[Queen C]

People fom Vic...

why can't anyone hold a lane here? or stay on their side of the road around a bend?

or park properly? or keep safe distances or change lanes safely? or learn when not to use fog lights? or remember to turn their lights on at night? or drive at a proper speed through car parks? or not drive through bike lanes? or give way at roundabouts? etc etc etc

grrrrrrrr

Don't worry, it's not just Victoria lol. And lets not forget to mention the use of indicators. This is one of my pet peeves. 

[Surferdude]

People fom Vic...

why can't anyone hold a lane here? or stay on their side of the road around a bend?

or park properly? or keep safe distances or change lanes safely? or learn when not to use fog lights? or remember to turn their lights on at night? or drive at a proper speed through car parks? or not drive through bike lanes? or give way at roundabouts? etc etc etc

grrrrrrrr

Don't worry, it's not just Victoria lol. And lets not forget to mention the use of indicators. This is one of my pet peeves.

Too true QC (Are you a barrister? ). I live in a suburb which has NO traffic lights; just lots of roundabouts and both locals and visitors seem to have no knowledge of the rules concering the use of indicators.

[Queen C]

Too true QC (Are you a barrister? ). I live in a suburb which has NO traffic lights; just lots of roundabouts and both locals and visitors seem to have no knowledge of the rules concering the use of indicators.

No but my wallet wishes I was and that sounds like an absolute nightmare! I can't understand how difficult it is to use one. Especially as you don't even need to take your hand off the wheel. I guess some people were just lucky to find licenses in the bottom of their cereal boxes instead of toys

[Doggie 1]

Roundabouts are something which are rarely done right. I don't see what's so difficult either.
My youngest daughter can even do it right (she had a good teacher  ) but 90% of drivers just don't know. 

[Surferdude]

Roundabouts are something which are rarely done right. I don't see what's so difficult either.
My youngest daughter can even do it right (she had a good teacher  ) but 90% of drivers just don't know. 

I have to say I prefer the roundabouts to traffic lights. More chance to "play". But then some guys think "playing" includes doing burnouts around the roundabouts. But if we had traffic lights, they'd be dragging off from the stop.

[Dazzler]

I didn't used to like roundabouts but now Devonport has perhaps a 100 I must say they do help traffic flow.. (many of ours are so small you don't get the chance to use the indicators on exiting)

While on this sort of topic I thought I'd comment on the duration of traffic lights...

It is a real shock and quite frustrating how much longer traffic lights stay on red in the big mainland cities compared with here in Tassie.. (probably 3 times as long) you don't think of these things and how they impact on you until you experience it yourself..

[Doggie 1]

You can still signal your exit on a small roundabout. 
Traffic lights can be very time-consuming.
Some seem to be programmed to change when triggered and others are obviously on a time cycle.

[Queen C]

I'm a freak when it comes to indicating, I'll use it all the time. I still picture my instructor all those years ago barking instructions from the passenger seat that it's drilled into my head. As for lights, they can be a huge pain too. Especially when its peak hour and traffic is built up but yet the lights still only let about 3 cars through before it changes orange.

[Dazzler]

You can still signal your exit on a small roundabout. 

I'm talking really small  I'll have to try and find a picture ...

[Surferdude]

You can still signal your exit on a small roundabout. 
Traffic lights can be very time-consuming.
Some seem to be programmed to change when triggered and others are obviously on a time cycle.

Trouble is some of them are so small that in order to signal your intention to exit, you are putting the indicators on BEFORE the previous exit, which is dangerously confusing.
Traffic lights are, like you say, either pre-programmed or triggered. But quite often the timed ones change at night to triggering on the side roads.

[Dazzler]

Trouble is some of them are so small that in order to signal your intention to exit, you are putting the indicators on BEFORE the previous exit, which is dangerously confusing.

thanks Trev.. "That is what I'm talkin' about.." 

[eye30]

I'm a freak when it comes to indicating, 

With lights or hands 

[mjt57]

Amazing thread - it took all of one message to go way off topic...

For the non-Aussies, we have what are called the Australian Road Rules, formulated by a federal transport department. It has reps from each of the states/territories and together they nut out the ARRs which would be good for all states/territories.

However, that's as far as it gets. The ARRs are non-binding on any of the states. Whilst they may adopt them in general, too many of them vary.

For example, in NSW I understand that U-turns are illegal unless signposted. Here in Vic, the opposite is true. (personally, I think the NSW idea is better, particularly for us motorcyclists who've been collected by dickwads doing U-turns, whether legal or otherwise).

If the federal government was able to, the best idea would be to have nationwide laws. So, Melbourne has unique right turn laws that deal with trams, so what? The same laws can apply in any state or city whether or not they have trams. if they do get trams then the rules are already in place. Otherwise, they can be ignored.

[rustynutz]

Amazing thread - it took all of one message to go way off topic...

Isn't the topic road rules? 

[rustynutz]

For example, in NSW I understand that U-turns are illegal unless signposted. Here in Vic, the opposite is true. (personally, I think the NSW idea is better, particularly for us motorcyclists who've been collected by dickwads doing U-turns, whether legal or otherwise).

As far as NSW goes, I think you'll find that's the case only at intersections with traffic lights...in other cases you can pretty much chuck a U turn wherever if there's no signs saying you can't.   

Personally, I like the Victorian setup as you can perform a U turn just about anywhere unless there's a sign (or a road rule) telling you otherwise...

[Doggie 1]

In W.A. you can execute a U-turn almost anywhere when it is safe and expedient to do so.
Exceptions are at traffic lights (unless there is sign stating it is allowed) and on one-way streets (of course).
And if you have a crash whilst making a U-turn it is deemed to have not been safe and expedient to do so. 

[Queen C]

I'm a freak when it comes to indicating, 

With lights or hands 

With my hands of course! ... there's another way to indicate? :O

[Doggie 1]

I'm a freak when it comes to indicating, 

With lights or hands 

With my hands of course! ... there's another way to indicate? :O

Spoken like a true Italian 

[mjt57]

Personally, I like the Victorian setup as you can perform a U turn just about anywhere unless there's a sign (or a road rule) telling you otherwise...

I don't. I think that they're dangerous and too many people don't understand the basics of U turns, particularly the minor aspect that you shall give way to ALL traffic when doing them.

[rustynutz]

So the problem really isn't the road rule as such but people's lack of knowledge of the rules and their casual attitude to looking properly before performing one.... 

[mjt57]

So the problem really isn't the road rule as such but people's lack of knowledge of the rules and their casual attitude to looking properly before performing one.... 

Well, to me that makes it a bad rule and therefore, a dangerous one, regardless of how it's treated by the bad drivers who can't competantly perform one.

So, for me, at least, the better idea would be to adopt the NSW rule, but to widen the scope of it to include all intersections, unless sign-posted otherwise.

Or, perhaps a TAC [1] campaign aimed at educating road users of the various road rules which are routinely linked to crashes when they are broken.






[1] TAC - Transport Accident Commission, Victoria's government owned "third party" insurance provider which drives a lot of road safety initiatives, given that it is a no fault, wholly funded insurance scheme to cover all costs arising from a crash where people are hurt or killed.

[rustynutz]

Well, to me that makes it a bad rule and therefore, a dangerous one, regardless of how it's treated by the bad drivers who can't competantly perform one.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.......

Btw, I'd like to compare stats between the 2.... 

[mjt57]

Btw, I'd like to compare stats between the 2....

I'm looking.

So far I've found this:

http://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/general/bikes-and-riding/10568/

8 September 2009. November brings changes to road rules in Victoria, with new requirements for U-turns, navigation devices and mobile phone use which will bring the State into line with nationally-set standards.

According to Roads Minister Tim Pallas the changes included preventing overtaking and U-turns over single unbroken dividing lines. Motorists will be able to perform a U-turn or overtake across broken dividing lines, or where there a no centre lines at all.

“U-turns alone have caused 19 deaths and 654 serious between 2004 and 2008. There were 1524 U-turn crashes in Victoria in that period. These changes will therefore have a significant impact towards improving safety on our roads,” Mr Pallas said.

A report from a SA university. Note, only Victoria permits U Turns at traffic light intersections. Elsewhere, they're permited only if a sign says so.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcasr.adelaide.edu.au%2Fcasrpubfile%2F17%2FCASR017.pdf&ei=h7ApUKiRH62hiAfS2oHIBA&usg=AFQjCNHQm56hK7kGbOAZ90vx2UqZf93-TA

I don't have the time to conduct proper research. But, we (Victoria) are out of step with the rest of the country and that should not be the case.

During my limited research I found discussions on other forums where, for example, Victorians visiting in QLD were standout in that they ignored the "no U turn" rule because there were no signposts banning them.

The whole idea of having a National Transport Commission in Can'tberra set up to formulate road safety policies and the ARRs is to ensure a safe road network based on conformity of rules and standards.

Clearly that is not happening.

[rustynutz]

Btw, I'd like to compare stats between the 2....

I'm looking.

So far I've found this:

http://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/general/bikes-and-riding/10568/

8 September 2009. November brings changes to road rules in Victoria, with new requirements for U-turns, navigation devices and mobile phone use which will bring the State into line with nationally-set standards.

According to Roads Minister Tim Pallas the changes included preventing overtaking and U-turns over single unbroken dividing lines. Motorists will be able to perform a U-turn or overtake across broken dividing lines, or where there a no centre lines at all.

“U-turns alone have caused 19 deaths and 654 serious between 2004 and 2008. There were 1524 U-turn crashes in Victoria in that period. These changes will therefore have a significant impact towards improving safety on our roads,” Mr Pallas said.

A report from a SA university. Note, only Victoria permits U Turns at traffic light intersections. Elsewhere, they're permited only if a sign says so.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CFgQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcasr.adelaide.edu.au%2Fcasrpubfile%2F17%2FCASR017.pdf&ei=h7ApUKiRH62hiAfS2oHIBA&usg=AFQjCNHQm56hK7kGbOAZ90vx2UqZf93-TA

I don't have the time to conduct proper research. But, we (Victoria) are out of step with the rest of the country and that should not be the case.

During my limited research I found discussions on other forums where, for example, Victorians visiting in QLD were standout in that they ignored the "no U turn" rule because there were no signposts banning them.

The whole idea of having a National Transport Commission in Can'tberra set up to formulate road safety policies and the ARRs is to ensure a safe road network based on conformity of rules and standards.

Clearly that is not happening.

Interesting that one of the first things I read in that University report is:

We have located no research that indicates that a “U-turn permitted” treatment would be irresponsible.

While I can see where you're coming from, nothing I've seen so far points to the actual Victorian rule being dangerous.....To me the only issue is the difference between the States and the confusion it's causing.

While having uniform road rules would be mostly a good thing, us Victorian's have seen the problems changing our rules to the same as other States can cause, for example being able to overtake over a single unbroken line, which was allowed up until fairly recently but is now illegal.....
Roads that were perfectly safe for passing have now become a right royal pain in the bum as drivers/riders are now forced to play follow the leader for kilometre after kilometre, this is particularly bad driving the "Dandenongs" as many of the roads there have single unbroken lines..... 

[mjt57]

The new no passing unbroken rule, I think, was aimed squarely at motorcyclists who frequent the Black Spur and other similar roads in the Dandenongs.

Short of making the roads there conform with standard line markings, it was easier and cheaper to simply enforce a blanket ban on overtaking.

My brother in law got pinged by the camo cops on the Black Spur last year because he wanted to get past an errant driver doing about 50 kays where it was safe to do 80. The guy was swerving a bit as he was taking photos with his phone's camera.

The cops didn't ping him, despite the obviously dangerous or careless driving, but rather, the BiL because he passed on a continuous line, which until the rule was changed, would've been a perfectly safe and legal maneuvre.

[rustynutz]

The new no passing unbroken rule, I think, was aimed squarely at motorcyclists who frequent the Black Spur and other similar roads in the Dandenongs.

I have no doubt you're correct Martin.....

But I'm sure they'll tell us it was only to bring us into line with other States....

[Lester]

When the Australian Road Rules (ARR's) came into being in the mid 90's, it was assumed that all States would take ALL the rules on boards.  WRONG..Victoria wanted to keep their U turns at traffic lights, Hook turns etc, other States also wanted to keep parts of their old laws.  So it was just a stuff up, as it still us.

In NSW we should have kept ye olde Motor Traffic Act.  Far simpler.

[rustynutz]

I really haven't got a lot of time for the "clowns" that think up some of the road rule changes for the Australian Road Rules, especially after the debacle when they tried to introduce rule 151A to stop lane splitting by motorcyclists....
While some alterations do make sense, you gotta wonder at times whether it's a case of fiddling just to justify their positions... 

[Phil №❶]

While some alterations do make sense, you gotta wonder at times whether it's a case of fiddling just to justify their positions... 

Exactly right, they're a bunch of w****rs 

[Doggie 1]

While some alterations do make sense, you gotta wonder at times whether it's a case of fiddling just to justify their positions... 

Exactly right, they're a bunch of w****rs 

Writers?