[rustynutz]

I happened upon this oldish editorial from motorcycle magazine "Cycle Torque" and it got me wondering as to just how much this sort of thing goes on..... 


NOVEMBER 20, 2012
CHRIS PICKETT

I HAVE recently received both a phone call and email from a rider who was concerned about the manner in which he was issued a Traffic Infringement Notice (TIN) by a NSW police officer.
Before we go into the details of what happened I must say that I wasn’t there and cannot confirm if the details happened exactly as described by this Cycle Torque reader, but as a former NSW police officer myself I would hope they weren’t exactly as described.

That said there seems to be enough anecdotal evidence to suggest the police in these situations aren’t playing fair. The situation involves said rider cruising along the Old Pacific Highway, just north of Sydney.
As the rider comes around the bend a 4WD parked on the side of the road suddenly pulls out in front of the rider, not forcing him to apply the brakes suddenly, but nonetheless giving him slight cause for concern re the driver’s actions.

The 4WD continues along the road in the same direction, travelling below the posted speed limit, then moves over to the left as if to ‘invite’ the rider to come past, almost as if the driver is saying ‘sorry for pulling out on you’.
The rider sees it is clear and safe, overtakes the 4WD, over double unbroken separation lines, and continues on his merry way, wondering what that was all about.
A few hundred yards or so down the road the rider is pulled over by police officers, sitting stationary on the side of the road and he is informed he’s been filmed overtaking a vehicle over double unbroken separation lines.

Of course the ensuing fine and loss of licence ruins his day. The rider feels very upset by the incident and feels he was coerced into the situation, almost entrapped even.
He started to ask on forums and the like if any other riders had been caught in a similar way and has received lots of feedback (some of which I have seen myself) from other riders caught in similar ‘stings’. Now, I know that traffic police have used video cameras to gather evidence of similar offences in the past, especially in areas with high crash statistics.

To be honest I don’t have an issue with this, if you want to ride like a goose and put other road users in danger then you deserve what you get. But I have a major issue with police using this technique to book riders. Most of my police service was in traffic and driver/rider training and as you might expect I do know lots of serving and retired police officers.

I spoke to three former HWP officers, two of which were actually my bosses at different times. When I described the incident they all were horrified, citing terms from entrapment to unethical, to downright dangerous. Once again I must state that I have only one side of the argument. I have since contacted the Police Media Unit which I found very helpful and this is the response I received back from them: The suggestion that NSW Police Traffic and Highway Patrol officers are instructed to entrap motorists is false and misleading.

The NSW Police Force Traffic and Highway Patrol Command is committed to improving road safety for all motorists, motorcyclists included. Overtaking a vehicle by crossing double white lines is against the law.
Any time a motorist breaks the law, they put their own lives and the lives of other road users at risk. NSW Police officers will attempt to stop and book anyone they catch breaking the law on NSW roads. It is also worth noting that there are no grey Nissan X-Trails within the NSW Police Force Traffic and Highway Patrol fleet.

I did expect this response and I also believe it is right. I cannot ever envisage HWP police to be told to use this method to entrap road users. I know in the 18 years I was a police officer I was never told to entrap motorists due to the ramifications if it goes wrong, and the fact it is very unethical. My personal take on what is happening is certain areas are a magnet for motorcyclists, and these areas naturally have higher than normal motorcycle accident statistics. Therefore it is the local HWP supervisor’s job to involve these areas in any traffic enforcement to try and reduce the accidents. A decision to use unmarked vehicles and video cameras to gather evidence is either a statewide directive from Traffic Command or it’s a local initiative somewhere which has caught on in other areas.

And it’s perfectly legal and safe.

But if a HWP supervisor is instructing his officers to use dodgy techniques like the one described then he or she is a fool. I see it more likely the officers directly involved are using it themselves, and if this is the case then they need their noses pulled fast and hard by their hierarchy. As for no unmarked Nissan X-Trails being on the fleet, that’s a non-event. There are unmarked 4WD vehicles owned by most local commands and it’s easy for the HWP section to borrow one for a day if necessary. I really hope the police are not acting in this way, it is unnecessary and dangerous.

Unfortunately, in my experience just because you are a police officer doesn’t mean you always make the right choices.

If you are riding dangerously then you deserve to be pinged.

But if you are put in danger by police or coerced into committing an offence you would normally not do then this is not on.

http://www.cycletorque.com.au/entrapment-2/#.UpGsqsRkNZ4

[Doggie 1]

I know you are begging for a response from me, Rusty. 
In my 31 years, I never heard of this happening, was never asked or instructed to do it and as a supervisor never asked or instructed my staff to do it.
It seems to me to be a case of an over active imagination at work.
I hope this places your mind at rest.

[rustynutz]

So you've never cruised along the highway sitting under the speed limit hoping some mug will overtake and go slightly over the speed limit so you can nab him? 

[asathorny]

So you've never cruised along the highway sitting under the speed limit hoping some mug will overtake and go slightly over the speed limit so you can nab him? 

You're not being a TROLL are you rusty.... ??????

[Doggie 1]

Truly?
Absolutely not.
No need to.
There are enough idiots out there to go around. 

[rustynutz]

So you've never cruised along the highway sitting under the speed limit hoping some mug will overtake and go slightly over the speed limit so you can nab him? 

You're not being a TROLL are you rusty.... ??????

Why is that, Asa? 

[Just Rick]

one the bloke was a goose for overtaking on double whites,but as for the rest of the story it would no surprise me at all.

I know for Fact over here officers WILL pull heavy vehicles over in preference to private cars for exceeding the speed limits by less than ten K's,as it has been stated to me personally by an officer,we make more money out of you heavy vehicle jockeys,when I asked him to repeat it,when I had my phone out to tape him,he just simply said what do you think I am an idiot.

Entrapment of all different versions are huge fund raisers for govenments,the police forces all over will all say this never happens,but it is exactly the same as they NEVER hide their mobile speed camera's or multi novas

They have over here a rather nice black WRX, dark windows and I have personally witnessed the officers baiting yobbos at lights and when the young dudes or dudettes take the bait and fly off at the lights,pull them over and book them.

But as I have always said,if your stoopid enough to break the law you have to be prepared to pay the fine

[rustynutz]

Truly?
Absolutely not.
No need to.
There are enough idiots out there to go around. 

Well, I'm proud of you, Dave....I always thought you were a decent bloke... 

[rustynutz]

Thanks for that, Rick! 

[Doggie 1]

one the bloke was a goose for overtaking on double whites,but as for the rest of the story it would no surprise me at all.

I know for Fact over here officers WILL pull heavy vehicles over in preference to private cars for exceeding the speed limits by less than ten K's,as it has been stated to me personally by an officer,we make more money out of you heavy vehicle jockeys,when I asked him to repeat it,when I had my phone out to tape him,he just simply said what do you think I am an idiot.

Entrapment of all different versions are huge fund raisers for govenments,the police forces all over will all say this never happens,but it is exactly the same as they NEVER hide their mobile speed camera's or multi novas

They have over here a rather nice black WRX, dark windows and I have personally witnessed the officers baiting yobbos at lights and when the young dudes or dudettes take the bait and fly off at the lights,pull them over and book them.

But as I have always said,if your stoopid enough to break the law you have to be prepared to pay the fine

  
Are you serious, Rick?
News Flash for you: The police don't make ANYTHING out of issuing fines.
Most police officers I know try to avoid pulling over heavy vehicles because they're not up to speed with the laws pertaining to them, whereas, the laws for ordinary vehicles are much simpler.
I have only ever given out one infringement notice (fine) for under 10 km/h over the speed limit and it was back in the '70s.
It was a heavy vehicle travelling through the main street of a town (Manjimup).
As for black WRXs, the police have dozens of them Rick.
Most are C.I.B. cars, though some are Traffic.

[Just Rick]

well all I can say is you have been out of the game for some time now,I know what was said too me and the young bloke was certainly up to speed on heavy vehicle laws and he was also up to speed on which companies over here have overweight and special permits,also while I was watching him write the fine out he was scrolling through a written fine scale which laid out the different fines for differnt weight scaled vehicles and configurations,so don't tell me it does not happen.

As I am still loyal to the armed forces I worked in(after all the years I have been absent from it),you are to the force you served in,but things DO change and as in any service you have the smart arses,Entrapment whether wittingly or unwittingly DOES exist and yes I am well aware the Police service does not directly make anything out of infringements,but they are a public service and do answer to government and like the armed forces do as they are told.

But again as I have always said if I have done something wrong I fess up and pay my dues.

[Doggie 1]

 
Gee Rick, I'm not that old.
I did 31 years and got out 5 years ago.
I still maintain regular contact with many within.
I doubt things have changed THAT much. 

Also, entrapment has to be wittingly. It can't be unwittingly, or it wouldn't be entrapment. 

[rustynutz]

Just further to my original post.....

The chap who wrote in originally apparently had his day in Court.... 

[Doggie 1]

I really do hate the term SUV.
It is an American term that has no relevance here. 

[Just Rick]

Gee Rick, I'm not that old.
I did 31 years and got out 5 years ago.
I still maintain regular contact with many within.
I doubt things have changed THAT much. 

Also, entrapment has to be wittingly. It can't be unwittingly, or it wouldn't be entrapment. 

Yes I'll give you the last one,I realised some time after I wrote that it was a dumb statement.because as you said doing something unmittingly would not be entrapment,I only have one good freind(a few as aquaintances) who is in the force and even he admits entrapment is there,but he is a decent bloke (like Yourself)and does let minor things slide and gives warnings,as he knows in the case I was speaking of,knows that a heavy vehicle fine if issued,can cost a person a minumum of a week to a fortnights wages,again I stress I get more annoyed with myself than the officer for doing his job.

just to get side tracked,I suppose infringement quota's DO NOT exist then either 

Not picking onya Dave nor the forces,I just like to recognise(or should I say acknowledge) between fact and fiction,in the question to which was first posed does entrapment exist,simple asnwer Is YES,those who defend other wise,are either Blind/Stupid or just walk around blinkered,to the forces actions,I know the first two for many here are not Applicable.

[Doggie 1]

I am not blind, blinkered or stupid.
In relation to traffic matters Rick, I have a lot of experience.
There is no need to indulge in entrapment because there are so many offenders out there, they just keep on offending.
I do not include "sitting off" as entrapment.
That is a different issue.
Police do indeed sit off known offenders (such as suspended drivers).
But they are not coerced or entrapped into committing offences.
No need.
I have NEVER seen it happen in all my years.

[Just Rick]

Just further to my original post.....

The chap who wrote in originally apparently had his day in Court.... 

Rusty,I do admire these blokes for fighting for what they fought for  ,but whether through entrapment or not,THEY DID in fact break the law  and their fines should have stood,but action against the NSW Highway patrol and the officers invovled,should have been taken further.

[Surferdude]

It's simple.
Said it before. And I'll say it again for anyone dumb enough to not get the message.
Don't break the law and you don't have anything to worry about.
If the magistrate/ judge let the offender off in the case above, it's yet further proof that our judiciary stinks.
If you break the law and get caught, as Rick says, pay up and get on with your life.

Bloody conspiracy theorists give me the runs.

[rustynutz]

If the magistrate/ judge let the offender off in the case above, it's yet further proof that our judiciary stinks.

Rusty,I do admire these blokes for fighting for what they fought for  ,but whether through entrapment or not,THEY DID in fact break the law  and their fines should have stood,but action against the NSW Highway patrol and the officers invovled,should have been taken further.

Are you both happy to be penalised regardless of any extenuating circumstances? 
I believe there needs be some discretion allowed so as to take in particular circumstances when it comes to handing out punishment.
This is one reason I'm against mandatory sentences.... 

[Doggie 1]

I am in favour of mandatory minimum sentences but not in favour of mandatory sentencing per se.
I believe that some discretion needs to be left with our judiciary.

[rustynutz]

I guess it depends on the crime.... 

[Just Rick]

sentencing this day and age is an absolute joke anyhow,how many serious offenders actually do the full amount of time.

My lodgic is 10,14,15,30 years is just that,10,14,15,30 years,no parole,no good behaviour and to me life is exactly that,you go in and you come out in a box

[AlanHo]

Paddy appealed against his fixed penalty fine for speeding.

He said there were mitigating circumstances.

He was blind drunk at the time and couldn't read the speed limit sign.

[Lakes]

Rusty, anyone with half a brain, don't ride on the old pacific hwy. it was turned into a race track by sports bike riders. these guys were crazy. i witnessed things they did on that road. then about a decade back the speed limit was dropped to something like 50 or 60 KPH. but the only reason the road is there now is people live on it. but you don't need to use it as the f3 freeway 110kph replaced it many years ago. police & EPA & RTA have all had blitz's on that road to get the sports bikes off it.
if they want to race Eastern Creek raceway is open to them. i ride a MC on the road, but if i want to speed i take it to the track pay for track time. also how would you feel if you lived on the old pacific hwy, & you were trying to drive out your drive & these crazy's are screaming around blind corners using it like a race track.
there is always two sides to a story.
another thing is most sports bike riders i see all have camera's on there lid's, where was his film.
cheers not picking on you just i have local knowledge on that road.

[Dazzler]

If the magistrate/ judge let the offender off in the case above, it's yet further proof that our judiciary stinks.

Rusty,I do admire these blokes for fighting for what they fought for  ,but whether through entrapment or not,THEY DID in fact break the law  and their fines should have stood,but action against the NSW Highway patrol and the officers invovled,should have been taken further.

Are you both happy to be penalised regardless of any extenuating circumstances? 
I believe there needs be some discretion allowed so as to take in particular circumstances when it comes to handing out punishment.
This is one reason I'm against mandatory sentences.... 

When I was about 22 I got my first speeding fine. An off duty cop in a hotted up Commodore or Torana was tailgating me through a 60kph area so I sped up a bit to get him off my tail.

When I got to around 70 kph he pulled me over.. Was a real smart arse with attitude. When he said why did I do that speed, I said had my music up loud and didn't realise (couldn't really say the real reason)

Obviously I didn't realise he was a cop until he pulled me over.

I was really pissed off but I learned a good lesson which I still remember (don't be pushed into speeding by tailgaters)

[rustynutz]

Rusty, anyone with half a brain, don't ride on the old pacific hwy. it was turned into a race track by sports bike riders. these guys were crazy. i witnessed things they did on that road. then about a decade back the speed limit was dropped to something like 50 or 60 KPH. but the only reason the road is there now is people live on it. but you don't need to use it as the f3 freeway 110kph replaced it many years ago. police & EPA & RTA have all had blitz's on that road to get the sports bikes off it.
if they want to race Eastern Creek raceway is open to them. i ride a MC on the road, but if i want to speed i take it to the track pay for track time. also how would you feel if you lived on the old pacific hwy, & you were trying to drive out your drive & these crazy's are screaming around blind corners using it like a race track.
there is always two sides to a story.
another thing is most sports bike riders i see all have camera's on there lid's, where was his film.
cheers not picking on you just i have local knowledge on that road.

But these guys weren't nabbed for speeding, John... 

[Surferdude]

Rusty, surely John is just making the point that the police are all over the Old Pacific Highway, so don't step out of line there.
I too, know it well. I used it to teach my two youngest to drive and even back in the 90's there were regular police patrols along there.

[rustynutz]

Sydney Morning Herald
October 6, 2013
Bellinda Kontominas


Police who deliberately baited motorcyclists to break the law then fined them have been exposed in a recent court case, leading to a magistrate describing the police as ''reckless''.

The finding could pave the way for scores of other riders caught using similar tactics to reclaim demerit points and fines.

The operation featured in the case took place on September 16 and 23 last year in a section of the Old Pacific Highway between Mount White and Brooklyn. The Ku-ring-gai highway patrol issued 68 tickets, all to motorbike riders.

Brothers Rod and James Ward were booked for crossing the road's double dividing lines. They were each fined $298 and lost three points. James said they had been on a casual ride when, ''in a flurry of dust and gravel'', a grey SUV pulled out in front of them, then sped up and slowed down several times. ''People were moving around inside the vehicle and there was a commotion going on in there and we didn't really know what was going on,'' he said. ''I thought initially it was some tourists who had been lost.''
 
He said the vehicle moved to the left ''as if to beckon us past'' so they overtook the SUV - an unmarked police car - by crossing to the wrong side of the road.

From inside the SUV, officers filmed the riders then radioed a patrol car down the road with their licence plate details.

The brothers described the incident as a case of police ''entrapment'' and challenged the fines in court, along with three other riders booked for the same offence.

While the defence of ''entrapment'' does not exist in Australia, their barrister argued the police acted improperly and that any evidence against the riders was inadmissible. The riders told the court they felt safer overtaking the undercover vehicle than following it as it veered across the lane. The officers involved denied the undercover vehicle was driven unsafely.

Magistrate Eve Wynhausen disagreed, describing their driving as ''erratic'' and said it had caused each of the riders to break the law. ''I am satisfied on the evidence that the driving had some influence on the actions of the defendants and that … they would not have committed the offences were it not for the way the covert vehicle was being driven on both those days.''

The case against the riders was dismissed. Ms Wynhausen criticised senior officers involved, saying their behaviour fell ''far short'' of the NSW Police Code of Conduct and Ethics.

A police statement said a standard review would be conducted into the failed court case and police would continue to target dangerous driver behaviour.
The brothers said they had been contacted by dozens of riders who had also been booked.


To view video and article:

[rustynutz]

Another form of entrapment? 

Speed camera careless entrapment: roads minister

[rustynutz]

And then there's this sort of entrapment....   

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