[eye30]

The government will be able to monitor the calls, emails, texts and website visits of everyone in the UK under new legislation set to be announced soon.

Internet firms will be required to give intelligence agency GCHQ access to communications on demand, in real time.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17576745

So will this create more users for our site?

[AlanHo]

I'm all for it. I don't post or Email anything I would worry about the authorities seeing.

Crooks, fraudsters, perverts and terrorists might not hold the same views though.

[succulant]

I'm all for it. I don't post or Email anything I would worry about the authorities seeing.

Crooks, fraudsters, perverts and terrorists might not hold the same views though.

Its all fine and good to say you have nothing to hide but how big a leap is it from this to a government introducing censorship when it doesn't agree with you viewing habitats.
At any rate I think its unworkable because to the sheer volume of data it would create. 

[Phil №❶]

Well, I don't like that idea too much at all.

I accept Alan's viewpoint though. If you're not into anything illegal then it isn't a problem. The same theory applies to speed cameras, radar etc. I never get caught because nothing short of life or death would induce me to speed unnecessarily.

What makes me uncomfortable, is the gradual reduction of a person's private identity being eroded by stealth.

100 years ago in UK, people lived in villages and sometimes never left their local area. They had their own friends and lived their lives largely unaware of the larger world outside of their sphere. The car and the telephone came and this expanded peoples ability to interact with each other, BY CHOICE. Increasingly, the public has been duped into providing personal details to the whole world with the advent of Facebook etc, which although voluntary, has the ability to publicly humiliate & bully individuals, involuntarily, on an enormous worldwide scale.

Now governments, at the stroke of a pen demand access to all information, be it personal, commercial, political etc. for them to determine what is legal or not. This is just 1 step away from them legislating themselves the right to enter your property, search through your undies or anything else with no reason, just because they can. They can already do this in Oz if you're a licensed firearm owner.

I don't like where this world is going and wherever that is it's going faster and faster too. 

Stop the world, I want to get off. 

[Doggie 1]

I don't like it either.
I have absolutely no problems with law enforcement agencies accessing whatever information or data they want to access in pursuit of crooks.
But when the government starts making blanket laws it concerns me.
I don't see what is wrong with at least having to convince a judge (by way of evidence or quantifiable information received) that a search warrant is required.
The information shouldn't need to be proved correct at the end of the day, just legitimately received and acted upon in good faith.
That way, at least there are some reasonable accountability levels, checks and balances in place.

[Ugly Mongrel]

This is scary

No offence, Alan, but your argument about not posting/emailing anything that "the authorities" might see is hogwash. The problem is that "we" don't know what "the authorities" might find "worrying".

Who is to say that there is not one post on this whole site that wouldn't attract the beady eye of "Big Brother"? We might all think our posts are funny and inoffensive, but if"the authorities" don't think so, then we're screwed (oops, naughty word)

The erosion of personal freedom by stealth is something we must resist. If I were to suggest an uprising against this type of legislation and "the authorities" saw that post, what would happen to me or the administration of the site?

This is madness.

[Doggie 1]

UM, regardless of what happens to you after your last post (The Last Post  ) I just want you to know that you were recognised and valued on this forum and we will sorely miss you. 

P.S. Can I have your i30? 

[AlanHo]

I was  inoculated against paranoia many years ago and don't subscribe to the argument that society should be a totally free speech, free action, free everything, free for all.  There are too many self serving parasitic freaks in the world that will destroy us all if we fail to detect and deal with their evil presence - be they individuals, groups or rogue governments.

British society is under real threat from the insidious growth of Muslim extremism bent on making Britiain a fundamentalist sharia society. As a tolerant nation, the average Brit is turning a blind eye and allowing the vocal minority to get their way by stealth and occasional violence. This is being aided and abetted by self serving political idiots like Ken Livingstone and George Galloway who are sucking up to the Islamic militants to gain personal benefit - and thereby putting up two fingers to the average man.

In the UK we have suffered from years of weak government not prepared to tackle this threat in fear of losing at the next election. It's about time the government woke up to the threats we face - sort out the slimebags bent on destroying our country and reintroduce a fair and free democracy where the wishes of the majority hold sway. In some parts of the country, radicalism is so rife that no-go areas have developed where the police fear to tread - how can that be right?

If this requires monitoring communications to detect threats to our freedom - then it is fine with me.

You guys in Australia may not feel so much under threat - but believe me the average true Brit is concerned about our future, has little to fear from the plans and much to gain. Read the details not the headlines -

Internet service providers will be asked to keep records of all emails, messages on social networking sites and conversations over Skype.
The content of the calls or messages will be recorded, but the authorities will have to obtain a court order if they want to listen to or read the content.
However, the police and security services will be able to demand details of who the communication is between and what time it is taking place without a court order.
The plans, which have been confirmed by the Home Office, will allow GCHQ, the Government's eavesdropping centre, to monitor on demand every phone call, text, email and website accessed in real time.


One thing for sure - when I come to power I will make Atilla the Hun look like a pussy cat...............

[Ugly Mongrel]

UM, regardless of what happens to you after your last post (The Last Post  ) I just want you to know that you were recognised and valued on this forum and we will sorely miss you. 

P.S. Can I have your i30? 

Thank you & goodbye, Dave.

No you can't have my i30, "Big Brother" has impounded it as it has links to this forum.

P.S. Please visit me in prison and bring that beer with you.

[Doggie 1]

I was  inoculated against paranoia many years ago and don't subscribe to the argument that society should be a totally free speech, free action, free everything, free for all.  There are too many self serving parasitic freaks in the world that will destroy us all if we fail to detect and deal with their evil presence - be they individuals, groups or rogue governments.

British society is under real threat from the insidious growth of Muslim extremism bent on making Britiain a fundamentalist sharia society. As a tolerant nation, the average Brit is turning a blind eye and allowing the vocal minority to get their way by stealth and occasional violence. This is being aided and abetted by self serving political idiots like Ken Livingstone and George Galloway who are sucking up to the Islamic militants to gain personal benefit - and thereby putting up two fingers to the average man.

In the UK we have suffered from years of weak government not prepared to tackle this threat in fear of losing at the next election. It's about time the government woke up to the threats we face - sort out the slimebags bent on destroying our country and reintroduce a fair and free democracy where the wishes of the majority hold sway. In some parts of the country, radicalism is so rife that no-go areas have developed where the police fear to tread - how can that be right?

If this requires monitoring communications to detect threats to our freedom - then it is fine with me.

You guys in Australia may not feel so much under threat - but believe me the average true Brit is concerned about our future, has little to fear from the plans and much to gain. Read the details not the headlines -

Internet service providers will be asked to keep records of all emails, messages on social networking sites and conversations over Skype.
The content of the calls or messages will be recorded, but the authorities will have to obtain a court order if they want to listen to or read the content.
However, the police and security services will be able to demand details of who the communication is between and what time it is taking place without a court order.
The plans, which have been confirmed by the Home Office, will allow GCHQ, the Government's eavesdropping centre, to monitor on demand every phone call, text, email and website accessed in real time.

I agree with much of what you say Alan and we in Australia have many of the same concerns.
At least there are some safeguards in there as far as the court orders are concerned, but I would never be looking to restrict the information that the police require to do their job.
I know first hand that they only want to lock up the perpetrators and protect society from its many evils so there is no argument from me there.
It is other government agencies and the government itself that I have concerns with.
Having some safeguards there doesn't only provide protection for individuals in society, it also provides protection from allegations made against law enforcement officers.
Again, no argument from me that the "good of the nation" is more important than the civil rights of individuals, but I do believe that these measures need to be tempered with basic, common-sense protocols for the protection of all concerned.

[Doggie 1]

UM, regardless of what happens to you after your last post (The Last Post  ) I just want you to know that you were recognised and valued on this forum and we will sorely miss you. 

P.S. Can I have your i30? 

Thank you & goodbye, Dave.

No you can't have my i30, "Big Brother" has impounded it as it has links to this forum.

P.S. Please visit me in prison and bring that beer with you.

We will get that beer one day you know 

[Ugly Mongrel]

UM, regardless of what happens to you after your last post (The Last Post  ) I just want you to know that you were recognised and valued on this forum and we will sorely miss you. 

P.S. Can I have your i30? 

Thank you & goodbye, Dave.

No you can't have my i30, "Big Brother" has impounded it as it has links to this forum.

P.S. Please visit me in prison and bring that beer with you.

We will get that beer one day you know 

I don't doubt that for one moment, Dave.

[bumpkin]

Dont agree with you on this one Alan, we must observe email for what it really is, electronic mail.  Are you advocating that plod can stop postie on the street corner and open your handwritten letters?  He never used to be able to do that, why should he now? Why should Internet plod be given more authority than street plod?

Let's see what this will really mean, ISP's have to keep mountains of data, OK then that simply means that you and I will be charged more for our use as they will have to provide more backup facilities than ever, this in turn will lead to the providers giving more money to the government, so in real terms it is just another method of getting money.

The whole thing stinks, we are monitored to extremes and whilst I have nothing to fear and perhaps shouldn't be worried, how long before we are arrested for the heinous crime of "having an opinion"?

 

[Ugly Mongrel]

Hear! Hear! Well said bumpkin.

[Doggie 1]

I thought that this thread might actually open up the venerable
 

and I think I was right 

[AlanHo]

Those who are totally against any form of monitoring communications for anti crime and anti terrorist purposes need to offer an alternative that is effective at sniffing out threats to our well being in order for their argument to be credible.

UK residents will have noticed a steady flow of court actions where potential terrorists hell bent on mayhem and murder have been detected by covert surveillance in all its forms, brought to court, and imprisoned before they could put their evil plan into operation.

The legislation now being enacted is only formalising what is going on anyway.

I say again - if you are an ardent proponent of preventing the security forces from collecting vital data in the way proposed - then please offer a credible alternative.

Society is polarised between those who wish to see strict civil liberties protected - at the possible cost of criminals and terrorists not being pursued until after the event - and those like me who can see no alternative but to allow the authorities to collect the data and evidence required to protect our real freedom - a safe and secure society.

Each will argue their case till blue in the face - but no amount of argument is going to persuade the others to change their views. Hence I understand and respect the views of those who argue against this legislation and conclude by saying we are each entitled to our opinions  - no matter how ridiculous they appear to others...

I will now retire gracefully from the topic here - and will watch the inevitable political fall-out in the UK with interest................ 

[Doggie 1]

Some of us agree.
Some of us disagree.
Some of us partially agree and partially disagree.
But in the words of Voltaire, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[Surferdude]

Dont agree with you on this one Alan, we must observe email for what it really is, electronic mail.  Are you advocating that plod can stop postie on the street corner and open your handwritten letters?  He never used to be able to do that, why should he now? Why should Internet plod be given more authority than street plod?
Bumpkin, I think the difference is that in the days of snail mail, it was just that. Things happened more slowly. Nowadays, the use of e-mail by "the badddies" means instant communication and possibly instant death and destruction

Let's see what this will really mean, ISP's have to keep mountains of data, OK then that simply means that you and I will be charged more for our use as they will have to provide more backup facilities than ever, this in turn will lead to the providers giving more money to the government, so in real terms it is just another method of getting money.
I would have thought everything is kept even now in back ups somewhere.

The whole thing stinks, we are monitored to extremes and whilst I have nothing to fear and perhaps shouldn't be worried, how long before we are arrested for the heinous crime of "having an opinion"?

 

[Phil №❶]

Plenty of people have died for the right to be free and live in a democracy, many still don't. I value my right to privacy even more than that. So under the new monitoring rules, which all other governments will also implement, the only option would be to refrain from participating, which for me, means losing all you people (and if I may say, friends) in this forum. I feel that is a gross infringement on my liberty. It's not that I have typed anything that I wouldn't stand by, it's the principle of the matter. 

[eye30]

However, the police and security services will be able to demand details of who the communication is between and what time it is taking place without a court order.

I'm already subject to scrutiny.

It's call the wife.....

[bumpkin]

Those who are totally against any form of monitoring communications for anti crime and anti terrorist purposes need to offer an alternative that is effective at sniffing out threats to our well being in order for their argument to be credible.

UK residents will have noticed a steady flow of court actions where potential terrorists hell bent on mayhem and murder have been detected by covert surveillance in all its forms, brought to court, and imprisoned before they could put their evil plan into operation.

The legislation now being enacted is only formalising what is going on anyway.

I say again - if you are an ardent proponent of preventing the security forces from collecting vital data in the way proposed - then please offer a credible alternative.

Society is polarised between those who wish to see strict civil liberties protected - at the possible cost of criminals and terrorists not being pursued until after the event - and those like me who can see no alternative but to allow the authorities to collect the data and evidence required to protect our real freedom - a safe and secure society.

Each will argue their case till blue in the face - but no amount of argument is going to persuade the others to change their views. Hence I understand and respect the views of those who argue against this legislation and conclude by saying we are each entitled to our opinions  - no matter how ridiculous they appear to others...

I will now retire gracefully from the topic here - and will watch the inevitable political fall-out in the UK with interest................ 

Of course you are absolutely correct Alan, there is no point in saying no to something without providing a constructive alternative which can then be discussed and proven to be a good or bad idea.

We know as admin, mods and even users of this very forum that the software does not allow the use of certain words, surely a similar implementation of monitor at ISP source can be coded to find certain words and bring them to the attention of the relevant authorities should that be required?  This means that you and I generally conversing over electronic media can do so without being overly concerned that some suit in a Whitehall office is reading every word we write and invading our privacy and right to "free speech".

There is no requirement for said suit to be reading hundreds of posts on this site when potentially only a couple are likely to contain the offending phrases which could point to covert terrorist actions is there??

The point i would make is that whilst we do need "protection" from terror, is this just not another spoke which they will circumvent anyway and leave you and I the innocent victims of the entire proposal? 

Remember EVERY single thing that successive governments over hundreds of years in every country in the world has tried to legislate against has been driven further underground, making it even harder to find and deal with effectively.

[Phil №❶]

Good points Bumpkin,

The situation you describe about keywords has existed since 911, that's how the current "T" plots are being circumvented, and we are all very grateful for that. The ability for authorities to cook up scenarios to suit their cause is commonly displayed on TV now. An American show often bypasses the 48 hour detention law by suggesting that their activities are "T" type, so no rights to an attorney, no 48 hours & possible shipping off to a warm location, indefinitely.

The internet contains so much data that the providers themselves are distributed throughout the entire world. This legislation proposes that all information in the UK has to be available for monitoring. That would mean having the ability to hold all data all day, every day. I doubt there is a facility capable of collecting, let alone filtering the relevant information for 1 second of the total UK throughput. And even if it were possible, what HUGE department is going to deal with the info, I thought the govt was in cutback mode. How long will it take to scrutinize, because while you're sifting, another lot has just been produced by us. I think it is logistically impossible