[FatBoy]

I agree Phil.  Sorry, I should have said, "apply" not "force".  My bad.  A ceasefire should be arranged, and I believe that it is going through the process now.  However, these things do not happen instantaneously.  Maybe the people delaying the ceasefire believe that it will bring attention to them and therefore highlight what they believe are their points and complaints to the international community?  People do "interesting" things when bits of lead are being exchanged for pieces of dirt.

[Phil №❶]

I had the same thought about highlighting their cause, but I couldn't imagine anyone gaining support from such a move, so disregarded it.

[FatBoy]

Desperate times, desperate measures.

[asathorny]

Hopefully Malaysian Airlines will survive this.  While it has had two very large tragedies in the last few months, both events are unrelated and it appears out of control of the airline itself.  It will be interesting to see the reasons why the pilot chose to fly over the conflict area, and not avoid it like other airlines.  From my understanding, they weren't the only airline overflying the conflict area.

As far as I am aware Jamie, they flew there because the were assured it was safe to do so and many other did just the same.    I find it amazing that anyone (other than crazy Putin) would attempt to cast blame on the victims of this crime against humanity. 

[Doggie 1]

If intent is proven, I hope the bastards that did this forever rot in hell.

Malaysia Airlines MH17: Perth man Nick Norris and grandchildren among victims - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting

[Phil №❶]

All 3 children lost. I couldn't ever re-enter my home. 

[Surferdude]

I have a surf forum buddy over there in WA who's kid was in school and sporting club with one of those three.
The loss and effects of the whole thing are so much more widespread than just the families of those lost.

[FatBoy]

Agreed Trevor.  I received an email yesterday from our company's CEO to say that the Base Manager from Miri was on MH17.  It will affect a lot of people, more so in the Netherlands and Malaysia.

[Surferdude]

Also  a teacher from Maningrida, NT.
A few months ago I would have had no idea where that was but our daughter has been there a couple of times in her job with NT Health and worked with most of the teachers. She's unsure if she met this lady until she sees a picture.

[FatBoy]

It appears that our fears that the bodies will be used as pawns may be true.   

MH17: Bodies of crash victims on refrigerated train as Julie Bishop lobbies UN Security Council over resolution - ABC

We can jump up and down, and say angry things as much as we want, we may even send a letter, but there is nothing that we can really do.

[Lester]

I just think the Ukranian Govt is weak as p..s by failing to send its forces in to clear out these rebels or terrorists in Eastern Ukraine, so as the international observers/investigators/disaster identification teams etc can get stuck in.

I think Putin is weak by not ordering the Ruski influenced terrorists in Eastern Ukraine out of the crash area, again to allow international experts to commence their tasks.

I have never trusted the Russians.

If there had been 100 Americans on MH17, the Yanks would have sent in the Marines by now.

[FatBoy]

I have to disagree.  If the Ukrainian Government was able to clear out the rebels, there would not have been a war zone to avoid.  The fighting would be long over.  However, sending in forces to "clear" the area would only increase the number of dead bodies, and also contaminate the wreck site even more.

Blaming Putin for this is like blaming the US for Sadam Hussein killing 400,000 Kurds.  After all, he used US supplied weapons.  The rebels are not trained soldiers, they do not have the training, command structure or discipline required to behave in a manner that we see as appropriate. 

There is likely to be a UN Security Council resolution on this matter, which will probably be vetoed by the Russians.  Let's just wait and see what happens.

The investigation, by international law, should be conducted by the Ukraine.  They have however, requested that the Netherlands take the lead in this investigation, as the Netherlands is better equipped to deal with the size of it.  The Dutch have requested international help.  Nobody will send any investigators into an area where their safety cannot be assured.

[Phil №❶]

Agreed 100% Fatboy. 

[meehalych]

The investigation must be conducted by Germany or France or China. 

[asathorny]

Let us all face up to reality.   Russia supplies a quarter of all the gas and oil used in Europe (game over) 

In the end the politicians will talk and talk and talk, very carefully so as not to upset the delicate balance  <sigh>

[meehalych]

By the way, why the conversation between the pilot and ATC operator hasn't been published yet? That may be an answer to some questions

[Lester]

Good to see the rebels have handed over the 'black box(s) to Malaysian officials, also good that the deceased are on their way to Amsterdam by train and aircraft.

Now we await the multi nation investigation.

[Lester]

I just think the Ukranian Govt is weak as p..s by failing to send its forces in to clear out these rebels or terrorists in Eastern Ukraine, so as the international observers/investigators/disaster identification teams etc can get stuck in.

I think Putin is weak by not ordering the Ruski influenced terrorists in Eastern Ukraine out of the crash area, again to allow international experts to commence their tasks.

I have never trusted the Russians.

If there had been 100 Americans on MH17, the Yanks would have sent in the Marines by now.

Now it looks like the Australian Federal Police and our troops are going into the site, god only knows what will happen, once the rebels see them, unless Putin gives them the message.

Good luck lads.

[meehalych]

Now it looks like the Australian Federal Police and our troops are going into the site, god only knows what will happen, once the rebels see them, unless Putin gives them the message.

Good luck lads.

Meanwhile the guys from Malaysia were bombed by Ukrainian army while going from Donetsk to a scene of airplane crash some days ago. It is not the rebels you should worry about. By the way, according to USA intelligence: no evidence Russia is involved, no evidence who shot down the aircraft, whereas Russian ministry of defence has given some info (satellite images) about Ukrainian army's BUKs relocation to a site of war zone and a data about a presence of military jet near B777 (the video from a conference I posted before; in English).
In fact, Ukrainian side hasn't disclosed the conversation between pilots and ATC controller.

[Phil №❶]

It's a pity the Buk's were there, otherwise the plane would still be flying.

[Surferdude]

Now it looks like the Australian Federal Police and our troops are going into the site, god only knows what will happen, once the rebels see them, unless Putin gives them the message.

Good luck lads.

Meanwhile the guys from Malaysia were bombed by Ukrainian army while going from Donetsk to a scene of airplane crash some days ago. It is not the rebels you should worry about. By the way, according to USA intelligence: no evidence Russia is involved, no evidence who shot down the aircraft, whereas Russian ministry of defence has given some info (satellite images) about Ukrainian army's BUKs relocation to a site of war zone and a data about a presence of military jet near B777 (the video from a conference I posted before; in English).
In fact, Ukrainian side hasn't disclosed the conversation between pilots and ATC controller.

Mischa, there are no reports in our (or as far as I can determine, Malaysian media) to back up that statement about Malaysians being bombed by Ukrainians.
I think we all need to recognise that, whilst this is a tragedy of the highest order, media reporting on both sides will be biased and incomplete. A lot of what is being said on a daily basis is being conradicted the next day.

Might I suggest that, in the interests of maintaining the great international relationships on this site, that we all stop further speculation and let the various investigations run their courses.
And in doing so, maybe we can all go a little way towards not magnifying the terrible sense of loss felt by the relatives, friends, workmates, neighbours, school friends and team mates of those whose lives were lost.

[meehalych]

Mischa, there are no reports in our (or as far as I can determine, Malaysian media) to back up that statement about Malaysians being bombed by Ukrainians.

(click to show/hide)

http://en.haberler.com/malaysian-experts-investigating-boeing-crash-come-496771/

[asathorny]

Now it looks like the Australian Federal Police and our troops are going into the site, god only knows what will happen, once the rebels see them, unless Putin gives them the message.

Good luck lads.

Meanwhile the guys from Malaysia were bombed by Ukrainian army while going from Donetsk to a scene of airplane crash some days ago. It is not the rebels you should worry about. By the way, according to USA intelligence: no evidence Russia is involved, no evidence who shot down the aircraft, whereas Russian ministry of defence has given some info (satellite images) about Ukrainian army's BUKs relocation to a site of war zone and a data about a presence of military jet near B777 (the video from a conference I posted before; in English).
In fact, Ukrainian side hasn't disclosed the conversation between pilots and ATC controller.

Mischa, there are no reports in our (or as far as I can determine, Malaysian media) to back up that statement about Malaysians being bombed by Ukrainians.
I think we all need to recognise that, whilst this is a tragedy of the highest order, media reporting on both sides will be biased and incomplete. A lot of what is being said on a daily basis is being conradicted the next day.

Might I suggest that, in the interests of maintaining the great international relationships on this site, that we all stop further speculation and let the various investigations run their courses.
And in doing so, maybe we can all go a little way towards not magnifying the terrible sense of loss felt by the relatives, friends, workmates, neighbours, school friends and team mates of those whose lives were lost.

It appears that you may as well talk to the wall..   Once someone becomes pathologically excited about a theory or notion reason goes right out of the window <sigh>

[meehalych]

It appears that you may as well talk to the wall..   Once someone becomes pathologically excited about a theory or notion reason goes right out of the window <sigh>

Do I accuse any side of a conflict? Do I insist it is Ukraine that shot down the airplane?

[Phil №❶]

In the interests of ALL of our members, this topic will be locked pending review by Admin.