[Dazzler]

Hi John..

I'd have to agree    I thought our CRDi had more than adequate performance for what it was and so never bit the bullet and got it chipped or added a tuning box..

The economy gauge on our Hybrid does act as a reminder that lifting off the accelerator just slightly at times makes quite a difference to the economy but the trip computer in the CRDi SLX kind of taught me that in the first place 

@Lakes

Lets make a test with code name "tuning and economy" 

Any ideas how? I think it will be fun

Since what is said about better economy people dont believe lets make a video?

Lets agree on say 90km/h speed we are testing , still within law? ok?

Driver chooses gear he likes, gets to that speed, flat road, resets board computer and first few figures will be consumption on that speed? Then post video here.

Do you agree?

Anyone thinks BC can be easily manipulated to show lower figures?

[Dazzler]

Good idea Xamaxy .. except Lakes and others don't have a trip computer (base model) 

I can understand (in some situations) getting better economy by chiptuning and tuningbox as less throttle needed for same performance BUT if I had one of those it would be so I could take advantage of the EXTRA performance and would for me (I'm assuming) result in worse economy...

[Lakes]

@Lakes

Lets make a test with code name "tuning and economy" 

Any ideas how? I think it will be fun

Since what is said about better economy people dont believe lets make a video?

Lets agree on say 90km/h speed we are testing , still within law? ok?

Driver chooses gear he likes, gets to that speed, flat road, resets board computer and first few figures will be consumption on that speed? Then post video here.

Do you agree?

Anyone thinks BC can be easily manipulated to show lower figures?

could fill both cars together then drive a distance at same  speed then refill both checking b4 & after they were both full to top . then see difference as this way test is under same conditions same road surface same speed. could even arange to weigh both cars.

I thought of that too and that would be absolutely the best way, only problem is you need to have 2 people from forum close, one with tuning box/chip, and the other without.

Tho, if we "agree" a 50km or 100km trip with pretty much flat-traffic free road like highway could give also quite accurate results and everyone can do it. But then again we go to "believe in someone words" hehehe

[Lakes]

Your right, i think you have a 2.0L CRDi? i would love to drive one see difference in performance.
if you fill your tank right to the very top. remove tunning box then drive till the fuel warning light comes on check the trip k's for how far you got then put the tuning box on fill tank to very top again and drive the  same route @ same speeds see what distance you go b4 the fuel light comes on. I know this would be a big ask and very borring for you driving without tunning box for a full tank of fuel. so i could not expect you to do it. but this would give me and others a good idea on what gaine we could expect in fuel economy. as i pay no attention at all to a trip computer read out picture. for the simple reason that i have been able to get a trip computer to read out very low fuel useage numbers from a large V8 from just driving down hills turning the trip computer off first, so pic's of the trip computer reading very low fuel numbers don't impress me. what impress'e ,me most is the distance you can travel on one full tank of fuel. as this is the real thing, this is how far you can go on how much$.
 i  have every recept for fuel since my Betsy was new. i'll have to add up what she cost for fuel to get to 100,000k & how many litres she drank. will be interesting.
if you can do that one full tank no tunning box test then one full tank with tuning box test that would be interesting too.
Cheers

Excellent suggestion!! I'm scared that i didn't thought of it 

I'll try to arrange that deal with my tuning dude (i don't do mechanic stuff since i tend to f**k things up hehehe).

Yes, i have 2.0lcrdi with 170KS and ~400Nm.
With 140hp and 304Nm as factory fitted i couldn't get it below 5.2l average driving the same open road route to job (360km) like NEVER! I was getting pissed since they say 4.4l in technical data for open road.
When fitted with tuning box i could easily achieve 4,2-4,6l average. In general every driving condition went 0,5-1l down.

[birdhouse]

Very interesting if you could do that, but isn't it a lot of kilometres, it will never be perfect though.

so now the question is, which box, are they all the same, I suppose the 2.0 one you have will be different to the 1.6.

[neoto]

...
When fitted with tuning box i could easily achieve 4,2-4,6l average. In general every driving condition went 0,5-1l down.

One question, though - these figures a from a trip computer? If I understand, how these tuning boxes work, then the trip computer must show lower values by default.


When I ordered my i30cw CRDi (90HP), no HP models (116 HP) were available and would have to wait for one to arrive... And 90 HP is good for sustained speeds, but getting to them takes eternity... I just can't get the thought out of my head of having 116+ HP, while keeping the same economy. But I just can't believe that fitting tuning box to a diesel engine doesn't shorten its lifespan... Btw, I try to drive it 'green' and have come to 4.7 l/100km (mainly on motorways, ~115 km/h on GPS).

[Dazzler]

When I ordered my i30cw CRDi (90HP), no HP models (116 HP) were available and would have to wait for one to arrive... And 90 HP is good for sustained speeds, but getting to them takes eternity... I just can't get the thought out of my head of having 116+ HP, while keeping the same economy. But I just can't believe that fitting tuning box to a diesel engine doesn't shorten its lifespan... Btw, I try to drive it 'green' and have come to 4.7 l/100km (mainly on motorways, ~115 km/h on GPS).

I recommend you PM "Accim" he is a good fella and pretty sure he has a 90HP chipped to around 115HP or so with no probs after lots of miles 

@neoto

Please explain your logic in "after tuning box trip comp must show lower values"? I dont understand how could that be?

I30's trip comp is 100% accurate if you do open road trip.  When in city driving conditions it lies for me for about 0,7l, so when in finishes tank with 5,8 average, real is 6,5l and filling it up and doing the math shows that too.

Figures i stated 4,2l are both from computer and refilling. Friend also didnt believe me, so we filled tank full, did the trip of 360km like i said, and straight to the gas station again, and it was 4,196l.
I have every single gas tank i made since i bought my car. litres tanked divided with km's made/100.

Last 3 entries:

-48.66l      -815km               -average    5.97l  CAI  -city
-50.18l      -732km               -average    6.85l  CAI  -city
-51.03l      -778km               -average    6.56l  CAI  -city

@birdhouse
Results will hardly be perfect! Not to mention just how important is fuel, i bet australian diesel is 100 times better then my countries so...
The test would just be used to generally show that there really IS better economy after tuning.

EDIT:
nice diagram that says all

http://www.chipexpress.com/products/980/  -click on better economy

[neoto]

Please explain your logic in "after tuning box trip comp must show lower values"? I dont understand how could that be?

Tuning box is connected to the common-rail fuel pressure sensor. It makes ECU believe that the common-rail fuel pressure is lower than it really is, so the ECU increases the pressure, hence increasing the amount of fuel being delivered in each injector cycle. This results in more real fuel quantity per same injector cycle duration. ECU just can't measure the right amount of fuel. Therefore, I'm really surprised to see that the trip computer is showing the correct values...

[AlanHo]

I have been watching this thread with interest because I have had experience of fitting a tuning box to a diesel - albeit an Audi A3 2.0 litre Sportback fitted with the DSG gearbox.
For some years I have always kept a spreadsheet of my cars fuel consumption - recording the odometer reading at every fill - and I always brim the tank. Hence I have a complete record of the fuel consumption during the 3.5 years I owned the car.

Hence I will summarise my experience.

I bought the car new in October 2004 and fitted a tuning box in October 2006. During this period (no tuning box) the car covered 21768 miles and used 462.61 gallons of diesel giving an average fuel consumption of 47.05 mpg (6.0 l/100km)

From Oct 2006 I used the tuning box continuously (only removing it when the car went for a service) until Sept 2007 when I decided to advertise the car for sale. During this period it was definitely more lively and I persuaded myself (after spending £425 on the box including fitting and a dyno check) that it ran smoother - but I was never really convinced. I soon noticed however that whilst the computer fuel consumption figures had not changed much - my brim to brim accurate calculations showed a marked drop in fuel economy.

With the tuning box fitted the car covered 10,181 miles and used 231.82 gallons of diesel giving an average fuel consumption of 43.9 mpg (6.4 l/100km).
I calculated that over this period fuel had cost me an extra £85 compared with the non-tuning box performance.

After I removed the tuning box the car reverted to its previous fuel consumption and I sold it 7 months later. During this period (whist I tried to find a buyer prepared to meet my price), the car covered 4485 miles and used 94.61 gallons giving an average fuel consumption of 47.41 mpg (6.0 l/100km).

After this experience I have concluded that a tuning box can enhance power and acceleration but at the cost of increased fuel consumption. I was never really convinced that the car was smoother or responded to throttle input quicker - but I liked to think it was to justify the expense.

It is quite clear that my Audi used 7.9% more fuel with the tuning box than without it - despite the computer showing no indication that fuel consumption had risen. My driving style remained constant, my journeys were similar, the reference periods were over a long period and many miles were covered garnering the information. I had not thought it through before - but the explanation by neoto on how the computer is fooled is perhaps the clue.

I have no doubt that there will be those who are so besotted by the idea that the tuning box is the magic bullet to get improved performance with little or no effect on fuel efficiency, that it will be pointed out that my experience is untypical of current products.  Frankly I don't believe it, unless someone here can provide similar comparison information with their car gathered over a long period to prove that I am wrong.


As an aside - my 9 month old i30 1.6 CRDi has covered 6718 miles from new and used 138.7 gallons of fuel giving an average overall consumption of 48.4 mpg (5.8 l/100km). I am disappointed that it falls well short of the Hyundai official figures, the experience of other claims on this forum and is not that much better than my old Audi.

I would be happy to provide the excel file - but I have no idea how to post it here. It took me long enough to unravel the mysteries of hosting pictures on Photobucket - but it appears it cannot host data files. If one of our kind experts can let me know how to do it - or even better, do it for me - I would be obliged. PM me with instructions so I can subsequently pretend I worked it out for myself.....

One question before i answer it. How much HP before and after tuning on Audi a3 2.0 litre sportback?

[AlanHo]

I was given the dyno print out by the tuning company - but I am not able to find it. We moved house a few months back and I cleared out a lot of old records. I guess the dyno stuff went in the bin then.

From memory the standard car was about 140 HP - with the tuning box it peaked at about 160 BHP. Torgue went from approx 235 lb/ft to about 260. The tuning box was fitted by a local company which specialised in diesels - VW Group in particular. They claimed better performance and improved economy - I fell for the promises. They went out of business 2 years ago - serves them right.

@neoto

Most of it true till the part that is injected more fuel. Chip controls differently how long and when is injector "opened".

If you bring more fuel into diesel you release "insane" HP at the end of story , for economy tuning you only need available fuel to burn better or later or whatever is good mechanical term


@AlanHo

I see now why are you against tuning. Your experience wasnt good. You said it yourself, they went down few years later meaning perhaps like you said they did a bad job. And your tuning was perhaps one of those jobs

Car being smoother and better responding is for the most part job of the intake and exhaust. After i changed mine i got OMG difference. I wrote about it in my cars topic.

Question for you : how come you average like me with that much HP difference?

1 thing that could end our little dilema once and for all is that you get tuning box or chip for i30, even borrowed from someone or just for the test like mine dude installed me one and said try it out if you like it , buy it.


PS
I dont understand why many owners of tuning boxes here on forum dont input their observations on that subject? I mean, first thing you notice is if car goes better and how much km you croosed with full tank.

[AlanHo]

Whilst I am not too happy about the fuel consumption on my i30 - I am quite satisfied with the power and overall performance. I no longer drive like a maniac and no longer take corners on two wheels and a door handle. I am quite happy to cruise sedately at the prescribed speed limits and no longer regard it as a drag race challenge when a BMW stops alongside me at the traffic lights.

When the tuning box was fitted to the Audi - I could easily smoke the front wheels and was first across the lights most times.  But why? - all it did was to get me to the next traffic jam quicker - my overall journey times were rarely quicker and it was costing me more for fuel.

Once bitten, twice shy - with third party tuning as far as I am concerned. Hence there is no way that I would resort to chip reprogramming or fitting a tuning box on the i30. Having fallen victim to a snake oil salesman with the Audi tuning box - I would not use one again under any circumstances - not even if it were free.

There are a few old sayings that fit the bill - "There is no such thing as a free lunch" - "You don't get anything for nothing" - "Energy cannot be created or destroyed" - etc.

I now firmly believe that with a modern highly tuned car - third party tuning to achieve significantly more performance comes at a cost - one being extra fuel to provide the extra power needed for the extra performance and the extra bragging rights.  I'm well past that now.

Hehehe then this is it, i'll no longer write about that subject.

I think we really didnt help anyone hehe.
Arguments both pro and against were made, and really anyone that even thinks about tuning could find that on the internet hat we said

So bottom line is like me and you did someone else will "try" and then learn all first hand 

[Dazzler]

Hehehe then this is it, i'll no longer write about that subject.

I think we really didnt help anyone hehe.
Arguments both pro and against were made, and really anyone that even thinks about tuning could find that on the internet hat we said

So bottom line is like me and you did someone else will "try" and then learn all first hand 

On any other Forum this discussion would have included quite a bit of Flaming     

Well done guys (agree to disagree  ) for the record I believe both of you 

Like Alan I no longer drive like a mad thing (I used to) and so did not bother with any performance mods on our CRDi but on the other hand I do believe some members (including you Xamaxy) who say they have got performance gains and some fuel savings as well...

[birdhouse]

I'm just a little confused why we are discussing and comparing a 2004 Audi to 2011 i30. Different engines. Different Makes, Different tuning box.

Alan what i am after in this thread is fuel ecomony and performance figures with a tuning box on a Hyundai i30.

PS
I dont understand why many owners of tuning boxes here on forum dont input their observations on that subject? I mean, first thing you notice is if car goes better and how much km you croosed with full tank.

This is the reason why i started this, And Xamxy i thank you very much for all the figures and i hope others that read this will thank you too.

I have decided on the Racechip , i might get the pro version, these both seems to have the best price/performance. Unless someone else can give me a good reason to buy something more expensive.

I'm also looking into an exhaust system, i know this will help as well, but this can be quite an expensive upgrade. Anyone know anyone in perth who has experiance with this??

[neoto]

@Xamaxy: Where is your tuning box connected to? Most tuning boxes I have seen, are connected in the pressure sensor line. Injectors are still connected with the original cables to the ECU. Why would then the ECU shorten the injector cycles. I don't get this one

Back to tuning boxes - did you install just the tuning box? You mentioned the exhaust - was that modified in any way? It is well known that releasing the 'back-pressure' (or sth like that) dramatically increases economy.

I'm an engineer and try to be objective...

Most of all, the garage, where I bought my i30, offered me the test installation of the tuning box for free - claiming that it boosts the power from 90 HP to over 110 HP, while lowering the fuel consumption by 0.5 l/100km. I'm now contemplating whether to get this one installed or not...

@AlanHo: It would be interesting to see the comparison of the new Audi 2.0 engine and yours.  Some newer emission standards really decrease the economy.

[Dazzler]

I'm just a little confused why we are discussing and comparing a 2004 Audi to 2011 i30. Different engines. Different Makes, Different tuning box.

Alan what i am after in this thread is fuel ecomony and performance figures with a tuning box on a Hyundai i30.

Alan was just using that as an example of why he is not a big fan of tuning boxes (I thought it was a fair call)

As far as the cat back exhaust mod goes the turbo and cat converter seem to be where most if not all the back pressure is and from my experience and several others on here as well there is little or no performance or economy gain from such a mod (only a slight improvement to the exhaust note) 

[birdhouse]

As far as the cat back exhaust mod goes the turbo and cat converter seem to be where most if not all the back pressure is and from my experience and several others on here as well there is little or no performance or economy gain from such a mod (only a slight improvement to the exhaust note) 

That is correct, the reason why i'd mention it be pricey is because i'd be after turbo back exhaust. I nice high flow cat and muffler seems like it be perfect but of course pricey and may not offset the cost saving, But can help to bring down those EGT's.

[Dazzler]

Ooh yeah .. Birdhouse now you are talking big $$$ 

[AlanHo]

I was hoping that my detailed records showing car performance before, during and after fitting a tuning box would encourage someone who has experience of fitting one to publish similar detailed comparison data gathered over a long period.

I know from experience that the car computer is not accurate proof of fuel economy - neither is brim to brim calculations unless taken over several fills. There is a strong body of expert opinion who claim that the computer is fooled when the fuel injection pressure is raised by a tuning box - and brimming a diesel consistently is not easy due to foaming. In my opinion the only accurate guide is , like I did, to make comparisons from data gathered over a long period - not just a few hundred miles or one fill.

Despite holding my current belief that a tuning box - unlike engine remapping - cannot provide extra power without compromising economy - I have an open mind. I would truly welcome documented proof from an extended trial that there is a tuning box that is guaranteed to give me the best of both Worlds on my i30 - more power and better economy. Then I will be first in the queue to buy one

I am not able to post my Excel file - but here are jpg copies. (3 pages)

[birdhouse]

Ooh yeah .. Birdhouse now you are talking big $$$ 

do you think it will match the price i paid for my cat back for my EB Falcon 8 years ago? 

I have family/friends in the car business so I'll ask around. If i continue doing 700-800kms a week like i am now it may be worth it.

@neoto

You have PM since i dont want to spam in "our" language here.
Generally said: its not about injecting more fuel, its about when you inject and at which pressure.

Yes, i did my exhaust also, turbo-back exhaust...after turbine straight pipe.
I didnt get economy gain, tho obvious gain in response, which in turn gives slightly better quarter mile timing. For example, when i push it hard to 4500rpms, every shifting resulted in certain delay before throttle is accepted, like choking. Now it rews to 4500rpm faster, shift, and car instantly goes forward with no choking. I hope in the end that means better free flow and lower EGT.

If garage where you bought your i30 offers you TEST installation, GO FOR IT!!!
Every question you have will be answered from that test drive. and in the end if you are not happy just say i dont like it and whats the harm?

@AlanHo
I totally agree with you, and i was at first like "more horses-more food", but now from my experience, i cant imagine my diesel car without 20% tuning.

[beerman]

Why does my big post on this point generate an error......

[Shambles]

Why does my big post on this point generate an error......

If it's a "500" error, make sure you haven't got words like "select" in there too often...

[beerman]

No use of the s word, but obviously something else is upsetting the flux capacitor.....

Anyway in a nutshell, I was saying I'm after economy rather than power.

I'm not adverse to spending money if I can see a return on investment. I've had 4 cars on LPG, and thats not a small investment to install, but the economics is there, and proven.

But from what I see on Google all the  discussion on forums of various brands is arguments about their effectiveness.

I am of the opinion that if they worked, they would be all over car magazines having been tested and proven.  So far I can't find anything other than mass debate.