Not starting on first turn of key

ElleB · **March 19, 2016, 11:42:39**

Administrator Comment Split from

Hyundai i30 not starting on first turn of key

Hi Guys..... must be the flavour of the month..
We have 143Km up on the '09 CW and in the last month, 3 times my wife has tried to start the car...it cranks but does not fire. All the other times including my driving it has not happened at all.

Asked my local "mecknic" and he said to turn it on till the glow plug light goes out... then do it again and again and again, then try and start it, theory being that the temp in the cylinder will increase with a couple of applications of the glow plug.

Well that worked.

2 times since then she has had the same issue... did the same thing and "no go"... sat there for 5 min ( no doubt pondering her next move and if she was gamed to call me)... and tried again and it fired up.
No smoke... upon start up..

So I am at a loss... glow plugs or lower battery voltage ( still the original battery)....How come these things always happen to the Missus ?

Thoughts?

Phil №❶ · **Reply #1: March 19, 2016, 11:49:37**

Maybe she's just unlucky. I assume when you start the car, the engine is as cold as it is, for the missus. Make sure she is NOT touching the throttle while cranking, it is not required for fuel injected cars.

Multiple glow plug heats will rip into the battery capacity fairly hard and shorten it's life, so probably not the best solution to your problem. Get the battery and glow plugs tested, would be my advice.

ElleB · **Reply #2: March 19, 2016, 11:58:31**

Thanks Phil... will check on the throttle bit....

All 3 times have been at the end of the day ( like 4pm) and we have had some hot ones in the last month..never in the morning .

Was planning to get a battery check.. but as I say,, in the mornings it never seems "lazy"...touch wood !!

Interesting to see what the others say...
Cheers

eye30 · **Reply #3: March 19, 2016, 12:07:16**

Quote from: ElleB on March 19, 2016, 11:58:31

All 3 times have been at the end of the day ( like 4pm) and we have had some hot ones in the last month..never in the morning .

Wonder if fuel related.

Given the heat whether fuel evaporates or even a blocked filter.

ElleB · **Reply #4: March 19, 2016, 12:11:19**

Diesel......should be an easy start on a hot day.... like it has been parked for 8 hrs... going home after school.

Re the filter... yes it has been changed and there is no indication of any fuel starvation once she ( the car) is fired up !!!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Dazzler · **Reply #5: March 19, 2016, 12:21:42**

Hi Tony, I would suspect the battery, got to be close to end of life I reckon. Not sure why problem at 4pm rather than early morning though.

ElleB · **Reply #6: March 19, 2016, 12:28:06**

Yes Dazz ...bit of a mystery !!

Lets see what the "jury" thinks.... may not get a unanimous decision though..

ibrokeit · **Reply #7: March 19, 2016, 13:30:59**

Quote from: Dazzler on March 19, 2016, 12:21:42

Hi Tony, I would suspect the battery, got to be close to end of life I reckon. Not sure why problem at 4pm rather than early morning though.

TL;DR - Get the battery checked ASAP, highly likely it is on it's way out. Heat is making it more apparent - hence appears in afternoon not mornings. So

I agree it about the battery - and the afternoon not firing is very likely symptomatic of that. Batteries don't like being too hot...

Heat, in the long term, decreases battery capacity (i.e. the amount of work/amperage they can do) - in the short term heat does increase capacity a little. This is because the chemical reaction that makes the electricity can occur quicker/easier (like any chemical reaction will when heat is added) - however it also means the chemical reactions that reduce capacity (which will occur in all batteries in use/charged-constantly or not) occur quicker/easier too. And, for the most part, when capacity is lost it can't be regained. Remember a battery is 'just' a big chemical reaction(s).

A battery under load with capacity problems is going to have a greater voltage drop than normal likely causing other things not to happen (like cranking). However a battery under load, then not under load, is going to bounce back to a bit more than the levels it was (due to chemical reactions due to the loading/no-load cycle) at before the first attempt at starting this iteration, and so starts second/third, etc. time of being under-load.

Most 'no maintenance' (or 'sealed') vehicle batteries are Valve Regulated Lead Acid (VRLA) - a form of Sealed Lead Acid but different to the smaller SLA batteries such as used in home alarms; home/small business UPS; etc. etc.. General rule for VRLA is every 8^OC rise in temperature decreases stated battery life by half (of course this isn't instant - the temperature would need to be constantly hot for a little while... like the long hot days and nights we have been having on the east coast; and of course temperature cycles won't help much either) - so if rated for 10 years of life at 25^OC then at 33^OC it is 5 years, etc..

As you have the OEM original battery - going on 6 years now - I would not be surprised at all that battery is, per Dazz, close to end of life (e.g. low capacity). I would get a battery check as I am pretty sure it will be the cause of the problem.

ElleB · **Reply #8: March 19, 2016, 18:53:15**

Great explanation ibrokeit....I am always amazed at the variety of "niche" knowledge that exists within our fraternity.

One usually associates the hard start with cold mornings and traditionally that IS when batteries are likely to show that they are on their way out..so I and hopefully others that read the post will be better informed as a result.

I will have a battery check done and report back ASAP.

Thanks to all contributors..

ibrokeit · **Reply #9: March 19, 2016, 21:19:35**

Thank you.

Of course it might turn out not to be - hard to know for certain as there are a number of variables and chemical reactions that happen in different states (discharge - loaded or no load; charging; etc) & the reactions that happen in one state will occur in different proportions due to health/age, etc.

I agree usually the cold start is the indication. I am pretty sure it won't be the glow-plugs as they simply heat the engine block/cylinders to make detonation easier... so there should be more problem starting in the mornings not less if it was them.

Though if I remember correctly you can get OEM sets relatively cheaply from ebay. If the glowplugs have never been changed and you do it yourself - it might be a useful and cheap preventative maintenance action to do so at somepoint in the future. But it might be just as easy to take action when it/if it happens. Others can probably advise better on that.

Phil №❶ · **Reply #10: March 19, 2016, 23:33:15**

Diesel fuel will NOT evaporate at ambient temperatures, as suggested earlier.

ibrokeit · **Reply #11: March 20, 2016, 11:37:58**

Quote from: Phil №❶ on March 19, 2016, 23:33:15

Diesel fuel will NOT evaporate at ambient temperatures, as suggested earlier.

Yup! Edit: Oh - I see to what you are referring to now...

Anyway... I am taking the fact the O/P has said it starts fine in the morning, and with no smoke when it does have the problem, as indication the glow-plugs are within operational parameters.

Talking about glow-plugs one of the vintage tractors my parents own, well now my Mum owns, is a single-banger diesel - the glow-plug for that is a lighted paper taper.

ElleB · **Reply #12: March 20, 2016, 11:52:32**

Sounds like a Lanz Bulldog?

ibrokeit · **Reply #13: March 20, 2016, 12:48:44**

Quote from: ElleB on March 20, 2016, 11:52:32

Sounds like a Lanz Bulldog?

Nope - Field Marshall - pretty sure it is Series I (so 1945-1947 model). Or more likely correctly a Track Marshall - looks quite similar to this (except the body needs a lot of work and painting)

Track Marshall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - But it is hard to be certain as I am sure the badging is Field Marshall (and of course name plates for engine/gear-box don't necessarily reflect the branding used for the tractor and model). According to Wikipedia in theory all tracked Field Marshalls were produced under 'Fowler' brand name - so it would be a Fowler VF - but that may have been only for one region.

Or it could be the paneling was replaced at some point on the one we have. Anyway has absolutely no electrics - we use a taper (though we also have an electric glow-plug for it - but that requires an external battery, etc.). Unfortunately we don't have the original crank handle - instead we have a tyre rim welded to some iron/steel pipe which has dirty great bolt welded to it that fits where the crank handle would... we wrap rope around the rim and then use a ute/car to pull the rope (rather slowly but it is enough).

ElleB · **Reply #14: March 20, 2016, 21:52:30**

Cool..... every year here in the Hawkesbury Area in Sydneys west, they have a huge antique vehicle show... unbelievable the stuff that come out of the woodwork.
I will see if I can find some contact names and you maybe able to approach them and see if there are any such tractors on the register.

I have a 1935 Dodge... 2 spares in the mud guards style... so have always has an interest in the "old stuff", since I was a kid.

Cheers

Phil №❶ · **Reply #15: March 21, 2016, 01:45:52**

That's a nice Dodge, what can you tell us about it

ElleB · **Reply #16: March 21, 2016, 01:50:21**

Heaps.... but not now !! what do you want to know.... had it since 1983... not looking like that though ..

Phil №❶ · **Reply #17: March 21, 2016, 01:51:54**

How you acquired it and what you had or did to it. It looks very nice.

The Gonz · **Reply #18: March 21, 2016, 02:04:28**

Screams Birdwood to me. Shotgun!

Phil №❶ · **Reply #19: March 21, 2016, 02:30:33**

Shambles · **Reply #20: March 21, 2016, 08:18:33**

ibrokeit · **Reply #21: March 21, 2016, 12:05:10**

Quote from: Shambles on March 21, 2016, 08:18:33

Was just thinking the Dodge might need it's own topic all to itself. Nice Dodge BTW!

ElleB · **Reply #22: March 21, 2016, 12:13:35**

Thanks for the interest guys...

That's is one downside of a club/forum that is specific to a certain model....they all look the same, bar the colour

Cant imagine an i30 with side-mount spare wheels!!

For those interested, I will see if I can put something together... be it in a PM or own thread if the "boss" allows it.

Looks like the comments re the starting issues have run dry or everyone feels that we have sorted the issue, will advise.

ibrokeit · **Reply #23: March 21, 2016, 12:25:26**

Probably you could start a thread on the other motors board here -

MEMBERS OTHER MOTORS

Regarding starting issues - not sure... maybe waiting to hear back on testing of the various theories.

ElleB · **Reply #24: March 21, 2016, 12:32:34**

OK that is "new territory" for me.... when I have a moment I will have a look see... Thanks for the tip

Dazzler · **Reply #25: March 22, 2016, 04:08:32**

Good luck with the problem Tony. Yes, we would like a thread in that section about your other car...

ElleB · **Reply #26: April 05, 2016, 08:56:11**

HI Guys,
Thought I should do an quick update on Elle B.

Had the battery tested and it was rating at 430, when it should be 620.
So, as was suggested the cranking speed was down as the battery was only about 2/3 capacity.

New battery and so far so good..

Just as an aside I am going to try it in the Dodge ( yes it is converted to 12v, but still runs the 6V starter motor...no probs..) it has a lot less compression 7.5:1.... so it still should flick over fast enough to start... hopefully.

Meanwhile I have all my "hobby" batteries rotated on a weekly basis using my Genius 3.5 charger.. keep them happy and cycling.

Happy Motoring

Dazzler · **Reply #27: April 05, 2016, 09:33:37**

Thanks for the update Tony.

ibrokeit · **Reply #28: April 05, 2016, 16:40:08**

Good to see the problem seems to be fixed - of course a little bit of time will give more certainty to you that it was.