrong but I can't work out how one can claim meeting both B4 and B5 tests for the same oil.

Anyway, if it meets B4 then who am I to say it's no good if it meets Hy requirements?

I see Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 also claim to meet ACEA B4 & B5.....   

[paul]

You can compare the oils here and overlay the two/or more
click on the acea on left hand column and choose the b3  and b4 .
or any others



http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/lubrizol/EOACEA2009/RPTOOL2010Dep/rp/pc/index.html

[ElleB]

What an interesting chart , Good work 

All we need now is some explanation of how it is best interpreted, like is more shaded area better or less for instance?  For any 1 oil spec, is it better to have a finger in each part of the "pie"?
Is a dominance in just a few "Pie" areas a good thing?   

 It seems that as the oils move from -04 to -08, then the size of the shaded areas increase...so is that a good thing?
  I trust that those in this debate will have the "good oil" on this and be able to enlighten us all, but I think this chart is very helpful, albeit  lacking explanation for the plebs!!

Maybe a bit more time is required to play around... but other duties await

 I wonder which of the vehicle manufacturers listed in the chart would have oil specs that are close to those of Hyundai and the i30 ?  Maybe that needs some time spent as well..

 

[paul]

An example here on page 17

http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/ICIS2009Presentation.html

[rustynutz]

I fired off an email to Hyundai Australia last night asking if Nulon's 5W30 Diesel Long Life was ok to use without affecting warranty....
After receiving this reply, I'm still none the wiser....

Dear Mr xxxxx,

Hyundai Australia appreciates the time and effort taken in notifying us of your concerns.
You can use this specific oil as long it meets the “ACEA B4” specifications. You should be able to find out it meets the requirements, by reading the information that’s on the bottle.
Thank you for your enquiry and the opportunity to respond.

Regards,

Colin Kim 
Customer Relations Officer
Hyundai Motor Company Australia

 

Because Hy don't have their own special requirements but instead have declared that ACEA B4 meets the needs, then that's all they can say. I think they have made it very easy for everyone. I like it.

On the other hand, the German cars (and others), VW, BMW and MB have specific needs and their own tests need to be met before they will approve an oil. Actual approvals are granted only after the car manufacturer has tested the oil. I believe these tests are expensive so many oil companies use the term "meets MB xxx" to imply that they have had it tested independant of the car manufacturer. I suspect if you asked MB for instance whether they accept one of these externally tested oils they would say not.

Smaller companies like Nulon for instance maybe can't afford approvals. So is a non-approved oil as good as an approved oil? I guess it depends whether they tell the truth or not WRT the testing. I can imagine a little creativeness. From what I read, well respected independant oil companys like Amsoil for instance, may not seek all approvals but instead "guarantee" to support you in any warranty claim. I expect all oil companies are exposed to this if their published specs are subjected to test at law.

As an aside, interpreting the car manufacturers approvals can tell you a lot about the oil.

I note that Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 does not say B4 on the PDS http://www.mobil.com/Australia-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil_1_ESP_Formula_5W-30.aspx although it does elsewhere. http://www.mobil1.com.au/products/product_ESP_5W30.aspx

HTHS, the sticking point for my submission that B4 and B5 were mutually exclusive is claimed to be 3.58 which is vitually at 3.5, the mid-point between B4 and B5 spec. So I'm either being pedantic or near enough is good enough. > 3.5 is outside of B5 spec which is the specification along with Cx that this oil is aimed at along with the German manufacturers approvals of course. I'm sure getting your oil approved for these sorts of cars is good for business.

What an interesting chart , Good work  

All we need now is some explanation of how it is best interpreted, like is more shaded area better or less for instance?  For any 1 oil spec, is it better to have a finger in each part of the "pie"?
Is a dominance in just a few "Pie" areas a good thing?  

 It seems that as the oils move from -04 to -08, then the size of the shaded areas increase...so is that a good thing?

It is an nice way to simplify the numbers and tests into the categories they are aimed at. I like it too.

The size of the coverage is a guide but the actual measure is the point on the calibrated line. Each point will have been arrived at by some method to combine the tests that contribute to the topic graphed. For instance, "After-treatment compatability" will be a relative "quality" figure arrived at from all the Cx tests. How each test is weighted to determine the value is open to the interpretation of the programmer. However the actual value is unimportant, it's a camparo chart not absolute.

It's just a way to interpret ACEA tests into real world values. It's not meant as a good/bad indicator per se. Although having said that, it's interesting to compare the differences between say an B4-04 and 08 value in the same category. ACEA raise the bar each series. The 10 series, although not shown here yet raises it even further. The inference is that a B4-08 spec is better than a B4-04 etc.

[paul]

So, is it a good thing to use an oil that exceeds the manufacturers requirements,
or is it detrimental  ??/ :-\

So, is it a good thing to use an oil that exceeds the manufacturers requirements,
or is it detrimental  ??/ :-\

Good thing. Assuming you mean exceed in the sense that it more than meets the minimum requirements of the tests/standard required by the manufacturer.

Assuming the car needs B4, an oil that is listed as a B4 yet far exceeds the requirements for that rating, will be better than one that just scrapes in. This is I believe the reason for this discussion... how to identify that better oil.

Similarly one that just meets B4-04 will be bettered by an oil that meets B4-10 because 10 is more robust than 04. ACEA don't have a B4+, it's either B4 or not with the exception as I said that the later series have stiffer tests.

An oil that meets B5 (only) is not better than B4 (or even equal by definition).

While you might argue that B5 confers some desirable characteristics such as better fuel economy you have to ask why Hy didn't mandate or even option that. The only thing I see Hy specifying other than B4 is C3 to look after the DPF if you have one.

Of course I'm talking diesels here.

[ElleB]

 Pip Said....".It's just a way to interpret ACEA tests into real world values. It's not meant as a good/bad indicator per se. Although having said that, it's interesting to compare the differences between say an B4-04 and 08 value in the same category. ACEA raise the bar each series. The 10 series, although not shown here yet raises it even further. The inference is that a B4-08 spec is better than a B4-04 etc."

Re the inference that a B4-08 spec will be better that a B4-04 spec, makes one wonder if and when Hy will change their recommendations. One wonders if the engine designers are "driven" by what new oils will allow and achieve OR if they do their own thing and just make their recommendations about the correct oil for their motors.

As Pip said... B4 not B5 seems the go!!

[rustynutz]

Well, I went to my local Autobarn yesterday to check out the back of the Nulon 5W30 Diesel Long Life oil bottle and guess what? No sign of B4.....Apparently the old bottles had it but they have since changed the packaging....

I had a discussion about it all with the Shop owner who insisted that B5 replaced B4 and without going into too much detail, things got quite, shall we say, heated...well, on his part anyway. 
Oh, the owner rang Nulon and explained that a customer was saying B5 hadn't replaced B4 and from what I could gather, the Nulon bloke said it did....

Anyhow, I doubt very much if I'll ever step inside that shop again after the ridicule I copped.... :o

[2i30s]

i would love to have been there. 

[rustynutz]

And I've given you the sanitised version...

[rustynutz]

Different story when I went to my local Hyundai dealer, they were very helpful.....

I was given a list of Hyundai approved oils...
Actually, it was 2 lists....One list featured oils that meet ACEA B4 and the other list were those that meet ACEA C3. Apparently you can use either.....
Nulon wasn't on either list but he said not to read too much into that as Hyundai stuck mainly with the larger companies.

He also told me the oil they use in their servicing was Shell Helix VX 5W30 and I think he said they charged around $14 a litre for it.

While I was there I asked how much a 15,000k service would be, less the oil....He said around the $175 mark..

[2i30s]

 

[ElleB]

  Well, This "grenade" sure has created some fireworks for Rustynutz      Sorry mate!!!

Interesting that the Nulon container does not say B4...I assume then that it said B5?

The container that I quoted from a few posts back is 5W-30 Long Life Diesel and Petrol Engine Oil, Not the straight diesel oil. It  is ACEA C3-04, A3/B4-04. API -CF (diesel spec)and API - SM ( petrol spec)

Re the lists from Hy..... was there so many that you could not "publish them" on the forum...be interesting to see what they are and if there are any that are on 1 list but not the other. I take it that they do not any B5 on their list ? Or B4-08

Re the new and old containers...the one I referred to has AU72 printed on it ,or maybe it is AV 72, right down the bottom on the plastic if that helps.

 What we need is something from Hy... about their feeling re B5  Or for that matter B4-08 if any exists in the retail world.

Keep it up guys,  we will get there in the end .    

.. Re the inference that a B4-08 spec will be better that a B4-04 spec, makes one wonder if and when Hy will change their recommendations.

As I said before, when Hy specified B4 the current ACEA year would have been 04 (or maybe 08 - depending on timing) but AFAIK they only mandated B4 without specifying a year suffix. That says to me that any B4 suits them. As B4 is "improved" with later stiffer testing they would not need to alter their requirements to keep up unless they decided that the earlier oil specification was causing some failure or some such. After all, B4-10 can only be better than B4-04 so why bother making any redundant anouncement.

It is possible that some manuafacturers will change in the future to wanting B5 (or a yet to be formulated B4 with a reduction to the ash produced) to reduce the inlet manifold and valve deposits just now coming to light due to exhaust recirculation (EGR).