i30 Owners Club
MODIFYING OR DETAILING YOUR I30 => ENGINE BAY => Topic started by: Zhangster on February 22, 2009, 16:30:16
-
Hi guys
now i have checked a bit around the forums and i only see ppl r posting places where u can get those tuning boxes.... but is there anyone that have tried them out on their own car and can give a good picture of how the preformance is?
tbh i dont give much for what the fabricators says the tuning box does... i trust more on what ppl say that got the hardware installed and use it everyday.. :)
so please... :) give us some info ...
thanks :)
-
You haven't looked hard enough!
I installed one and it makes a huge difference, to the economy and performance. I've set mine for low-down power as she's fine at high speeds without any need for more power.
https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,1066.0.html
-
Its a shame these threads (on whatever forum for whatever brand of car) generally fall down to a sh*t fight.
I have the hardware to tune my v8 and have done so for a number of years , tinkering and fully understanding what goes on, however all the rules for go-fast in petrol engines are turned on their head for diesel, im willing to discuss this a bit more if people are interested.
Here is my take on it and an explanation of what i will be going for.
Tuning boxes (not the brand, the style)
The plug in boxes are generally a hack to sensors, i.e. they are all about *tricking* sensors or overriding set voltages of the car to the sensors.
With these boxes they will generally if not allways plug into a component of the engine not the ECU directly, they play with the fuel delivery via modifying the voltage going through in order to trick the cars ecu into delivering more fuel or delivering less. More fuel on its own will bring you closer to the EGT (exhaust gas temperature) limit of the car in a diesel.
The plus side to these devices is they are generally , remove 1 plug , plug it into the box, and plug the lead from box into the fuel rail where you removed the other.
I'd be weary of thse sorts of addons as if the fuel sensor was to over/under volt this addon may aditionally add more fuel or remove more fuel breaking the safety margins of the ecu or associated equipment, the ECU doesnt know about this addon and CANT compensate.
These were all the "go" when people havnt *cracked* the security of the inbuilt ECU the advantage of most of these for diesel engines these days are there is no cutting/joinging of wires and are easy to remove.
Pro: easy to plug in and remove to hide from dealer and generally cheap (its just a upscale resistor).
Con: Possible issues with associated items as all its doing is tricking a sensor and not really remapping anything.(they are plugged into a fuel rail not the ecu)
Vs
Editing the ECU
To me, this is the simply the more complete/better option, having the ECU do its job and not have tricked/modified sensor/sensors via an addon box. The effort involved for the tuner is alot greater than simply playing with the output wire to a sensor so they would generally cost more but if something goes past the normal inbuilt safety limits , the ecu can do its job and not have another device in the way adding/removing voltage from a wire which is in the tunerbox examples, increasing fuel pressure.
If the tuner knows what theyre playing with and done a bit of research and development, the ecu tune could be played with to change other features, i.e boost, rising fuel pressure/spray duration at exact rpm rather than lumping everything into <2000 or >2000 only.
Pro: A more complete tune with more of the standard factory safety is left inplace
Con: A dealer could detect your running more fuel pressure/boost with an obd scanner. Alot more expensive.
Hopefully with some fact and *adult* discussion this thread can remain on track and not get closed prematurely :)
-
Hi guys
now i have checked a bit around the forums and i only see ppl r posting places where u can get those tuning boxes.... but is there anyone that have tried them out on their own car and can give a good picture of how the preformance is?
tbh i dont give much for what the fabricators says the tuning box does... i trust more on what ppl say that got the hardware installed and use it everyday.. :)
so please... :) give us some info ...
thanks :)
From the sounds of your post it seems that you have looked at other forums but not necessarily this one for hints wrt tuning boxes.
First of all Shambles link provides a wealth of info about the tuning boxes fitted to CRDi i30's, hopefully this has given insight to what you are after.
If not than I can't help you anymore than saying what is in that thread seems to prove that the tuning box does improve economy (if set correctly).
Personally, I don't have the box, but it is tempting. Whilst I'm a 21 y.o, (hence everyone considers me (especially insurance companies) to be in the stereotype of boy racer) I'd rather pursue the ultimate economy of the i30 rather than performance. But I also don't want to risk voiding warranties etc.
I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.
The final judgement is up to you, it depends on whether you want to chance both (potential) insurance and warranty claims.
All the best to you.
Regards
Daniel
-
Personally, I don't have the box, but it is tempting. Whilst I'm a 21 y.o, (hence everyone considers me (especially insurance companies) to be in the stereotype of boy racer) I'd rather pursue the ultimate economy of the i30 rather than performance. But I also don't want to risk voiding warranties etc.
I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.
I'll save you the phone call, the tuning box will void warranty if its deemed to have affected the operation of the vehicle but limited to the parts youve played with.
So in the case of a faulty Engine/Turbo/Fuel delivery system/gearbox/Driveline that was deemed by the dealer (acting on behalf of Hyundai) to be a result of the tune they would nulify your warranty on anything in its path i.e. Engine/Turbo/Fuel Delivery Systems/Gearbox/Driveline (i.e Diff), Generally the dealer would also lodge this with Hyundai so sneaking off to another dealer that doesnt know about this tune would be found out when they apply to Hyundai to replace the part under warranty.
In theory with a tune, your wiper motor warranty would still exist as this isnt affected by the tune.
How much of a determination needs to be made for them to nulify that warranty is very open to interpretation and would be the issue of a legal team if you wished to persue it.
-
I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.
When you contact Hy Aus get them to reply in writing confirming their reponse.
It would be useful if you post the reply here, yes or no, so all members will be aware of the policy etc.
If the reply is it is yes in Oz then members from other countries can then check the policy in their country. If they receive a no then they can query this if Oz is yes.
You get the drift.
-
I know personally I will be consulting Hyundai Australia, to verify whether adding a tuning box for the purpsoses of achieving maximum economy will void warraties. If they deem a tuning box used for this purpsoe will void warranties then I won't purchase the device.
When you contact Hy Aus get them to reply in writing confirming their reponse.
It would be useful if you post the reply here, yes or no, so all members will be aware of the policy etc.
If the reply is it is yes in Oz then members from other countries can then check the policy in their country. If they receive a no then they can query this if Oz is yes.
You get the drift.
Yeah no worries eye.
I was planning on just asking at the next visit to my hyundai garage, but an E-mail might also be worth it, if I get the chance. So as to ensure I have something in writing as opposed to just word of mouth..............
Regards
Daniel
-
Hopefully with some fact and *adult* discussion this thread can remain on track and not get closed prematurely :)
I'm with you on this one EpOcH.
There were too many conflictng agenda's on this topic last time.
Thanks for the clear and concise info on Tuning Boxes vs ECU Editing
-
I'll save you the phone call, the tuning box will void warranty if its deemed to have affected the operation of the vehicle but limited to the parts youve played with.
Likewise an ECU edit will void the warranty if it's found to be the root cause of the failed part. (Just like any modification to the vehicle)
Then again, if you are chasing ultimate economy and have 'reduced' the output power, and then a part fails, it is up to Hyundai to show that a 'reduction' in power output has caused that part or parts to fail.
Also with the i30 Diesel Turbo, there are multiple sensors that track how much fuel is going into the engine, what load the engine is under, how much unburnt fuel is going out the exhaust, knock sensor, fuel rail over pressure sensor, so on and so forth.
There are safety systems on the i30 that prevent over fueling, prevent over powering and prevent damage to the engine when a 'simple' TuningBox is fitted.
When performing an ECU hack, these safety parameters can be overridden by software, thus pushing the limits of the i30 Diesel way past it's intended and safe parameters. (That is if the programmer/tuner removes the limits for boost and fuel to create even higher amounts of power.)
Increasing fuel delivery alone will increase Exhaust Gas Temps, though increasing turbo boost AND fuel pressure will result in even higher EGT's and may even push the turbo outside it's efficiency range only to heat the incoming air even more, without increasing boost, resulting in even higher EGT's.
There are Pro's and Con's for both setups.
If you wish for a mild increase only on a budget, a TuningBox will suit.
If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)
BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)
Just some extra points to consider when you wish to research this further. :cool:
-
Likewise an ECU edit will void the warranty if it's found to be the root cause of the failed part. (Just like any modification to the vehicle)
Oops , my bad I should have said Tune like I attempted to say elsewhere in my post, covering both tuning box style and direct ecu edits. Definitly agree on this point whether it be a direct edit or a plugin box, if its deemed to have caused the issue then your up poop creek without a paddle.
Then again, if you are chasing ultimate economy and have 'reduced' the output power, and then a part fails, it is up to Hyundai to show that a 'reduction' in power output has caused that part or parts to fail.
Tuning up is the same as tuning down, they dont need to prove a heck of a lot in this area as you play you pay is the general rule, it would be up to YOU to prove that your playing with items hasnt caused the issue, they just have to take a stab in the dark. They would simply have to throw the "you played, you pay" book at you and it would be up to you with lawyers involved to prove otherwise , not them, you can bet they will have their own team on the otherside attempting to disprove anything you can come up with aswell , with a lot more cars and data on them to baffle any judge.
Having said this I have a tune in my v8 and the dealer knew about this and warranty was still preserved, some of this comes down to a good relationship with the dealer/service department regardless of an edit or tunning box.
Also with the i30 Diesel Turbo, there are multiple sensors that track how much fuel is going into the engine, what load the engine is under, how much unburnt fuel is going out the exhaust, knock sensor, fuel rail over pressure sensor, so on and so forth.
There are safety systems on the i30 that prevent over fueling, prevent over powering and prevent damage to the engine when a 'simple' TuningBox is fitted.
Yes there are sensors that attempt to keep everything within the *safe* limits (determined by manufacturer) of the cars life in all sorts of conditions. When you stick something like a *simple* tuning box in the path of a sensor, how does the ECU handle said limits from the fuel rail pressure sensor, lets be honest it cant because the tuning box is providing the signal to the ecu from the sensor, you have plugged a device in the path to the ECU that is messing with the voltage. If your tuning box goes awol and starts over commanding fuel pressures but doesnt fail on the ECU output side, how sure are you that its going to let the ECU know whats happening correctly , my confidence level here would be minimal youve plugged a *simple* device inline thats modifying wire voltages as it sees fit.
BTW, I'm not sure that we'd have knock sensors in a diesel engine (and i may be wrong), engine knock occurs from pre-ignition when you have spark timing set incorrectly in petrol(gas) engines, there are no sparks with diesel's , combustion is controlled by the heat and compression in the cylinder.
When performing an ECU hack, these safety parameters can be overridden by software, thus pushing the limits of the i30 Diesel way past it's intended and safe parameters. (That is if the programmer/tuner removes the limits for boost and fuel to create even higher amounts of power.)
ECU Edit/Hack whatever you want to call it, If your tuner of choice is removing these safey parameters then they simply dont know what they are doing or are after a quick buck.
Ive edited the ECU on my v8 leaving inplace full functionality of knock sensors and dual spark tables which gives headroom for low octane/bad fuel, your crazy if you do any less or you let your tuner do it for you regardless of if it is a petrol or diesel engine.
Increasing fuel delivery alone will increase Exhaust Gas Temps, though increasing turbo boost AND fuel pressure will result in even higher EGT's and may even push the turbo outside it's efficiency range only to heat the incoming air even more, without increasing boost, resulting in even higher EGT's.
I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor dont get me wrong both tuning box style devices or ecu edit can be incorrectly set by anyone and cause great issues. Wouldnt it be better if the ECU knows whats really going on here and can inflict its safety reactions ?
There are Pro's and Con's for both setups.
If you wish for a mild increase only on a budget, a TuningBox will suit.
Agree that there are pro's and con's to each although one doesnt modify the sensor readings and one makes full use of the sensors in a normal way.
And as i said above, the pro of the tuning box style is ease of fitment and price you wont get any arguement on this front, whereas the ecu edit is more expensive as there would be a lot more R&D involved than simply giving some variable resistor settings on a dial and letting the home mechanic play with these. If you think this is rubbish, how much did your car cost .. thats a large part of any investment for any tuning shop unless their going to play guinea pigs with a customers car, at that case dont walk away from the tuner, RUN!.
If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)
This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.
Its the same with v8's , some want all out power, some want more economy, its all about tweaking the right tables in the tune.
BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)
Wrong, the ecu software is generally protected so that a home mechanic cant come along and mess with things, this can often take many years to come across a workable solution. You have to break that encryption to be able to even ascertain what data is in the ECU's software and where it is, if you look at late model bmw's they're now using 512kbit encryption, cracking that is NOT going to be easy, think of your banking system thats probably still using 256kbit encryption on its website.
Even if you desolder chips from the ECU you still have to get past the above, I'm not sure what encryption level is on the i30 ECU but if it was that easy there would be a heap of tuning shops around that would be doing this or shops selling the hardware to let the home mechanic do it. Ive simply not seen these available.
Just some extra points to consider when you wish to research this further. :cool:
I'm not trying to kill tuning box style sales and push everyone towards an Edit, but these are things ive seen and played with for years with another petrol engined car and ive seen all the claims of these boxes and then I've seen the additional settings and controls i can get at with a full style edit.
I can't sit by and let everyone believe an ECU edit is mystical nonsense because of one person requiring a specific dyno sheet to believe it and that a tuning box is magically better than the other because of it.
NOTE: damage can happen from either way of tuning.
As I've just read in Shambles thread from another member here, dont forget that the plugin boxes may also affect other sensors/displays. i.e. If your trip computer/tank readings rely on information from your ECU and that sensors data flow is incorrect as you have something playing with that signal you will also find out that these displays (i.e. Trip Computer) will more than likely end up displaying incorrect readings as the information recieved by the ECU is false, this shows another downfall of the plugin style boxes.
I'm stuck at this crossroad myself as i will be doing one or the other, one is cheap and seems quite effective but i know what they are really doing and the possible issues of both styles of systems. While a dealer may not be able to read and examine the edit style they do have basic ODB tools that could monitor MAP pressure and fuel pressure sensors so it *could* be discovered, even if you play dumb to them. Eventually after replacing various sensors they would know that it has to be the ECU commanding those settings.
Dealers/Hyundai would be monitoring threads on various forums to see what people are playing with, so dont think they are blind in this area.
Again, im not out to start a sh*tfight, I just believe there are some clear wrongs that mislead people in some of these tuning threads.
P.S. When all this is out in the open and people have all the facts, I'll discuss a dyno sheet from D.W. Tuning and explain some basics of what your seeing and explain why a "timed run" really doesnt mean much.
P.P.S: Sorry dpo if weve taken this thread OT too far, if mods want to move the last couple of posts to a new thread I wont mind :)
-
*Whistles*
Oh boy, where do I start...........
Before this goes WAY off topic, like most of these threads, due to miss-information, let me correct a few irregularities. Also there is only so much I'm allowed to say, since I've been requested not to supply certain information.
Yes there are sensors that attempt to keep everything within the *safe* limits (determined by manufacturer) of the cars life in all sorts of conditions.
Then you go on to say.
When you stick something like a *simple* tuning box in the path of a sensor, how does the ECU handle said limits from the fuel rail pressure sensor, lets be honest it cant because the tuning box is providing the signal to the ecu from the sensor, you have plugged a device in the path to the ECU that is messing with the voltage. If your tuning box goes awol and starts over commanding fuel pressures but doesnt fail on the ECU output side, how sure are you that its going to let the ECU know whats happening correctly , my confidence level here would be minimal youve plugged a *simple* device inline thats modifying wire voltages as it sees fit.
There is more than just one sensor monitoring the engine, like you previously described. With the Tuningbox you are only changing ONE sensors output.
If the Tuningbox goes "AWOL" and outputs a voltage outside the normal operating parameters set in the ECU, causing the fuel pressure to rise, then the over-pressure limiting vale will open on the fuel pressure rail. Also the exhaust lambda sensor will know that the engine is now over fueling and cut back pump pressure and/or cut back injector pulse width, and/or ETC will be reduced. The ECU may even go as far as to go into limp home mode (MAX RPM is 3,000rpm with 35-40% throttle up to that RPM)
BTW, I'm not sure that we'd have knock sensors in a diesel engine (and i may be wrong), engine knock occurs from pre-ignition when you have spark timing set incorrectly in petrol(gas) engines, there are no sparks with diesel's , combustion is controlled by the heat and compression in the cylinder.
In a CRDi ignition is achieved by heat/compression.
Fuel timing is controlled by the ECU.
Fuel timing can be advanced, retarded, multiple injections per power stroke (Up to five injections on certain cycles) There is a 'Pilot' injection to help reduce the classic diesel 'knock/clatter' we all know of. There can even be an injection of fuel when the exhaust valve is open to super heat the exhaust gases when certain DPF's are being used and need to 'burn' off excess carbon in the filter.
ECU Edit/Hack whatever you want to call it, If your tuner of choice is removing these safey parameters then they simply dont know what they are doing or are after a quick buck.
Yes, there are many cowboys out there. We've all heard of them.
I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor
33+ PSI MAP, correct. The stock boost for a CRDi i30 manual.
If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)
This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.
As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?
BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)
Wrong, the ecu software is generally protected so that a home mechanic cant come along and mess with things, this can often take many years to come across a workable solution. You have to break that encryption to be able to even ascertain what data is in the ECU's software and where it is, if you look at late model bmw's they're now using 512kbit encryption, cracking that is NOT going to be easy, think of your banking system thats probably still using 256kbit encryption on its website.
I have no idea what computer system you are talking about when you say "512kbit" encryption. The highest on any system I've worked upon (Doing R&D work) was 1024bit. (And those were Defence systems)
Heck, even WEP for normal home use is only 104bit. (WPA & WPA2 is 256bit)
I will not go into what security Hyundai have placed on their Bosch ECU's, nor will I explain how access was granted. All I can say is it wasn't that hard for a Bosch programmer to gain access to a Bosch ECU! :cool:
Each to their own with regards to modifying their vehicle.
What I will agree on is, you play, you pay. :D
-
Oops hope I didnt kill the forum with another long post and a few previews to try and get the quotes all happy :lol:
*Whistles*
Oh boy, where do I start...........
I dont think we need to start whistling and attempting to appear elitist we are meant to be adults.
Just start at the begining, its the easiest :)
Before this goes WAY off topic, like most of these threads, due to miss-information, let me correct a few irregularities. Also there is only so much I'm allowed to say, since I've been requested not to supply certain information.
I dont really think were going off topic as this thread subject says CRDi tuning :mrgreen:.
I dont know why you would be asked to not say too much, if you were under an NDA you are "required" to not say anything vs not under an NDA where your best mates friend who says he knows something(or is possibly under the NDA himself) has "requested" you to not saying anything there is a major difference here :)
If the existing threads are so filled with mis-information then why in the 6+ months of the ecu edit route being available have you not cleared the air with fact .... sounds like now is a good time to start, this IS what im attempting to do here ;)
Yes there are sensors that attempt to keep everything within the *safe* limits (determined by manufacturer) of the cars life in all sorts of conditions.
Then you go on to say.
When you stick something like a *simple* tuning box in the path of a sensor, how does the ECU handle said limits from the fuel rail pressure sensor, lets be honest it cant because the tuning box is providing the signal to the ecu from the sensor, you have plugged a device in the path to the ECU that is messing with the voltage. If your tuning box goes awol and starts over commanding fuel pressures but doesnt fail on the ECU output side, how sure are you that its going to let the ECU know whats happening correctly , my confidence level here would be minimal youve plugged a *simple* device inline thats modifying wire voltages as it sees fit.
There is more than just one sensor monitoring the engine, like you previously described. With the Tuningbox you are only changing ONE sensors output.
If the Tuningbox goes "AWOL" and outputs a voltage outside the normal operating parameters set in the ECU, causing the fuel pressure to rise, then the over-pressure limiting vale will open on the fuel pressure rail.
Also the exhaust lambda sensor will know that the engine is now over fueling and cut back pump pressure and/or cut back injector pulse width, and/or ETC will be reduced. The ECU may even go as far as to go into limp home mode (MAX RPM is 3,000rpm with 35-40% throttle up to that RPM)
Maybe I should have worded this a bit better, You have added a box that is playing "man in the middle" and can fail on either its input from the sensor and or output to the ecu. If the box supplies the ECU with a normal reading even though its not recieving said normal signal correctly from the sensors group then the ECU will not see this function as abnormal and the system will NOT limp home. If limp home was to be induced under such simple circumstances then a tuning box lieing to the ECU about its signal which means the ECU wont see that signal as bad until the device fails on its output side.
If the ECU was that smart then the tuning box addon's would instantly cause the limp mode or 0 performance with its modification of fuel since its causing other sensors to read abnormal values vs rail pressure for the increased fuel or decreased fuel which then means the lamda sensor is also reading more/less oxygen than it should, isnt that what you have described above ;) This would also mean that in a real circumstance the ECU would attempt to vary that fuel load to bring it back inline where it should be, with a tuning box addon in the path of the fuel rail sensor constantly lieing to the ECU about the sensors signal how certain are you really that the ECU will be able to adjust in time.
Without knowing the circuitry of said plug in devices do you really know which way it will fail when it does , i.e overvolt , undervolt, middle of the line , straight passthrough ? Ive not seen any of the tuner boxes I've looked at lately describe said failures if they were to occur and which way the device would fall. I dont know that i'd want the wife having to pull and hide the tuning box from a Hyundai dealer should the car fail in such a way it has to go to them on a towtruck from where its died while im at work. Even if the tuning box itself fails and results in a car that has stalled and wont restart because of a failed *real* sensor, I dont want my wife having to play in a hot engine bay even though she can follow the instructions, that rail plug is a fair pull to remove it from other posts and wont be nice when the enginebay is 60degrees plus.
Dependant on how this signal fails in the tuning box, how does the ECU know whats really going on until you remove the box, how do you even know the tuning box is/has failed, its not going to throw a "check engine" lamp on the dash. Considering that failure, if it happens to command maximum of fuel pressure (from the tuning box commanding it via a low/high voltage) at low rpm where your engine shouldnt have that much fuel, more fuel = more exhaust gas = more boost, how confident are you that its not possible to throw a rod out of the side of the block because of the failure of the "man in the middle".
ECU Edit/Hack whatever you want to call it, If your tuner of choice is removing these safey parameters then they simply dont know what they are doing or are after a quick buck.
Yes, there are many cowboys out there. We've all heard of them.
There are more than likely just as many if not more snake-oil variable resistors but i dont see you calling that style of system a hack, Is it because your attempting to justify the purchase price for a variable resistor ? So rather than class every ECU modification as a hack, how much have you discussed the technical side of the ECU tunes available in Australia with a tuner ?, which ones have you discussed said "hacks" with, we need to know because i want to stay away from them too.
I admit to knowing Martin( i did so in a couple of PM's to various people including a moderator) he tuned my v8 initially before I spent $1300+ on the hardware with a completely different company to have a play and come to terms with it all during which time he provided answers to my questions , he was gaining no further $$$'s for his effort and didnt need to help but you dont know if you dont ask. He is a wealth of knowledge and has probably forgotten more than both of us know on the subject of tuning various makes/models of cars. Tarnishing everyone with the same brush because youve read some bad things on the internet about some other ecu *hacks* isnt the best idea without some serious conversations with your tuner of choice albiet Martin or someone else.
This is why i keep saying talk to your tuner, this is the most important thing armed with information!, yes i do know of less than ideal tunes/tuners over the past few years would I call them cowboys ? no, would I call the customer uninformed?, unfortunately yes. Not everyone has a mechanical/technical mind that can work through things in a logical fashion. That's what im trying to avoid here for everyone myself included.
You also mention you have a usb port for your tuning box for playing with the maps, can you supply some images of the maps and what exactly your getting to change with it ? I really havn't had a look at your exact box (I have no idea what one it is even) so im not 100% sure of what it can do but if its only plugging into the fuel rail pressure sensor I believe it will only be modifying fuel pressure ;)
How does it get values like engine RPM and injector pulse widths if its only plugging into a pressure sensor ? Is it guessing these off what the common rail pressure is at ? How does it know what the pressure should be for any given RPM and boost level ? I gather not all tuning boxes have this usb option to manipulate the way its acting.
BTW, I'm not sure that we'd have knock sensors in a diesel engine (and i may be wrong), engine knock occurs from pre-ignition when you have spark timing set incorrectly in petrol(gas) engines, there are no sparks with diesel's , combustion is controlled by the heat and compression in the cylinder.
In a CRDi ignition is achieved by heat/compression.
Fuel timing is controlled by the ECU.
Fuel timing can be advanced, retarded, multiple injections per power stroke (Up to five injections on certain cycles) There is a 'Pilot' injection to help reduce the classic diesel 'knock/clatter' we all know of. There can even be an injection of fuel when the exhaust valve is open to super heat the exhaust gases when certain DPF's are being used and need to 'burn' off excess carbon in the filter.
Was that a long winded yes, there is no knock sensor ? :) (good information though)
If your ECU is attempting to superheat the exaust gasses under these circumstances, what happens with the tuning box in the way, wont it be making the issue take longer to resolve for the ECU because its recieving false information from the sensor which is under/overfueling because thats the way the end user has set it ?. If its doing a 'burn' off of excess carbon in the filter and your commandling lower fuel pressure, that 'burn' off wont have completed properly if the ECU only does this for a specific amount of time.
Tricking sensors is not the best way to go, we have ECU's in our car to control these things why wouldnt you let that expensive bit of equipment do its job correctly ?
I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor
33+ PSI MAP, correct. The stock boost for a CRDi i30 manual.
Where are you reading the 33+PSI MAP from ?
Comparing your stated boost from the scanguage($200 item) (I'll assume the scanguage (again please correct me if im wrong)) why is your boost numbers so much higher than the Dyno graph showing boost from DW Tuning which only shows 19psi boost max (a $120,000 industry standard item), both read their data from the diagnostic port(this is the only other example I have to go by since nobody else has supplied a dyno sheet showing this information). I would think feeding 33psi into the cylinder, compressing it , and burning it which would make it expand further from heat and firing it down the exhaust to the turbo would make a reading of atleast 33psi by the turbo.
This isnt a sh*t stir , I'm attempting to know where and how the 33+psi comes into play, so please no :rolleyes: etc in your responce.
If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)
This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.
As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?
Your suggestion was that ECU tuning is only for outright power which isnt factual because if asked im sure a reasonable tuner could also edit the CPU for maximum fuel economy. So lets say that you can infact do an outright output effort with a tunning box( you personally have mentioned wheelspin in second gear on boost) but because all your doing is tricking a sensor its not really the best method although good value for money that is if you dont mind the con's listed in the replies but love the pro's.
Remember the tuning boxes are sold to the general public to play with and are essentially a variable resistor (programable to a minimal extent via usb or not) and probably do more harm than good in the wrong hands, much like an ECU edit done by a tuner that is clueless could do the same damage. Again, a decent conversation with a tuner would sort the men from the boys but only if you know what to ask I doubt you can have this sort of conversation with a tuning box manufacturer over the phone.
BTW, 'cracking' the ECU is not that hard. (Understanding what you've done, what parameters to work on and margins you can safely work within, they are the key operational issues.)
Wrong, the ecu software is generally protected so that a home mechanic cant come along and mess with things, this can often take many years to come across a workable solution. You have to break that encryption to be able to even ascertain what data is in the ECU's software and where it is, if you look at late model bmw's they're now using 512kbit encryption, cracking that is NOT going to be easy, think of your banking system thats probably still using 256kbit encryption on its website.
I have no idea what computer system you are talking about when you say "512kbit" encryption. The highest on any system I've worked upon (Doing R&D work) was 1024bit. (And those were Defence systems)
Heck, even WEP for normal home use is only 104bit. (WPA & WPA2 is 256bit)
I will not go into what security Hyundai have placed on their Bosch ECU's, nor will I explain how access was granted. All I can say is it wasn't that hard for a Bosch programmer to gain access to a Bosch ECU! :cool:
Each to their own with regards to modifying their vehicle.
What I will agree on is, you play, you pay. :D
Whoops, this is what getting up @ 5am after not feeling well all night does, combined with so much text and quotes.
Just replace kbit with bit and im sure people will understand :D And then agree cracking the encryption which is more than likely there wont be easy unless you've had some decent previous experience, I'ts not something the home mechanic has the hardware or knowledge to do as "easy" as you stated if it was then there would be kits available for the home tuner to do so and the software would be able to interperet the ecu software eeprom, this is what the tuning hardware/software for my other car does.
If my 10year old car has this protection you can bet a new car has it and more (albiet you could brute force my 10 year old one in 24-48hrs) :). R&D on something like this is time consuming and costly, in the other thread there was complaint that it was a 10minute operation, clearly this isnt the case.
I know this is probably getting hard to read by now but I'm sure people are interested, lets keep this going without the need to become personal and have the thread closed, lets air it all, as we've both said there are pro's and con's to each system and its best that its all in one thread rather than scattered amongst a group of locked threads with mis-information as the final posts.
I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. :mrgreen: I think were getting there slowly 8)
-
I know this is probably getting hard to read by now
Nope. Enjoying the info
but I'm sure people are interested
I am, and I'm sure others are...
lets keep this going without the need to become personal
So far, so good
...and have the thread closed... as we've both said there are pro's and con's to each system and its best that its all in one thread rather than scattered amongst a group of locked threads with mis-information as the final posts.
This is why threads are being locked down, maybe incorrectly, but on who's say-so are these "final posts" being classed as "mis-information"? Yours?
I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. :mrgreen: I think were getting there slowly 8)
I think you might be right - I wanted a "quick fix" to my low-end lack of response. I got that fix, so I'm happy.
-
...and have the thread closed... as we've both said there are pro's and con's to each system and its best that its all in one thread rather than scattered amongst a group of locked threads with mis-information as the final posts.
This is why threads are being locked down, maybe incorrectly, but on who's say-so are these "final posts" being classed as "mis-information"? Yours?
It was actually one of your posts that i think finished off the thread with a rather non-nuetral wording.
https://www.i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,633.msg16089.html#msg16089
I can understand the "believable" part because it was never discussed in this much detail i assume because Martin didnt have the time or incling to have this lengthy a debate, for him the proof would be in the pudding.
I'm sure if asked directly and prepared to spend the money he would let people test drive their i30, something I'll be asking him to do before I take the plunge if I go this route. Otherwise he'll have a mass of i30 owners turning up and flogging the guts out of their workshop vehicle just to report on an internet forum if he's true to his word. The dyno graph should have been enough for any person to see the result was believable, I'll go into this in a bit more detail after weve flushed out the pro's and con's of both systems, I dont think we have much more to go on this front( and i'll do this in another thread).
I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. :mrgreen: I think were getting there slowly 8)
I think you might be right - I wanted a "quick fix" to my low-end lack of response. I got that fix, so I'm happy.
And for the price and ease of fitment thats great as above aslong as your aware of the pro's and con's and limitations of the device (which you might not have been at the initial purchase time).
I can't and wont argue that bang for buck the tuning box style of enhancement is worth the money but for more money you could do it without lieing to the ECU and keeping such functions as the fuel usage trip meter accurate along with all the safety features fully operational.
-
I dont think we need to start whistling and attempting to appear elitist we are meant to be adults.
Just start at the begining, its the easiest :)
No, I just find it interesting that you have a certain interest in this matter, and I was right on my hunch. As another V8 Commodore owner who lives in Adelaide who also has had work performed on their vehicle by Martin and is a member of the LS1 forums, why am I not surprised at the long winded posts and lack on knowledge in the matter. (Not an attack, just a very astute observation)
Let's continue:
I dont know why you would be asked to not say too much
Have a think about it. I'm sure the answer will come to you. (As I've explained previously in other posts as to why, I'm not going to repeat myself)
Maybe I should have worded this a bit better, You have added a box that is playing "man in the middle" and can fail on either its input from the sensor and or output to the ecu.
*SNIP*
Dependant on how this signal fails in the tuning box, how does the ECU know whats really going on until you remove the box, how do you even know the tuning box is/has failed, its not going to throw a "check engine" lamp on the dash. Considering that failure, if it happens to command maximum of fuel pressure (from the tuning box commanding it via a low/high voltage) at low rpm where your engine shouldnt have that much fuel, more fuel = more exhaust gas = more boost, how confident are you that its not possible to throw a rod out of the side of the block because of the failure of the "man in the middle".
In simple words, the ECU is not absolute in it's operation. It has tolerances that it will work within. Something a tuner would have explained to you.
As long as the ECU receives signals form it's sensors within the set factory tolerances (Which are set rather low for safety of the equipment) then it will permit those changes.
Go outside these factory set tolerances (Which you can do with a ECU edit, something your tuner should have told you) then yes, expect to throw a leg out the side of the block, as you put it.
There are more than likely just as many if not more snake-oil variable resistors but i dont see you calling that style of system a hack
Because we are not discussing those kind of modifications, now, are we? To comment on them would be off-topic in this regard.
Is it because your attempting to justify the purchase price for a variable resistor ? So rather than class every ECU modification as a hack, how much have you discussed the technical side of the ECU tunes available in Australia with a tuner ?
Careful, sounds like Martin talking there. (I believe he used the same words in his previous posts)
I have no reason to justify my purchases. I enjoy what I do and make no money from what I do. :D
Yes, I would classify changing only the fuel map in the ECU as a hack. Dumping the entire ROM and changing every single parameter to suit, is a complete rewrite.
I admit to knowing Martin( i did so in a couple of PM's to various people including a moderator) he tuned my v8 initially before I spent $1300+ on the hardware with a completely different company to have a play and come to terms with it all during which time he provided answers to my questions , he was gaining no further $$$'s for his effort and didnt need to help but you dont know if you dont ask.
Glad Martin supplied you with the information you requested. Since he refused to answer basic questions on here, when asked.
This is why i keep saying talk to your tuner, this is the most important thing armed with information!
I do, on a regular basis. :D
You also mention you have a usb port for your tuning box for playing with the maps, can you supply some images of the maps and what exactly your getting to change with it ?
That I have, and no I shall not. Again, request from Hyundai Australia not to supply that information.
I really havn't had a look at your exact box (I have no idea what one it is even) so im not 100% sure of what it can do but if its only plugging into the fuel rail pressure sensor I believe it will only be modifying fuel pressure ;)
If you read this forum, and know that I have a USB programing cable, then you should have read in the same post what kind of box I have. :D
How does it get values like engine RPM and injector pulse widths if its only plugging into a pressure sensor ? Is it guessing these off what the common rail pressure is at ? How does it know what the pressure should be for any given RPM and boost level ?
I'd suggest you either speak with your tuner, or do some more research on this question. (I'm not here to spoon feed you all with information that I, myself, had to spend a lengthy amount of time to researching for)
I gather not all tuning boxes have this usb option to manipulate the way its acting.
Correct.
Was that a long winded yes, there is no knock sensor ? :) (good information though)
Well, here is some information, how would the ECU know how much fuel to use in the pilot injection, to reduce diesel 'clatter' if it can't hear what is going on? (Food for thought)
If your ECU is attempting to superheat the exaust gasses under these circumstances, what happens with the tuning box in the way, wont it be making the issue take longer to resolve for the ECU because its recieving false information from the sensor which is under/overfueling because thats the way the end user has set it ?. If its doing a 'burn' off of excess carbon in the filter and your commandling lower fuel pressure, that 'burn' off wont have completed properly if the ECU only does this for a specific amount of time.
Again I'd suggest you do some research or even ask your tuner about this. Some simple knowledge in this area would help.
Tricking sensors is not the best way to go, we have ECU's in our car to control these things why wouldnt you let that expensive bit of equipment do its job correctly ?
Again, please do some research into this matter. (IE: Operational parameters and tolerances)
I would class some of your PSI ratings as well outside the compressor's rating (I believe I've seen some 33+psi in some posts here), you cant tell me this is a safe setting and isn't over spinning the compressor
33+ PSI MAP, correct. The stock boost for a CRDi i30 manual.
Where are you reading the 33+PSI MAP from ?
Like I have explained before, and you have answered yourself, below, a Scanguage.
Comparing your stated boost from the scanguage($200 item) (I'll assume the scanguage (again please correct me if im wrong)) why is your boost numbers so much higher than the Dyno graph showing boost from DW Tuning which only shows 19psi boost max (a $120,000 industry standard item)
Again, I STRONGLY suggest you do some research into what MAP actually means. (HINT: Do you know what air pressure there is at sea level? DO you know what MAP actually stands for?)
both read their data from the diagnostic port(this is the only other example I have to go by since nobody else has supplied a dyno sheet showing this information). I would think feeding 33psi into the cylinder, compressing it , and burning it which would make it expand further from heat and firing it down the exhaust to the turbo would make a reading of atleast 33psi by the turbo.
This isnt a sh*t stir , I'm attempting to know where and how the 33+psi comes into play, so please no :rolleyes: etc in your responce.
Again, before posting long winded replies, please read what MAP actually stands for.
If you want huge amounts of power, and wish to spin the wheels, then the extra money spent on a ECU re-tune is what you are after. (If you are chasing this much extra power, be expected to purchase a new larger turbo with the proper flow ratings for the power output you are now tuning for.)
This is quite wrong, I dont know why you think the ecu edit is only for maximum HP, because your editing the ECU's inbuilt table you can control things infinitely delivering more/less fuel, more boost control wherever you want and any rpm range. I'm sure if the tuner is competent that they could also tune for maximum economy. This again would be something to make sure you discuss with your tuner.
As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?
Your suggestion was that ECU tuning is only for outright power which isnt factual because if asked im sure a reasonable tuner could also edit the CPU for maximum fuel economy. So lets say that you can infact do an outright output effort with a tunning box( you personally have mentioned wheelspin in second gear on boost) but because all your doing is tricking a sensor its not really the best method although good value for money that is if you dont mind the con's listed in the replies but love the pro's.
No, what I am simply saying is, if you want a higher power output than what a Tuningbox can provide, a ECU tune would be the preferred method. (Then again, ultimately I would use a completely separate engine management system if I was chasing ultimate power)
The Con with programing the ECU is you 'could' remove the safety parameters built into the ECU, thus pushing the engine/driveline past it's operational tolerances.
By modifying a sensors output, the ECU still has ultimate say in what happens to the engine. Go outside the operational safety parameters set by the factory, the ECU will limit any and all power to the engine. (How does the ECU know? By other sensors not touched by the tuningbox. IE: Like I have described before, the lambda sensor, airflow sensor, boost pressure, air inlet temp, Ect.)
Remember the tuning boxes are sold to the general public to play with and are essentially a variable resistor (programable to a minimal extent via usb or not) and probably do more harm than good in the wrong hands, much like an ECU edit done by a tuner that is clueless could do the same damage. Again, a decent conversation with a tuner would sort the men from the boys but only if you know what to ask I doubt you can have this sort of conversation with a tuning box manufacturer over the phone.
No, I have constant communications with a Bosch programmer/engineer who actually knows more about the Bosch ECU than a tuner would. (Since they design, manufacture and program the unit)
I'ts not something the home mechanic has the hardware or knowledge to do as "easy" as you stated if it was then there would be kits available for the home tuner to do so and the software would be able to interperet the ecu software eeprom, this is what the tuning hardware/software for my other car does.
If my 10year old car has this protection you can bet a new car has it and more (albiet you could brute force my 10 year old one in 24-48hrs) :). R&D on something like this is time consuming and costly, in the other thread there was complaint that it was a 10minute operation, clearly this isnt the case.
Correct, that is why I went straight to the source, the people that actually design, make and program the ECU.
Hardware encryption/decryption dongles are wonderful items. :cool:
I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. :mrgreen: I think were getting there slowly 8)
Likewise, I wish people to have factual information so they can make up their own minds in what they wish to do, without any personal, financial or otherwise clouding the outcome. :P
Anyways, enough from me. I'll leave you all to think about what has been said here. (I will not be discussing this further, nor in any more detail than I have already.)
-
Posts over a couple of reply's since i managed to hit the 20,000 char limit :eek:
I dont think we need to start whistling and attempting to appear elitist we are meant to be adults.
Just start at the begining, its the easiest :)
No, I just find it interesting that you have a certain interest in this matter, and I was right on my hunch. As another V8 Commodore owner who lives in Adelaide who also has had work performed on their vehicle by Martin and is a member of the LS1 forums, why am I not surprised at the long winded posts and lack on knowledge in the matter. (Not an attack, just a very astute observation)
Let's continue:
Ofcourse i have a certain interest in this, I own an i30, I like performance (as well as fuel economy when Im not blasting around) and i like to liven my cars up a bit from their factory settings. No secret here as isnt this what anyone wants to do when they look at tuning solutions ?
Its a shame you think this way it really is and please be my guest and ring Martin, I'll pay for the phone call from wherever you are and ask him if i have approached him regarding tuning of my i30 including any possible discount from him performing an ecu edit or what i'd get out of it if i came on here to push/sell his tune and people said they were from here and bought the mod because of these posts. I think you'll find both your hunch and astute observation is very wrong, continue to read...
It just so happens that the only person I know of that can do the direct ECU edit is Martin, if your able to suggest others that can do the same work in Australia im more than willing to talk to them too, something I've mentioned before but you seem to skip on by and provide no information on.
The only comment I have said to Martin recently is that i was looking at purchasing the car, the discussion with him was how good he thought the i30 was since he owns one and wanted an honest opinion. I'm willing to let a mod log onto my LS1.com.au account and read the PM, nothing to hide here.
Again its a shame that you think I'm on here pushing Martin's agenda as I have said a number of times in this thread I'm after accurate information if you dont think Martin is going to give me that,then how does anyone else realise something is wrong ? Open discussion is how.
I have also stated multiple times that I'm considering both options including stating that his "undetectable" ecu edit is infact detectable with basic odb tools, now stop and think , would I be saying something like that against one of his major selling points if i was pushing sales of his tuning package and have something to gain ?
Please have a think about that before jumping to conclusions about me or other people you really dont know atleast its now out in the open how you like to judge people without knowing them, atleast its here for all to see now. :cool:
I dont know why you would be asked to not say too much
Have a think about it. I'm sure the answer will come to you. (As I've explained previously in other posts as to why, I'm not going to repeat myself)
I cant guess why, I've stated that I know Martin from previous work he has performed on my car back in about 2001 and my knowledge comes from my own tuning my petrol engine car (which is all on its head for a diesel engine) yet its like pulling teeth on where your information gathering is from so that people can confirm it or poke the holes.
How confident are you that its not possible to throw a rod out of the side of the block because of the failure of the "man in the middle".
As long as the ECU receives signals form it's sensors within the set factory tolerances (Which are set rather low for safety of the equipment) then it will permit those changes.
Go outside these factory set tolerances (Which you can do with a ECU edit, something your tuner should have told you) then yes, expect to throw a leg out the side of the block, as you put it.
I dont need a tuner to explain absolutes and tollerances and the fact you can step outside of them, as I've said , I've personally tuned my own car and your right the ECU is not absolute in *every field* but in order to do its job correctly and efficiently it is reliant on factual information from its sensors to do its job properly. Why do you think there are so many ? it uses this information from all sensors to plan its next fuel delivery if its being lied to, it cant do its fuel delivery correctly in the case of something going wrong because youve played with a sensor.
As above I havn't approached Martin for a tune and the infinite details of exactly whats changed within (if he gives all that information is up to him ultimately as its his IP on how me does it) and what safetey margins may or may not be comprimised because im not wasting his time with silly questions , thats what forums are for :lol:
If you were to do a bit more reading you would also see that he is leaving said safety margins inplace also you seem to have missed the 2 or 3 times in this thread where I say that I havnt even made the decision yet and that tuning boxes are a great bang for your buck(doesnt that suggest im considering one?). I'm not here to sell any form of tuning despite your beliefs, I've attempted to show pro's and con's of both systems.
You skip around actually saying that you can go outside of factory limits with a tuning box and there is no possible way to hurt anything. Tell the users of unichips and other resistors in petrol engines that ended up with pre-ignition(engine knock)damaging pistons in the process when a sensor went bad or that static resistor was telling the ecu the wrong thing.
-
There are more than likely just as many if not more snake-oil variable resistors but i dont see you calling that style of system a hack
Because we are not discussing those kind of modifications, now, are we? To comment on them would be off-topic in this regard.
We are in a CRDi tuning thread :D Dont get me wrong here Ive said a few times bang for buck they're great but if people dont know the possibilities/restrictions and what can go wrong how do they make the informed decision we all desire about what is good vs bad for them but lets admit tuning box style addons that plug into the fuel rail are nothing but an upscale variable resistor regardless of the spin anyone tries to put on them because its not reading info from the ECU therefore does not know any other sensors readings to make SURE its commanding safe settings this is up to the ECU which is being lied to by a "man in the middle", your now 1 sensor down in safety margin and relying on all other sensors to attempt to make up this shortfall, lets hope other features like the wastegate do their job intime.
Im simply saying that tuning boxes arent as safe as you seem to believe or have everyone else believe. You wont nessicarily hit an EGT limit (which i believe is modelled in the i30 ECU not read from a sensor) so there's another sensor out of the picture, the lambda sensor (or oxygen sensor if you want to call it that) reads exhaust gas oxygen levels so its a little slow in seeing a problem since the event has allready happened , there's another sensor out of the picture, all of a sudden survival should something happen inside that tuning box are looking slim. Sensors are made/designed to do a job, not be played with. Yes there are "tollerances" in the ECU but these are set for safe limits for all sorts of driving conditions and environments to ensure that little oil burner up front survives the 5 years of warranty.
Is it because your attempting to justify the purchase price for a variable resistor ? So rather than class every ECU modification as a hack, how much have you discussed the technical side of the ECU tunes available in Australia with a tuner ?
Careful, sounds like Martin talking there. (I believe he used the same words in his previous posts)
I have no reason to justify my purchases. I enjoy what I do and make no money from what I do. :D
Yes, I would classify changing only the fuel map in the ECU as a hack. Dumping the entire ROM and changing every single parameter to suit, is a complete rewrite.
Yep, i'll admit pretty much quoted Martin because that seems to be whats going on. You never agree to any of the safety issues but instead post responses which avoid agreeing with those issues.
For example you dont ever call the tuning boxes which are only changing the fuel map/fuel delivery a hack but you call an edit that is only changing fueling a hack ? In your words, theyre both a hack if the edit is only changing fueling :)
Do tuningbox's sound feasable if we call them a hack ? no. Lets be fair on both mods one is as much of a hack as the other(IF the edit was only changing fueling) from your own description. If the ECU edit changes more than just fueling its not a hack, re-read Martins posts and since he does a little more like changing desired torque so the ECU doesnt attempt to pull back on power as much, we can safely call his an edit now not a hack but we still need to call the tuning boxes a hack. I'd rather not call either a hack but I'd rather know whats truely going on ;)
Yes we're talking about Martin again as nobody has told me, shown me nor have I seen any other ECU edit options available in Australia by any other tuner, including yourself or your "tuner" because youve not shared who it is, so there's no other version to discuss that is available to the Australians, no hidden motives, this is fact as far as i can tell!.
I admit to knowing Martin(and I did so in a couple of PM's to various people including a moderator I have no agenda here) he tuned my v8 initially before I spent $1300+ on the hardware with a completely different company to have a play and come to terms with it all during which time he provided answers to my questions , he was gaining no further $$$'s for his effort and didnt need to help but you dont know if you dont ask.
Glad Martin supplied you with the information you requested. Since he refused to answer basic questions on here, when asked.
All I can see he has failed to supply was a timed dyno run for lakes and people jumped on the bandwagon for the lack of understanding of dyno's as a tuning/measurement tool , as I've stated above this is going to be in another thread, your input to set me straight is more than welcome in there too.
Looking back at the thread again possibly he failed to supply an open invitation for people with i30's to turn up on his doorstep requesting test drives to see how well it goes with no intention of buying it, seriously how many business do you think would do that. Excuse me Mr Ferrari dealer, i want to see how well your car goes but i have no intention of buying it but some people on the internet dont believe your posted statistics .. I dont think the answer would be "go for it"!
What other questions did he fail to ask as i really cant see anything else, lets put them up here and i'll ring him tomorrow and ask since its a local call for me , or maybe another Adelaide member can do this since you think my input is compromised through a previous tune martin did to my car some 7+ years ago. Lets make a list and have him check it twice :lol: :razz:.
This is why i keep saying talk to your tuner, this is the most important thing armed with information!
I do, on a regular basis. :D
So if the "MICI tuningbox" is your tuning tool of choice are you now saying someone else is playing with its inbuilt mapping for you or did you go the ecu edit route (since you mention the hardware involved below) before you got rid of your car ? You've not really elaborated on this anywhere that i can see :(
You also mention you have a usb port for your tuning box for playing with the maps, can you supply some images of the maps and what exactly your getting to change with it ?
That I have, and no I shall not. Again, request from Hyundai Australia not to supply that information.
:eek: A request from Hyundai to not share the programable map of a product from a 3rd party tuning box that Hyundai have no ties with that has its own inbuilt *maps* that dont touch on any of the Hyundai IP, how strange. You dont seem to want to share information that is in the public realm. Your tuningbox maps arent top secret unless your tuner doesnt want you to show them around and thats fair enough, you can admit that though :). I simply cant find pages in english for the MICI tunningbox you have and exactly what yours allows you to modify :(
Is it because this *map* you speak of (Different to a MAP sensor for all those reading) can only a guess engine rpm because of fuel rail pressures ? Again , the tuningbox doesnt connect to any other sensor so it cant know engine RPM unless your modifying this *map* you keep talking of so the tuningbox can guestimate engine rpm from pressure recieved from the fuel rail pressure sensor.
I really havn't had a look at your exact box (I have no idea what one it is even) so im not 100% sure of what it can do but if its only plugging into the fuel rail pressure sensor I believe it will only be modifying fuel pressure ;)
If you read this forum, and know that I have a USB programing cable, then you should have read in the same post what kind of box I have. :D
Ok, so going back and searching , you have (or had since you dont have an i30 anymore but you might have kept it to gaze lovingly at still with fond memories) an MICI Tunningbox, ive struggled to find info in english for this :(
EDIT: Ok, found from the google page i have to keep clicking the englisch (yes thats right englisch) button at the top so i can read it but really cant see what you get to change with the programable version :(
-
Was that a long winded yes, there is no knock sensor ? :) (good information though)
Well, here is some information, how would the ECU know how much fuel to use in the pilot injection, to reduce diesel 'clatter' if it can't hear what is going on? (Food for thought)
I wouldnt class diesel clatter as safety feature more of an annoyance :) , so lets not lump the knock sensor in with those type sensors.
I'm not against being wrong, its how you learn, its better now than after it costs me or someone an engine or worse.
If your ECU is attempting to superheat the exaust gasses under these circumstances, what happens with the tuning box in the way, wont it be making the issue take longer to resolve for the ECU because its recieving false information from the sensor which is under/overfueling because thats the way the end user has set it ?. If its doing a 'burn' off of excess carbon in the filter and your commandling lower fuel pressure, that 'burn' off wont have completed properly if the ECU only does this for a specific amount of time.
Again I'd suggest you do some research or even ask your tuner about this. Some simple knowledge in this area would help.
How do you expect other people that read this are going to go with that responce, im sure some will have basic issues understanding we have glow plugs and not spark plugs :D
Tricking sensors is not the best way to go, we have ECU's in our car to control these things why wouldnt you let that expensive bit of equipment do its job correctly ?
Again, please do some research into this matter. (IE: Operational parameters and tolerances)
This thread is that information/research for alot more people that just me. Why cant you simply agree that any sort of aftermarket man in the middle addon isnt going to do the job the ECU can allready do, whether it be economy or performance. My previous experience of a Unichip vs editing my ECU directly on my other car says they cant , if you believe its different because of some new technology then please explain and not just skip on by leaving everyone wondering what your getting at.
Again, I STRONGLY suggest you do some research into what MAP actually means. (HINT: Do you know what air pressure there is at sea level? DO you know what MAP actually stands for?)
Manifold Absolute Pressure (even google could answer this for you). Since you seem to know so much about me from me having a v8 (ls1 engine) and having some work done by Martin in the past and being on an LS1 forum (lets see I own an i30 and i'm on an i30 forum is that really such a coincidence?), youd also know from your research on me that I removed the MAF (Mass air flow) meter from my car and tuned only utilising the MAP sensor for airflow (also called SD (speed density) tuning for others reading these posts) and have a dedicated wideband sensor in the exhaust but lets get back on track.
I've not played with boosted engines before, so forgive me if its a bit foreign, as suggested this wasnt a stirr.
Boost guages reading in PSI run off of the inlet manifold for all the boy racers to enjoy :D :lol: which is where your reading your MAP value (in kpa) from, simple question of why 19psi vs 33psi but instead you want to make it cryptic for all.
I'm really not sure where your attempting to head with this one.
Again, before posting long winded replies, please read what MAP actually stands for.
They're long winded because I like people to understand and see where im coming from and have as much information as they need to make a decent contribution back. As above MAP is simple enough, where is all that pressure in the manifold coming from, the turbo is providing it to the manifold which inturn enters the cylinder when the valve event happens to allow it.
As I said, if you are chasing maximum power, then a ECU flash is what you are after. How can I be wrong with that comment?
No, what I am simply saying is, if you want a higher power output than what a Tuningbox can provide, a ECU tune would be the preferred method. (Then again, ultimately I would use a completely separate engine management system if I was chasing ultimate power)
The Con with programing the ECU is you 'could' remove the safety parameters built into the ECU, thus pushing the engine/driveline past it's operational tolerances.
By modifying a sensors output, the ECU still has ultimate say in what happens to the engine. Go outside the operational safety parameters set by the factory, the ECU will limit any and all power to the engine. (How does the ECU know? By other sensors not touched by the tuningbox. IE: Like I have described before, the lambda sensor, airflow sensor, boost pressure, air inlet temp, Ect.)
I dont think its as black and white as you seem to describe. Oxygen/Lambda sensor is reading oxygen in the exhaust gas after the event, EGT(exhaust gas temperature) post event (modeled not read), ECT (engine coolant temp) this would possibly play a part if the event has been happening over a long period enough to actually heat the cooling system dramatically in which case hopefully youd be noticing that temp guage :D. You can still have all of these devices and more read normal until its too late.
Remember the tuning boxes are sold to the general public to play with and are essentially a variable resistor (programable to a minimal extent via usb or not) and probably do more harm than good in the wrong hands, much like an ECU edit done by a tuner that is clueless could do the same damage. Again, a decent conversation with a tuner would sort the men from the boys but only if you know what to ask I doubt you can have this sort of conversation with a tuning box manufacturer over the phone.
No, I have constant communications with a Bosch programmer/engineer who actually knows more about the Bosch ECU than a tuner would. (Since they design, manufacture and program the unit)
Since no one person at any large company would do all those functions, i class this as an agree, not a home tuner 10minute job , excellent :D A seperate department will engineer , a seperate department will come up with the firmware/ROM/OS a seperate part of Bosch would manufacture and another part @ Hyundai or Outsourced to another 3rd party would create the tune data that works on their car to meet the EURO/ADR spec required, this is how its worked for other cars. Lets use another analagy to show this, If you were to work at a transport agency, would one person be designing, engineering , setting road rules and laying the road, no way, you have a specific job you specialise in.
I'ts not something the home mechanic has the hardware or knowledge to do as "easy" as you stated if it was then there would be kits available for the home tuner to do so and the software would be able to interperet the ecu software eeprom, this is what the tuning hardware/software for my other car does.
If my 10year old car has this protection you can bet a new car has it and more (albiet you could brute force my 10 year old one in 24-48hrs) :). R&D on something like this is time consuming and costly, in the other thread there was complaint that it was a 10minute operation, clearly this isnt the case.
Correct, that is why I went straight to the source, the people that actually design, make and program the ECU.
Hardware encryption/decryption dongles are wonderful items. :cool:
Did you have a go at an ecu edit instead of the tuningbox? , why else would you have hardware to look at the ECU ROM and have the ability to modify it when you probably could have contacted someone to just supply you the ROM if you just wanted a looksie. If you had the hardware, why would you trick your ECU by adding the tuningbox still, seems a strange circumstance indeed.
What software did you use to view the ROM data and work out what bit values where used in what table ?
I wish everyone the best with modifying their cars too so lets help them make informed decisions given all the benefits and pitfalls of both options not a one-eyed view of one system. :mrgreen: I think were getting there slowly 8)
Likewise, I wish people to have factual information so they can make up their own minds in what they wish to do, without any personal, financial or otherwise clouding the outcome. :P
Anyways, enough from me. I'll leave you all to think about what has been said here. (I will not be discussing this further, nor in any more detail than I have already.)
Thanks for your input Thumper (and I really do mean that regardless of if you think i have an agenda here) Its a shame you dont want to continue as there are still some fuzzy areas for me , which means they will be more than fuzzy for others :) if you want to answer some in PM and not contribute back to this thread i'd still be interested to hear from you as this really isnt a dig @ Thumper thread.
This thread was not meant to turn into a you & me back and forth thing as I was hoping there were a few more people that have had experience in both area's with some technical knowledge to fling around.
You've contributed a fair bit by posting experiences with your tuningbox along the way and with other experiments like the intercooler cover.
Cheers
-
O.k.. I read half posts written above, than I decided to skip and to write some of my "experiences" with tuning CRDi engines..
I've had my previous car (Hyundai Accent 1.5 CRDI 07') tunned - ECU (via OBD) (by known tuners in our country) from it's stock 110 hp to approx 135 hp and torque from it's stock 235 Nm to approx 280 Nm.. I must mention that I did take care of my car more then before it was tuned, so I had none problems. It was tuned when it had approx 18.000 km and sold it when it had 60.000 km.
Then i bought my i30 1.6 CRDI 90 hp that I own now and after a while I went to the same tuners and had my i30 tuned as well. From it's original 90 hp to approx 115 hp and it's torque from it's original 235 Nm to approx 275 Nm. The difference is remarkable. I just love how it drives now and so far so good.. I must say that I didn't decide to tune the car because I wanted to race or something with it, just for safer overtaking and things like that.. And yes, I definitely take care that I never push the "pedal to the metal" when the car is cold, I drive it at approx 2.000-2.500 rpm for first 15-20 kms and later I slowly "intensify" my way of driving if it's needed. Before I turn my car off, I always wait so the turbo can cool down (if I've been driving the car a bit "hard" or if I've been driving it for a long time)... But mostly I just use the torque for normal everyday but dynamical driving..
Tuning the car logically means more load/pressure on other parts of the vehicle which can result in shorter lifetime of some parts - especially turbo, gearbox, clutch,.. If you drive it reasonably, the lifetime of those parts shouldn't be much shorter then normally, but in case of a reckless behavior-driving, you can't expect the car to last for a long time.. I know you all know that but I had to write it anyway :) :wink:
I also "know" 2 people that have installed tuning boxes in their CRDI engines and their cars have been working fine for now..
Have a nice turbo day 8)
-
where do we get these tuning boxes again? can someone PM me please.
who was the member down in geelong/victoria who got the tune box? i'd like to hear thier opinion of it.
-
where do we get these tuning boxes again? can someone PM me please.
who was the member down in geelong/victoria who got the tune box? i'd like to hear thier opinion of it.
http://autotechnik-saretz.de/ (http://autotechnik-saretz.de/) was the site, ASA Eco with Bosch 1 Adapter was what the photo's on the forum were titled.
I'd be tempted to have a look at one and maybe use it for a yardstick against a real ecu edit, although im more tempted by the one Thumper bought that allows you to play with a map (of sorts) to fine tune the device.
-
This thread is an all time classic :)
Poor old Epoch copping it from someone in 'Constant Touch with the Bosch ECU Engineers'. Thats some seriously funny stuff right there....now ask about blocking off the intercooler airflow to improve power and economy...thats another great chestnut right there Epoch. You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com. It doesnt have to make sense, and can happily defy both physics and logic, it just has to be thumpers opinion :lol:
-
This thread is an all time classic :)
Poor old Epoch copping it from someone in 'Constant Touch with the Bosch ECU Engineers'. Thats some seriously funny stuff right there....now ask about blocking off the intercooler airflow to improve power and economy...thats another great chestnut right there Epoch. You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com. It doesnt have to make sense, and can happily defy both physics and logic, it just has to be thumpers opinion :lol:
Enough of the Thumper bashing please .. he sold his i30 and bought a 4WD.. (and doesn't visit these parts any more) ... so thumperforums must be a figment of your imagination.... :wink:
-
This thread is an all time classic :)
Poor old Epoch copping it from someone in 'Constant Touch with the Bosch ECU Engineers'. Thats some seriously funny stuff right there....now ask about blocking off the intercooler airflow to improve power and economy...thats another great chestnut right there Epoch. You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com. It doesnt have to make sense, and can happily defy both physics and logic, it just has to be thumpers opinion :lol:
Here we go again.
I'm not going to re read all of Thumpers post, but Martin can you please show me where Thumper mentioned an intercooler cover improves performance? I've heard him mention plenty of times that he has found in testing that economy improves, but never power, if anything I'm sure he has mentioned that there is a loss in performance, which is what you would expect from warmer air.
There's another recent thread regarding fuel economy in colder months, personally I've found found post intercooler temps in the 30's to low 40's seems to be the best temp for economy, anything cooler seems to increase consumption, so when I go for a drive here in Newcastle at night and the temps are down into single digits, or cruising down the F3 to my parents place (with temps in the low teens) my economy gets worse, compared to when ambient air temp is in the low 20's, which gives you a rough IAT of 30-40C.
I haven't tested a cover on my vehicle, I don't know what to use, I'm worried whatever I use may melt/burn/something detrimental to the well being of the car.
For me I have to see things happen to comprehend them, I have a much better practical mind than a theoretical one. So it's all well and good saying that my pieces of paper that were printed out of a super duper computer (or by a complex set of equations from a clever mind etc etc) say that this is or isn't so, but sometimes things happen differently in the real world.
I do believe that there is an optimal temperature for economy in the i30, and I do believe that there is a point where the air can be to cold and have a detrimental effect, I don't exactly know the why, so I'm not going to make a fool of myself trying to explain.
All the best with your ECU crack Martin.
Regards
Daniel
-
...You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com.
For a bright bloke, it is rather immature of you to troll the forum...
-
...You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com.
For a bright bloke, it is rather immature of you to troll the forum...
Not a troll Shambles. Just a great example of how some poor soul like Epoch comes on these forums he gets lambasted with really silly incorrect 'technical' posts from a know-nothing. Some bloke that claims to be in the know and hang with 'Bosch Engineers'....well I hate to tell you lads but all the Bosch 'engineering' that goes into the i30 controller comes directly out of Seoul. Hyundai technical here have a code scanner and clearer....thats a fact.
While your forum is aggressive towards new members and allows any of its technical discussion to be founded on ignorance in the hope of building greater online ego, you arent going to build a great membership base. Look how this site has stalled in the past six months. Dont believe? Then being a moderator have a look through the PMs I get from members here. Its a shame really as the i30 is a great little car and deserves better than this 8)
-
Martin,
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts.
I can't comment on the technical veracity of some of the engine management & control systems posts made on the forum, or indeed any of your own technically-oriented postings, and I'm sure that applies to many other readers too. That doesn't prevent me enjoying their content nor revelling in the enthusiasm with which they have been made. What I do hate reading are comments made with a "holier than thou" attitude.
Where is the aggression towards new members that you mentioned?
As for the site stalling... it is true that the novelty of this brand new model is settling down now, so maybe you are right in that the focus should shift from joviality & jubilation to more technical discussions. That, however, might preclude 95% of the member base from contributing. Please remember, though, that the club was set up to provide an arena wherein i30 owners could chat and discuss their experiences, not necessarily limited to their i30.
...Then being a moderator have a look through the PMs I get from members here....
Martin, your private messages can only be viewed by you
-
Hi Martin,
We are happy with our forum and its steadily growing following...
If you look at the dates you are going over old ground.. This particular discussion got out of hand (and was "sorted")
There is no room on here for anyone with an ego.. Shambles and I get regular feedback from members about what an enjoyable place this is to visit and when heated discussions occur like the one in this thread we are equally encouraged to do something about it (which we did) ..
-
tbh i dont give much for what the fabricators says the tuning box does... i trust more on what ppl say that got the hardware installed and use it everyday.. :)
Hey Zhangster, did you decide to buy a tuningbox?
-
This thread is an all time classic :)
Poor old Epoch copping it from someone in 'Constant Touch with the Bosch ECU Engineers'. Thats some seriously funny stuff right there....now ask about blocking off the intercooler airflow to improve power and economy...thats another great chestnut right there Epoch. You will learn about posting against the grain on thumperforums.com. It doesnt have to make sense, and can happily defy both physics and logic, it just has to be thumpers opinion :lol:
I've tried to go over this however nobody really has any technical data unlike what youve posted. Thumper being the only one thats apparently had some sort of play (lots of smoke here cant see exactly what/how) so his name comes up alot, however most of his playing seem to have been to limit the i30's fuel supply to get better range which he apparently did, with the help of finding a sweet spot of sorts to get better fuel economy from IAT which apparently he did its not something ive got the time or desire it investigate at the moment.
Shambles has a tuningbox and it fills the little torque hole he wanted filled but doesnt really let him fiddle with it much either way for a little more or a little less power/economy so for price and availability to him (europe) then it was easy and does the job in the seat of his pants :).
I have just tried to impart from my own experiences that tuning boxes while cheap and somewhat effective for what people want from them they are really just tricking a main engine sensor, while going for a more complete engine base code change via ECU allows all the sensors to read corectly without a man in the middle and imho from past experiences is a better way.
I guess the issue here is I dont know if anyones taken you up on your offer yet, how and who you've sold these too is really none of my/our business so I think there is a lack of proof in real 'i have to see it to believe it' forum terms to help sway the masses, i don't know if its a scared to post thing or what :-[.
I dont think alot of people here are after the more power from the car as its probably more of an economy choice of car for alot of people, like it was for me but comparing the v8 its laughable !
As I've recently said the only issue i have with your way is its somewhat permanent and i cant easilly get rid of it before a service which to me makes its discovery a bit easier with some obd tools to see its boosting earlier/more.(how much is a 2nd spare ecu for dealer servicing ? :D)
The only way I think things can improve from here is to get some real seat of the pants stuff going and I'll probably take the plunge, to get an install done could it be done a saturday and maybe get a couple of the local Adelaide/SA guys can come watch as evidence of the procedure, before/after dyno's. I'm going to close my eyes as someone steers a fwd on a dyno , I assume its an interesting experience :eek:
I know you've said removing the standard exhaust/intake seem to make no difference over stock, where would the quest begin for a little more again come from, cams ? intake/exhaust porting ?. Are we close to the turbo's compressor limit with the a/c on and a couple of psi more boost ?/
Just wondering if youve delved into it much :)
-
Thumper being the only one thats apparently had some sort of play (lots of smoke here cant see exactly what/how) so his name comes up alot, however most of his playing seem to have been to limit the i30's fuel supply to get better range which he apparently did, with the help of finding a sweet spot of sorts to get better fuel economy from IAT which apparently he did its not something ive got the time or desire it investigate at the moment.
I can tell you right now that Thumper didn't just use the box for economy. He gave a very nice demo during the Blue Mountains meet back in Jan, what the car could do when set to performance mode. Even in this mode he still had better economy than stock, plus reduced IAT for some reason.........
Regards
Daniel
-
Daniel, if i remember, thumper said he made a compleat exhast system just a pipe from turbo back, but did not use it all the time. if i am not mistaken i think he said he had that system on to test when he did that run. that could acount for lower Manifold temps( maybe) but i also rember Thumper talking in a round about way that not many would understand what he was saying, but i took it to mean he fitted water meth injection, this will definately lower intake manifold temps. this is used a lot with forced induction .
just how i read it, i could be wrong.
-
Hi John...
I like that...
"Take my Advice ( i'm not useing it anyway )"
and the new avatar... :lol:
-
well i can tell you i found in croatia one place that does tuning of i30 crdi 116 hp very nice
there are two versions...
116 HP / 255 nm -> 140 HP / 307 nm -> 300 Euros
116 HP / 255 nm -> 158 HP / 322 nm -> 500 Euros
i checked them out.. they are first hand for Bosch service and parts in Croatia. Everyone has to buy from them... and few firends told me that theyr service was clean as a lab :)
I asked my Hyundai service... he told me i'm prety safe with tuning to 158 HP .. he know my habits of driving :)... he is first choice and only place for tuning hyundai in croatia if you want done it properly... they've done 10+ hyundai conversions to turbo.. and latest is v6 2.7 coupe with supercharger .. and this thing fly's..... :D
-
well i can tell you i found in croatia one place that does tuning of i30 crdi 116 hp very nice
there are two versions...
116 HP / 255 nm -> 140 HP / 307 nm -> 300 Euros
116 HP / 255 nm -> 158 HP / 322 nm -> 500 Euros
i checked them out.. they are first hand for Bosch service and parts in Croatia. Everyone has to buy from them... and few firends told me that theyr service was clean as a lab :)
I asked my Hyundai service... he told me i'm prety safe with tuning to 158 HP .. he know my habits of driving :)... he is first choice and only place for tuning hyundai in croatia if you want done it properly... they've done 10+ hyundai conversions to turbo.. and latest is v6 2.7 coupe with supercharger .. and this thing fly's..... :D
Sounds good andrejs, let us know how it goes, also how economy is. why do they quote power in HP not KW? normally you see KW/NM but if it is HP they will measure the TQ in foot pound, if you measure power in KW the number will look lower than measuring in HP, and same goes for Foot Pound of Torque you get a lower number measureing in Ft Lb than in nm like 630nm is only about 450Ft Lb of TQ, i normally like to use HP/Ft Lb as thats what i have mostly always used Dyno Testing.
keep us up to date on how your car goes and what tune you went with, is this an ECU program upgrade? or a tuning box?
-
If you run more than 140bhp, you will either have to much black smoke or your turbo won't last to long.
Because the I30/Ceed has a GT1544VB turbo, that handles 1.5bar as max boost. If you go over that pressure, your turbo won't last more than 1000Km!
That pressure on a well tuned dyno, with good fuel feeding hands out ~140Bhp and 300Nm (this values are with 1.575bar of peak boost), so.. that 2nd version is not safe at all!
-
So you are saying 22psi boost is maxium safe boost pressure for the turbo the i30 CRDi comes with?
-
The stock peak pressure is 1.3Bar (18.85Psi). If you don't want any trouble with the turbo you should not go over 1.5Bar (21.75Psi). With this pressure you're still in the "safe zone".
1.6bar (23.02PSi) depending on your driving style.. the turbo will not last to long!
I've been there....
-
The stock peak pressure is 1.3Bar (18.85Psi). If you don't want any trouble with the turbo you should not go over 1.5Bar (21.75Psi). With this pressure you're still in the "safe zone".
1.6bar (23.02PSi) depending on your driving style.. the turbo will not last to long!
I've been there....
I've not changed the boost in any way. According to the Scanguage II I have fitted, I've seen boost pressures in excess of 30psi under acceleration. Normal driving gives me around 16.5psi. As soon as the a/c cuts in this rises to around 18psi.
Now, the pressures I refer to are in effect much less when you take off the atmospheric pressure of around 14.5psi.
Which pressure are we referring to here? Intake manafold pressure or intake manafold pressure - atmosphic pressure.
Bob
Bob
-
Bob, i saw that too, but i think you would need a specialty gauge like a liquid filled Auto Meter boost gauge to get 100% accurate readings to really know, specially if you have changed boost from stock. i was thinking about fitting one of those gauges ( good tool)
like this http://www.marshallinstruments.com/products/5411.cfm
-
Lakes,
that would be a very good idea.
ouri30,
I mean the intake manafold pressure. Here is what happens when you give it to much pressure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_3-IEdVbTc
It can get worse, if the oil reaches the engine it will self detonate, and the car will rev to max rpm.... till it blows:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-pxsViKF88
If you turn it off, it will still run. Best thing to do is put a high gear (4th or 5th) and just release the clutch.
-
ouri30,
I mean the intake manafold pressure. Here is what happens when you give it to much pressure:
Ok. The MAP reported by the Scanguage II is 16.5psi with minimal acceleration. Medium acceleration is low 20psi and full acceleration without flogging it is 30+psi. I'm not one to push it to the max just to see what I can get as a maximum MAP.
I would assume the MAP I am observing are well within the limits set by the ECU. These figures are outside the figures you have indicated as safe.
As an adjunct to this, the MAP I am seening on my Santa Fe CRDi 2.2 are slightly higher than those of the i30.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just reporting what I am observing. Anyone with a Scanguage fitted can confirm the readings I am getting.
Bob
-
to Lakes: in Croatia we use HP and NM ... kw is in official papers, but everyone talks in HP not kw :D
i'll problably be doing chip tuning in fall, cose i'm geting married in august (second time... whis me luck :D ) so every extra bit of money is going towards that for now... i hope to have it tuned by october.. and then i'll decide whice map i'll use :D
and this is ECU software update over OBDII interface
to freakzoide: i know there is diferent turbine in i30... for 90 HP and 115 HP .. whcih one did you get.. i was browsing garret web site and found out that turbine used in i30 is rated for 150 HP and engine size from 1.0 to 1.6 L so... 8 HP extra should not be a problem
-
Ok. The MAP reported by the Scanguage II is 16.5psi with minimal acceleration. Medium acceleration is low 20psi and full acceleration without flogging it is 30+psi. I'm not one to push it to the max just to see what I can get as a maximum MAP.
I would assume the MAP I am observing are well within the limits set by the ECU. These figures are outside the figures you have indicated as safe.
As an adjunct to this, the MAP I am seening on my Santa Fe CRDi 2.2 are slightly higher than those of the i30.
Those values are EXTREMELY high (for a standar car)! Your readings probably have some problems, (some configuration must be wrong).
The WTCC cars run at 2.5Bar which is ~36Psi. Here a video of a 2.0Tdi engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajIsE6gBoQo
On a VNT17 Turbo (capable of more bost), instead of the VNT15 that the I30/Ceed have!
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just reporting what I am observing.
:) No problem. It's a forum... everyone should give their input on issues! :)
andrejs,
I have a 115bhp Kia Ceed (remaped). It's a I30 on a different body shell. From what I've read from a Kia mechanic on a different forum, the only difference on the 90bhp and the 115bhp is only electronics!
-
Freakzoide, thanks for posting, it is always good to know your limits. there is a limit for everything, metalurgists and engineers, break things to learn there limits. i had a friend that designed pistons, he had a special engine dyno room that was built to withstand a lot, he would run motors on it, and take reading then increase loads and pressures till he had piston failure.
two weeks ago i saw a top fuel Dragster Hydralic the motor ( after breaking traction under load) was a young racer, when the fueler broke traction she did not back off kept it wide open and it blow the top right off the block like a bomb. no warranty on that one :lol:
cheers
Hey Andrejs all the best & good luck on your upcoming marrage :)
-
Ok. The MAP reported by the Scanguage II is 16.5psi with minimal acceleration. Medium acceleration is low 20psi and full acceleration without flogging it is 30+psi. I'm not one to push it to the max just to see what I can get as a maximum MAP.
I would assume the MAP I am observing are well within the limits set by the ECU. These figures are outside the figures you have indicated as safe.
As an adjunct to this, the MAP I am seening on my Santa Fe CRDi 2.2 are slightly higher than those of the i30.
Those values are EXTREMELY high (for a standar car)! Your readings probably have some problems, (some configuration must be wrong).
The WTCC cars run at 2.5Bar which is ~36Psi. Here a video of a 2.0Tdi engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajIsE6gBoQo
On a VNT17 Turbo (capable of more bost), instead of the VNT15 that the I30/Ceed have!
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, just reporting what I am observing.
:) No problem. It's a forum... everyone should give their input on issues! :)
andrejs,
I have a 115bhp Kia Ceed (remaped). It's a I30 on a different body shell. From what I've read from a Kia mechanic on a different forum, the only difference on the 90bhp and the 115bhp is only electronics!
I really don't think there is a problem with my figures. As I understand it, you need to take atmosphic pressure (around 14.5psi) off the MPA pressure to get the real boost pressure. I suspect your figures refer to the difference between MAP pressure and atmospheric pressure (boost pressure).
Hence 30psi MAP is 15.5psi boost (the difference between MAP and atmospheric pressure). The ECU doesn't know the atmospheric pressure and reports MAP as the pressure inside the intake, but the real boost is the difference.
That is my understanding of boost and was also the opinion of Thumper in a posting somewhere else on this forum.
Bob
-
I really don't think there is a problem with my figures. As I understand it, you need to take atmosphic pressure (around 14.5psi) off the MPA pressure to get the real boost pressure. I suspect your figures refer to the difference between MAP pressure and atmospheric pressure (boost pressure).
Hence 30psi MAP is 15.5psi boost (the difference between MAP and atmospheric pressure). The ECU doesn't know the atmospheric pressure and reports MAP as the pressure inside the intake, but the real boost is the difference.
That is my understanding of boost and was also the opinion of Thumper in a posting somewhere else on this forum.
Bob
Hi Bob.. that sounds logical to me :) (but what do I know... :P)
-
Bob te scangauge tells manifold pressure, the turbo builds up the pressure, but this gauge i showed tells both normal manifold vacume and it tell's turbo boost, the pressure at the turbo is what Freakzoide is talking about, the total pressure in the intake manifold is not the load the turbine has to support its the boost pressure, the GT in model means it uses ball bearings, they spin more freely but don't take high loads. but i'm just useing common sence i'm no expert, just trying to explain it as i see it.
-
ouri30 ,
Yep.. it seems we're talking about different things! And I think Lakes nailed the problem! :)
-
Hi!
I am planning to buy this tuning box for my car.
http://www.kcr.se/render_page_vs.asp?pageid=33&vehicleid=2194
It is expensive, but they have 30 days money back if not satisfied, 2 years warranty and they have a 80.000 km engine warranty (in Sweden).
Power increase: 140hp>160hp. Torque increase: 305Nm>355Nm.
It is a lot of money, so i have not decided yet....
Any suggestions?
Cheers:
SRT Metro
-
Hi!
I am planning to buy this tuning box for my car.
http://www.kcr.se/render_page_vs.asp?pageid=33&vehicleid=2194
It is expensive, but they have 30 days money back if not satisfied, 2 years warranty and they have a 80.000 km engine warranty (in Sweden).
Power increase: 140hp>160hp. Torque increase: 305Nm>355Nm.
It is a lot of money, so i have not decided yet....
Any suggestions?
Cheers:
SRT Metro
You are right .. it is not cheap... around A$1150 or
650 euros
The tuning box Shambles uses (and is happy with) was about quarter of that I think..
The warranty and money back offers are good but you won't know if they are genuine until you need to act on them :idea:
-
The tuning box Shambles uses (and is happy with) was about quarter of that I think..
Absolutely happy with. I removed it for her second service tomorrow (I asked them to check for ECU upgrades, so didn't want the device *ahem* present). Makes such a difference to the drive with it disconnected. I collect her tomorrow after the 25K mile service.
Was so sluggish today compared with the boost you get with a low-end "fooled you" electrickery box attached :D
-
Hi!
I am planning to buy this tuning box for my car.
http://www.kcr.se/render_page_vs.asp?pageid=33&vehicleid=2194
It is expensive, but they have 30 days money back if not satisfied, 2 years warranty and they have a 80.000 km engine warranty (in Sweden).
Power increase: 140hp>160hp. Torque increase: 305Nm>355Nm.
It is a lot of money, so i have not decided yet....
Any suggestions?
Cheers:
SRT Metro
thats a big power and Torque increase they claim. is this for a 2.0 CRDi?
-
I removed it for her second service tomorrow (I asked them to check for ECU upgrades, so didn't want the device *ahem* present). Makes such a difference to the drive with it disconnected. I collect her tomorrow after the 25K mile service.
Any upgrades I need to be aware of?
If so, did it run any better than before?
-
Any upgrades I need to be aware of?
If so, did it run any better than before?
Nothing was showing on their system when I asked them earlier tonight.
-
Thank you Shambles for the info about your tuning box....
I found one on Ebay UK for my car.... Price very good... 87 GBP + 9 GBP for postage to Sweden.
Power increase: 140hp>165hp. Torque increase: 305Nm>360Nm. Topspeed 205km/h>217km/h.
Can i mount it on a brand new car with only 1500km on the speedo or should i wait a while before i mount it?
Cheers:
SRT Metro
-
Can i mount it on a brand new car with only 1500km on the speedo or should i wait a while before i mount it?
Why wait? The benefits will be felt immediately.
Just make sure to set the dial to around the 9 o'clock mark. Some members have fitted the tuningbox without setting the booster dial :)
-
I will remember that....
Thanks again...
SRT Metro
-
Power increase: 140hp>160hp. Torque increase: 305Nm>355Nm.
thats a big power and Torque increase they claim. is this for a 2.0 CRDi?
Yes, it is for a 2.0 CRDi.
-
Found - Another alternative if considering a tuning upgrade for your i30.
I'm not suggesting this is a better option than any that have already been found or put forward. It is just another alternative.
Interestingly, it is not a plug'n'play option - it is a reprogramming of the ECU (or PCM) even though the name "Powerchip" gives the impression it is an add-on chip. The 1.6 CRDi version costs more than the 2.0 diesel version. I found this when researching possible upgrades for the Santa Fe 2.2 CRDi.
There are some petrol engined versions available, but none seem to be for the i30 petrol.
Here's the link to the website http://www.powerchipgroup.com/index.asp (http://www.powerchipgroup.com/index.asp). Just select the year, the make and the model to see the specs.
Bob
-
Interestingly, it is not a plug'n'play option - it is a reprogramming of the ECU (or PCM) even though the name "Powerchip" gives the impression it is an add-on chip. The 1.6 CRDi version costs more than the 2.0 diesel version. I found this when researching possible upgrades for the Santa Fe 2.2 CRDi.
There are some petrol engined versions available, but none seem to be for the i30 petrol.
Here's the link to the website http://www.powerchipgroup.com/index.asp (http://www.powerchipgroup.com/index.asp). Just select the year, the make and the model to see the specs.
Bob
Hi Bob
Thanks for that...
I think the 2.0i is the petrol i30 (remembering that the 2.0 diesel is not sold in Australia and the "before" power and torque figures are in line with the petrol model) only A$690 or so compared to over A$1200 for the diesel :'(
-
Interestingly, it is not a plug'n'play option - it is a reprogramming of the ECU (or PCM) even though the name "Powerchip" gives the impression it is an add-on chip. The 1.6 CRDi version costs more than the 2.0 diesel version. I found this when researching possible upgrades for the Santa Fe 2.2 CRDi.
There are some petrol engined versions available, but none seem to be for the i30 petrol.
Here's the link to the website http://www.powerchipgroup.com/index.asp (http://www.powerchipgroup.com/index.asp). Just select the year, the make and the model to see the specs.
Bob
Hi Bob
Thanks for that...
I think the 2.0i is the petrol i30 (remembering that the 2.0 diesel is not sold in Australia and the "before" power and torque figures are in line with the petrol model) only A$690 or so compared to over A$1200 for the diesel :'(
Your probably right Dazz. I never looked at the power and torque figures. If that is the case, then that has to be the first tuning upgrade we've seen for the petrol.
Bob
-
i know this is an old thread. I was absent from forum for a long time... and i was writing here before...
I did not want to start new thread for the CRDI Tuning...
Here is my experience....
i was waiting for my service to start tuning diesel engines... so they startred around new year. i was the first one :), my i30 was test subject. i now have 136hp and 306 NM and 0-100 kmh 8,6 sec :). there is no problem with it even after around 10.000 km :) oil is the same color no errors and so on
still I'm waiting for a CAI (cold air intake) that's in the works. should be up and running in week or two. :)
I'll write in separate thread about modifications done, and what i plan on my car :D
-
should be up and ruining in week or two. :)
Thanks for the update... I hope your spelling or typo error is not an omen...
-
should be up and ruining in week or two. :)
Thanks for the update... I hope your spelling or typo error is not an omen...
ah... well my native language is Croatian, so... there will be some spelling errors in my writing
p.s. i corrected it :)
-
You're right my friend.. your english is very good ( it was just a funny coincidence) :razz:
I can only do a tiny bit of French :wink: :razz:
-
:) nice i did study French for few years in grade school and i know only few words ...
but English i learned watching TV :) (sky one as kid and etc) and reading a lot of books in English as i was growing older :) , English is almost like my second native language ...
I'll wait a little to see if moderators and admins will take my advice about opening new part of the forum for member cars projects ... and if not.. I'll post in diesel part of forum about modifications I've done and that I'm planing to do on my car :)