[daisy]

My question: Does anyone know if the immobiliser system cuts power to the fuel pump?

My story...
SAT 18APR09: Car won’t start.
SUN 19APR09: RACQ identified fuel pump failure.  RACQ man broke a relay levering it out with a screwdriver (same type as other relays, so we could swap them around; I wiggled them out with slightly more patience!).  Towed to Metro Hyundai, Windsor (Brisbane) - tow truck was taking my car while a Police Random Breath Test was going on right behind my car; it must have looked like my baby was being impounded cause I'm a drunk driver!  Had to leave car in the back street, because they were closed.
MON 20APR09: They agree: fuel pump ordered. Not available until Wednesday (on collection found out they have only been doing Hyundai for 3 weeks at this place).
WED 22APR09:  Fuel pump arrives. Fitted.  Collected car.  The mechanic said it wouldn't start when they first went to it, but after towing it to the workshop it started fine - intermittent fault!  I don't know whether they confirmed the fuel pump was the intermittent fault, or they just assumed based on the RACQ information I passed on.  I will be asking tomorrow, since the intermittent fault is probably not the fuel pump since...
FRI 24APR09: Car won’t start - again; same symptoms.  Stuck at home.  Let's get stuck into it...
SUN 26APR09: Approx 11Volts is present on the electrical connector which brings 12Volts to the fuel pump, but it is loaded down to zero when connected to the fuel pump (I disconnected the electrical connector, but jumpered the 12VDC from the wiring harness connector to the fuel pump electrical socket with a voltmeter monitoring).
12Volts from a car battery directly to fuel pump and car will start fine (I can hear it start pumping, and the car will start).  Measured it sucking 4.9Amperes.  Therefore 12V x 4.9Amp = approx 60Watts.  Hmmmm, 12VDC accessory socket in the console can supply 120Watts...
Have made a cable from 12V accessory socket to fuel pump, so I can drive the car to Hyundai.  The other terminals on the electrical connector that aren't connected are the fuel gauge; so it is indicating empty.  Just hoping those electrical contact sockets (made from a Personal Computer hardrive power connector contacts which are circular, squashed flat) I have slid onto the fuel pump elec socket contacts will not slip off, and short out, in which they will short the accessory socket and blow the fuse.

So I reckon it is something with the wiring/ control circuitry.  I saw another post from a guy with an intermittent fault on the immobiliser receiver.  If the immobiliser method is to cut power to the fuel pump, then this could explain it.  Does anyone know if the immobiliser system cuts power to the fuel pump?

Photos:
1) shows where the fuel pump is located under the rear seat (pull the tab at the front of the seat to release and lift, lift the velctro held patch cover, remove 4 screws to expose the area shown.
2) close up on the fuel pump electrical socket with the electrical connector removed; I have pointed out the 12VDC terminals to power the pump.
3) hot wires connected to power the pump off the accessory socket.

Stay tuned for Monday’s episode!

[Dazzler]

You are quite a smart cookie Adam (I mean Daisy) Not many of us would have attempted what you did...

Are you in the electronics or auto industries...?

Hope it gets sorted quickly..

[daisy]

You are quite a smart cookie Adam (I mean Daisy) Not many of us would have attempted what you did...

Are you in the electronics or auto industries...?

Hope it gets sorted quickly..

Avionics engineer (don't tell Bumpkin; something in the pics area tells me he is a little bit of an aviation freak!).  It's very frustrating not having wiring diagrams, and having to reverse engineer everything;  I actually had to remove the fuel pump out of the tank to find which of the electrical contacts going into it were the +ve and -ve power for the pump, and which were the fuel gauge.   That was a bit tricky.  For my old vectra (now gone), I bought the Haynes manual, and although a lot of useful detail is left out, they are invaluable.  Unfortuneately, no Haynes manual available for i30 yet.

[Dazzler]

Daisy,

This thread has wiring diagrams for the audio..

https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,2468.0.html

the web addresses at the top of each capture might be a hint on where to get other wiring diagrams..

Think there may be other helpful info for you under the technical info heading too..

[middy]

Just thinking laterally here.  You don't mention whether the engine turns over but doesn't fire or if it doesn't turn over at all.  However if it doesn't turn over at all and you have a manual transmission then it could be an intermittent fault with the switch on the clutch pedal resulting in the car thinking you don't have the clutch pushed in when starting.  Just a thought.

[daisy]

Just thinking laterally here.  You don't mention whether the engine turns over but doesn't fire or if it doesn't turn over at all.  However if it doesn't turn over at all and you have a manual transmission then it could be an intermittent fault with the switch on the clutch pedal resulting in the car thinking you don't have the clutch pushed in when starting.  Just a thought.

Good thought Middy - thanks.  Engine is turning over fine.  Auto not manual (Grrr, I wish I hadn't listened to my wife on that one).  I'm still thinking immobiliser is current limiting the fuel pump circuit, since it measures 12volts (actually just over 11 volts) on the supply lines to the fuel pump, until it tries to power the pump and the voltage drops to zero.

[tji30]

Just hope they don't refuse warranty service for the "mods" you've had to make to get it going again.

[EpOcH]

At about 3 months old, it began to develop an intermittent starting fault. You'd put the key in the ignition, and try and start it but it just wouldnt go! NRMA checked everything over, and they couldnt fault it! They suggested it was a fault in the security system (maybe the clutch switch??). Once we got it started again (we dont know how?? But it started again after about 30 mins), we took it to Tweed Hyundai, and they couldnt find anything wrong either! This went on for about 2 months. My wife used to always get stranded at shopping centres etc with our 6 month baby boy in the back seat. Sometimes the car would not start for up to an hour! Obviously, this just wasn't good enough for a brand new car! Anyway, Tweed Hyundai finally figured out that the key chip receiver in the car was faulty and would only work every now and then. This has since been replaced and we have not had a problem since!

From another post here, sounds like its the same thing making the imobiliser kick in and not pump fuel, get them to replace it and find out
Thread https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,1034.0.html

[MRH130]

Hi Daisy,

The immobiliser does cut power to the fuel pump, and the vehicle will happily crank and crank and never start if the immobiliser tells it not to.

Well done on all your investigations!

I imagine that when the car was at the dealership they just went with the roadside assistance's diagnosis and replaced the fuel pump because that was the best guess. Another problem is that Hyundai don't pay dealers for diagnosis time, only for rectification time, so that can lead to, shall we say, less than thorough diagnosis, especially if the problem is intermittent and the dealership is new to the franchise.

The most common immobiliser faults, as you may know, are the transponder in the key and the antenna coil around the ignition barrel which reads the transponder. Obviously keys suffer from being dropped, jarred, put through the wash, having the dog eat them, etc etc, but sometimes something else just gives up.

Something I have found useful as a diagnostic indicator is to try to start the car with the spare key when it is refusing to cooperate. If it starts with one key but not the other that answers it straight away. Just make sure when trying the experiment that the two keys are at least half a metre from each other.

Immobiliser faults almost always set fault codes as well, and I'm just wondering if perhaps the dealer doesn't have their GDS unit (or the knowledge to use it) yet. Not casting aspersions on them, just tossing ideas around. Were they able to pull any codes out of the car?

For the record, a fuel pump fault will not usually set a code, although we seem to have eliminated that particular issue! 

Let us know how you go!

[daisy]

Problem isolated.  Not immobiliser system at all.  Burnt contact in a junction box.  Power for fuel pump goes through the fuse, then the fuel pump relay, then through a junction box near the drivers right knee (RHD) and to the fuel pump.  Significant disassembly to show the junction box required.  Base of the contact is showing the burnt brown colour.

New junction box coming from Korea and in the meantime they have installed a wire to bypass the junction box.  When I get the 15000km service (in about 6 weeks) I will get it installed and get some photos of my baby in pieces for you all to check out.

This sort of fault shouldn't happen.  I reckon it's either a defect in the junction box, or too much current being drawn through the junction box.  Too much current could happen if the first fuel pump that got replaced really did have a short circuit, but this should cause the fuse to blow before the junction box contact is having too much current drawn through it to cause damage.  Perhaps in vehicle assembly testing they draw current through the circuits to stress test the wiring integrity; maybe this one did some damage that has deteriorated in service.

No problems with any warranty argument.  I had read my warranty clauses and I was ready for them - If what I rigged up had caused damage they could refuse to fix that damage under warranty, and they can refuse to demodify (which I did after I parked my car at the service place).

[Merlot]

Hi Daisy
I had same problem and daughters boyfriend was a foreman for Hy and said there is a problem with the antenna coils in a lot of models. The antenna coil is the ring on the steering column behind where you put the ignition key in and sends the signal to the immobilizer. My problem was the remote on the key next time it wont start try the other key if its not the key it is probably the other regards merlot

[Dazzler]

Now that illustrates the value of this club...Some interesting info being bandied around there...