HELP --- Car won't start

eye30 · **January 01, 2011, 11:02:14**

Today the car won't start.

The engine turns over but will not fire.

(Same thing happened yesterday when I was out but started at the second try)

I let the Glow plug light go out as I do every time.

The temp is +8C so it's not a cold weather issue.

Battery seems OK as turning engine over.

Now I've read that if 1 glow plug is not working then it won't start so I'm going to check these first.

Fuel --- have half a tank and yes I did put diesel in and not unleaded.
Used my usual petrol station and the receipt says diesel. Just checked it!!!!

Any ideas before I ring the RAC to come out.
(Rather not trouble them if it is something I can sortout easy as I'll loose my callout fee discount when I renew).

Dazzler · **Reply #1: January 01, 2011, 11:07:07**

Could be the immobiliser playing up Lester try locking the car and then unlocking it again (or try your other key if you have it with you..) Good luck..

2i30s · **Reply #2: January 01, 2011, 11:21:35**

does the crdi have an electric fuel pump,or a mechanical pump?

eye30 · **Reply #3: January 01, 2011, 13:02:51**

Ok finally got it started.

Checked fuel in tank (Although I only topped up yesterday), fuel pump making noise when key turned, all wires connected, No loose Glow Plugs in holder, fuses for pump and other odds and sods OK ---- still no joy.

Just about to call the RAC and decided to give Daz's idea of another key.

Put the spare key in the ignition and hey presto kicked first turn.

Put old key in and no life.

Looks as if the key is at fault.

I'll change the battery as it will be the original -- Over 3 years old --- so may effect the transponder signal/immobiliser.

I'll see how it goes over the next few days as not back to work until Tuesday.

I'll call the garage next week just to see what they say.

2i30s · **Reply #4: January 01, 2011, 13:08:11**

Shambles · **Reply #5: January 01, 2011, 13:08:49**

Glad you got it sorted

Quote from: eye30 on January 01, 2011, 13:02:51

I'll change the battery as it will be the original -- Over 3 years old --- so may effect the transponder signal/immobiliser.

I've been alternating between main fob and spare fob. Might be time to change both batteries here too

rustynutz · **Reply #6: January 01, 2011, 13:24:00**

Something to bear in mind too is, If you stick your key fob in your pocket, just be aware that when bending etc you may be accidentally pushing the buttons in.

I found this out when I was pottering around out in the shed and noticed the lights flashing on my i30 and heard the doors locking & unlocking numerous times....
It finally dawned on me what was causing it. Who knows how much this happens when I'm far enough away for the lights not to flash. :-\

2i30s · **Reply #7: January 01, 2011, 13:28:38**

it will re lock automatically after 30 seconds anyway Russ.

rustynutz · **Reply #8: January 01, 2011, 13:40:57**

Yep, but I was more concerned that I'm possibly draining the battery in the fob when I'm away from the car by having the keys in my pocket...

Thanks anyhow...

2i30s · **Reply #9: January 01, 2011, 13:48:16**

Quote from: rustynutz on January 01, 2011, 13:40:57

Yep, but I was more concerned that I'm possibly draining the battery in the fob when I'm away from the car by having the keys in my pocket...

Thanks anyhow...

eye30 · **Reply #10: January 01, 2011, 14:17:05**

Decided to do some detective work on why the car won't start.

Now here is the result:

I have key fobs.

When I turn the ignition on with the spare key an image of a car with a key in it lights up -- Immobiliser indicator -- and the car started.

Now with the key I use all the time this does not appear and hence the car won't start.

Put new battery in the usual key fob and still it does not start the key
So my prognosis (my new word of 2011

) is the usual key fob is knackered!!!

I'll be phoning the garage on Tuesday requesting a replacement key fob under warranty.

Shambles · **Reply #11: January 01, 2011, 14:21:46**

Sounds like it needs pairing back to the ECU, if that's the right word

Lorian · **Reply #12: January 01, 2011, 14:24:51**

I'm pretty sure the immobiliser transponder chip in the keyfob is passive and doesn't rely on the battery in the fob.

2i30s · **Reply #13: January 01, 2011, 14:29:20**

great troubleshooting skills eye30.

eye30 · **Reply #14: January 01, 2011, 14:54:35**

Quote from: 2i30s on January 01, 2011, 14:29:20

great troubleshooting skills eye30.

I knew it had to be something simple!!!!!!!!
Daz gave me an head start by mentioning the the other key once I'd ruled out fuel, fuse and ignition (cheers Daz).

Car was running Ok last time I was in it so as it had to be an "overnight" issue and the temp is +8C , so wasn't cold related.

Also, didn't want to call out the RAC brakedown service if I didn't need too as they penalise you at renewal if you call out.

Surferdude · **Reply #15: January 01, 2011, 20:37:16**

Quote from: Lorian on January 01, 2011, 14:24:51

I'm pretty sure the immobiliser transponder chip in the keyfob is passive and doesn't rely on the battery in the fob.

That's true.

Otherwise there'd be stranded motorists everywhere everytime the battery went flat.

Off topic I know but i had an issue with my Impreza when I went to drive off one day and - no drive.

Our driveway is slightly sloping so i tend to start the car and roll back onto the road in neutral then select 1st and drive off.
So this day I'm stuck in the middle of the road ( a quiet one, fortunately). I pushed the car into the curb (quietly, it was 5am and I was heading off for a surf). And went back to bed, figuring I had a clutch problem.
Lying in bed half an hour later I remembered I'd cleaned the inside of the car the afternoon before. With a dawning suspicion I went back out and found the "High- Low Range selector midway between the two settings.

Dazzler · **Reply #16: January 01, 2011, 20:55:55**

Good result Lester .. Glad my suggestion helped

When we were in Perth WA same thing happened with the Son-in-laws car (a Nissan Pulsar)

eye30 · **Reply #17: January 04, 2011, 18:18:02**

Update.

Calling into the dealers on Friday to have the remote reprogrammed.
Need to take all keys to make sure they are all programmed the same

Seems the remote have 2 chips:
1 for the lock/alarm
and
1 for the immobiliser - that is why the remote still locks the car!

Shambles · **Reply #18: January 04, 2011, 18:28:19**

Ask them how it could have become deprogrammed; that'd be interesting to hear

eye30 · **Reply #19: January 04, 2011, 19:06:33**

Quote from: Shambles on January 04, 2011, 18:28:19

Ask them how it could have become deprogrammed; that'd be interesting to hear

I did but he had no answer.
Mentioned about 2 chips so may be 1 of the chips is US.

I'll ask again once it has been sorted.

I also asked what would the RAC have done if they had been called.
Sort answer - attach gizmo and then as it would have indicated electrical issue they would have advised/tow to dealer.

Whether they would have asked/tried the spare key -- who knows!!!

I only tried the spare because Daz mentioned it and I had nothing to loose as the car was dead anyway.

Lorian · **Reply #20: January 04, 2011, 20:00:17**

The immobiliser chip is a "SMARTRA" chip. As we suspected It doesn't get powered by the battery, instead when the ignition is turned on it gets power by induction from a coil in the steering column.

When powered up it receives a message from, and then replies to, the control unit (or not in this case)

If the right response (an encrypted random number) is not received by the control unit the PCM/ECM light should blink and the fuel system is not enabled.

Hiscan(pro) is required to reprogram the keys with a new code and ALL keys must be done at the same time so they are all in sync.

The communication between the kep chip and controller is done at 125Khz.

The controller can work with up to 8 keys.

I would think the possibility of localized inteference on 125Khz (do you own any other RFID keycards?) or chip failure (as you suspect) would be the most probable causes, so let's keep our fingers crossed for the re-programme.

Does it still not work now, have you tried again?

Dazzler · **Reply #21: January 04, 2011, 20:40:59**

Thanks for the techical info Lorian.. Complex technology just for a key

eye30 · **Reply #22: January 05, 2011, 07:57:51**

Quote from: Lorian on January 04, 2011, 20:00:17

Does it still not work now, have you tried again?

Yes, try each time I get into the car and it still does not work

eye30 · **Reply #23: January 05, 2011, 07:59:03**

Quote from: Lorian on January 04, 2011, 20:00:17

(do you own any other RFID keycards?)

Whatever these are the answer is no

Lorian · **Reply #24: January 05, 2011, 08:02:33**

Door keycards! I get to carry a couple all the time.

I'm guessing the chip is[/] dead then. If I undestand the diagram correctly the chip just gets inserted into the key housing and is not connected to the remote curcuit board at all, so if the have found it has failed it might be possible to just swap the ID chip and reprogramme.

2i30s · **Reply #25: January 05, 2011, 08:10:39**

is it similar to the Sim card in a mobile phone to swap over?

Lorian · **Reply #26: January 05, 2011, 08:40:22**

I dont actually have my keys here to look at, but the diagram seems to show it sat in a pocket in the key. I'm presuming when the key is opened you would see a little pocket in the plastic with this chip sat in it on its own, it's not very big, maybe 5mm long or so.

2i30s · **Reply #27: January 05, 2011, 08:57:05**

eye30 · **Reply #28: January 07, 2011, 17:44:08**

Update:

Took the car to dealers for the key to be reprogrammed.

Need to order a new key as the Chip is faulty.

Dazzler · **Reply #29: January 07, 2011, 21:15:13**

Quote from: eye30 on January 07, 2011, 17:44:08

Update:

Took the car to dealers for the key to be reprogrammed.

Need to order a new key as the Chip is faulty.

Who needs dealers when we have Lorian