[peon2t]

Hi

Today I opened the engine bonnet in order to refill windscreen wiper fluid. To my annoyance I found two disturbing occurences.

1. There was a dead bird right on my motor. I have no idea how it got there but it lay there right in this 'hollow' under the CRDi logo.
Well I got me a pair of gloves and removed the animal just to see the second thing:

2. The 'coolant expansion reservoir' was (almost) empty! It has a mark that says F (for 'full', i guess) and L (for 'low', I guess) but the actual coolant level was far below the L! There was just a very small amount of coolant left on the bottom of the tank.

Now I must say that I'm a bit worried about my engine. I don't know very much about cars but I have been told that driving with an empty coolant reservoir isn't advisable ;-)

When I took  a look under the bonnet the last time (it's probably one or two months ago) the coolant level was normal (between L and F) - so I don't know if this problem exists for one day or one month now... the only thing I can say that I never saw any coolant-level-warning-light (if one exists) and that I never saw an unusual coolant temperature on the display

What do you think about it?



(The picture is not form my actual car but found on the internet)

[Phil №❶]

The coolant bottle holds expanded coolant when the engine is at operating temperature or just switched off. From this point, as the engine cools the liquid is drawn back into the radiator, due to contraction of the existing coolant. The function of the bottle is to ensure that no air is admitted into the radiator. Engines made with iron blocks and aluminium cylinder heads are extremely prone to corrosion if air is present or plain water is used as a coolant.

I would suggest that no damage has been done yet, but the level should be topped up to at least the L mark when the engine is fully cold. The other concern is, do you have a leak at all. This would need to be fixed. Top up and monitor over the next week or so.

[Asterix]

Agree with Phil.

Top it up when cold. Write down kilometer and see what happens. Remember to compare the level only with cold engine.

If the radiator had been empty, the engine would have gotten too hot and you would have been warned in the dash.

[Keith]

I still can't believe some owners don't check the car fluids every weekend when the car gets a wash and the tyre pressures checked.... I'd be sooooo tempted to check the oil.....

[peon2t]

@ Phil & Asterix

Now I made a picture:



I case this pipe in the front is supposed to suck in fluid, I fear, that right now it would fail... at least when driving just a little bit uphill.


Anyway. Tomorrow I'll call the dealer and ask him what to do. Because somwhere the fluid must have gone, I guess...



@ Keith

I think the vast majority of the owners don't even check their cars fluids once a year ;-)

[Asterix]

As soon as the water in the cooler gets hot, it expands. I wouldn't worry about air in the system.

I still can't believe some owners don't check the car fluids every weekend when the car gets a wash and the tyre pressures checked.... I'd be sooooo tempted to check the oil.....

If you have a car that for years haven't used any oil or coolant, than why bother. There's a warning light in the dash for all the importent fluids anyway.

I only check the oil when I'm out of washer fluid anyway..

[peon2t]

I'm just thinking... maybe there's a connection between the bird and the coolant incident. Could it be that some marten dragged the dead bird inside and afterward feasted on some coolant pipe instead of the bird..?

Damage to cars done by martens aren't that uncommon here.

[Keith]

Sorry but anyone who doesn't check fluids at LEAST monthly deserves to be left stranded by the roadside at the cars earliest opportunity. Even if it has never lost any fluids that doesn't meant wont, and warranty won't cover any failure that results, but your wallet will feel raped!  :winker

[peon2t]

@ Asterix

The question is: Is there really a light?

I found some thread on a German Hyundai board where a member had an engine damage after all his coolant leaked out. He wondered then why there was no warning light for low coolant level and other members told him that this warning light just doesn't exist in his i30..


@ Keith

Even if you check your cars fluids weekly... if you check at sunday, your coolant pipe bursts at tuesday and your car is dead at wednesday you didn't win anything, right?

[eye30]

Won't the engine temp guage rise up and then a warning light appear.

[Keith]

@ Asterix

The question is: Is there really a light?

I found some thread on a German Hyundai board where a member had an engine damage after all his coolant leaked out. He wondered then why there was no warning light for low coolant level and other members told him that this warning light just doesn't exist in his i30..


@ Keith

Even if you check your cars fluids weekly... if you check at sunday, your coolant pipe bursts at tuesday and your car is dead at wednesday you didn't win anything, right?

Rubbish! You could say, don't look before crossing a road, you might get away with it sometimes... Right?

[Keith]

Won't the engine temp guage rise up and then a warning light appear.

Yes... And who would gamble on that happening in time to save catastrophic overheating? With oil, the light comes on when the PRESSURE has gone, if that's due to oil not being topped up the engine dies... Seems like some people enjoy a bit of roulette instead of hedging bets in their favour.

[peon2t]

Rubbish! You could say, don't look before crossing a road, you might get away with it sometimes... Right?

I really don't get your logic. I couldn't think of any way in which your answer could make sense in regard to my quote.

I just pointed out that a regular check of the fluids only helps if the leakage is very slowly

But if you have a fast leakage (like for example when a marten bites the pipe) your coolant has gone long before your next scheduled check.

(By the way: If a marten destroys my coolant pipe,  maybe not my warranty but my insurance covers any consequential damages.)




But back to topic:

- We (or at least I) still don't know if there's a coolant level warning light

- I'm not sure if the temperature-display is very trustworthy since I heard that if there isn't enough coolant in the system the temperature sensor isn't immerged in water and therefore doesn't show the right temperature.

[Asterix]

@ Asterix

The question is: Is there really a light?

I found some thread on a German Hyundai board where a member had an engine damage after all his coolant leaked out. He wondered then why there was no warning light for low coolant level and other members told him that this warning light just doesn't exist in his i30..


@ Keith

Even if you check your cars fluids weekly... if you check at sunday, your coolant pipe bursts at tuesday and your car is dead at wednesday you didn't win anything, right?

I don't think there's a light for low coolant, but the temp gauge will show engine temp rise. That's what I meant.

[Asterix]

If a marten have eaten your coolantpipe the coolant will vanish very fast.. You will notice.

[eye30]

- I'm not sure if the temperature-display is very trustworthy since I heard that if there isn't enough coolant in the system the temperature sensor isn't immerged in water and therefore doesn't show the right temperature.

So taking this logically, no water = increase in engine block temp which in turn will heat the temp sender unit up which is screwed into the engine block directly.  This increase will then be shown on the gauge and once critical temp reached the warning light will light up, unless blown bulb or fuse.

OR

Just one massive big bang and you come to an abrupt halt

[Asterix]

- We (or at least I) still don't know if there's a coolant level warning light

On the picture you posted earlier, you can see there's no sensor in the coolant reservoir, thus no warning for low coolant level...

[Keith]

I suppose, when it comes down to it, it is up to the owners of the cars to deal with as they see fit, or not. I would however suspect that most of those that don't check, top up, maintain might neglect to say so when they do run into trouble. And that it would be the fact that Hyundai must use cheap materials or shoddy components that the trouble happened to them. I seem to be alone in the fact that I check everything under my bonnet weekly. Old habits I guess.... I even check for, and remove sharp stones from the treads of my tyres one a month.

To peon2t, irony wasn't my aim, my aim was to suggest, that you can balance odds in your favour of avoiding catastrophic failure by spotting something early through regular checks. Of course neglecting a car is an owners prerogative....

[peon2t]

Ok, so there's no warning light. So you'll have to trust the temperature gauge. Now luckily I didn't see any unnormal temperatures dring the last days. This could mean that

a) even at a low level, there was still enough coolant
b) the leakage happened last night (for example by a marten bite), so I never drove the car with a low coolant level
c) the temperature gauge isn't trustworthy and didn't show the high temperatures

Of course I'm hoping for a or b


Anyway. That so much coolant has gone in such a short amount of time (and driven kilometers) is definitely not normal. So I have to ask the dealer about it. My concern now is, if I can risk it to drive the car to the dealer. In case of a not so fast leakage I could just fill up the coolant tank and drive there (it's just 10km) - but what if the whole fluid just starts to leak out as soon as I start the engine.

[Asterix]

Top up the coolant and start the car. If the coolant doesn't flow out under the engine, then of to the dealer..

If you still don't feel right about it, stop after 1 km and check the level again.

[peon2t]

I'll do so.

Now strangely I saw two absolutely contradictory instruction how to fill up the coolant tank: The one source says that you have to fill in distilled water because otherwise the chalk damages your cooling system. The other source says that you should under no circumstances fill in distilled water because distilled water is much more corrosive than normal tap water and attacks the aluminium parts of the engine.
I guess it's true: You won't find any information about cars online without finding the exact opposite too. Just waiting for some page that says you'll have to put organe juice in...

EDIT:

I now filled it with normal water. It just took about 0.2 litre to come above the "L" mark. Afterward I started the engine and let it idle for about 30 seconds. After the 30 seconds there was no liquid under the car and the coolant level in the tank was unchanged. So at least it doesn't seem to gush out somewhere (or maybe I should have let the engine running longer?)

[eye30]

as you say there was coolant in the tank then i would deduce no issue.

check the tank after the engine has warmed up and you should see the liquid higher than when cold.

it should then return to the cold level.

mark the coolant level on the cold tank and you will see the rise and fall levels

[peon2t]

I hope you're right!

My concern is (not knowing anything about it) that there could have been air sucked into the cooling system.

Because even if there was still some coolant in the tank (as you can see on the picture) I fear that the pipe that leads out of the tank is (at least partially) above the level of the few drops of coolant that still were in the tank. If I look at this tank I have the feeling that it can never get empty because the "drain" isn't on the bottom.

[Asterix]

If there's air in the cooling system, the system will bleed itself, so no worries about that.

Only thing about this is, that it will then use some of the coolant from the tank. This bleeding will not happen before the engine reaches operating temperature, because the thermostat needs to open.

[Phil №❶]

If the photo was of a cold engine, you will see there is still fluid at the pipe, so no air has entered your system. I would not have added any water to the system before driving to the dealer and in an emergency, you should always use distilled water , not normal water.

[peon2t]

Thanks for all your advises!

I called the dealer this morning and he told me to fill up tap water to the middle between the 'F' and the 'L' mark (what I had already done) and then just continue to use te car. After about 500 or 1000km I should check if the water level has dropped again.

He said that they have seen similar problems and that it usually is just a bit of air that was in the cooling system from the beginning and that now has exited trough the coolant expansion reservoir.

For my part I'm wondering about the high amount of air that there must have been in the system in case his explanation is true. Well I'll do as he said (but of course not only check after 500 or 1000 km but much more often in the next weeks.)

[rustynutz]

Advising you to water down your coolant seems bizarre...by rights it should be refilled with more coolant. 

[eye30]

i forgot to say that the same happened to my car but mine was between the L and bottom.

i just topped up with tap water fto just below the H and been ok since.

[peon2t]

@ rustynutz

Well I guess 'coolant' is in fact nothing else than water mixed with some anti-corrosive / anti-frost agents. So if you just fill in like 0.2 or 0.3 litres (thats all it takes to get from the bottom over the 'L' mark) this small amount of water mixes itself with the rest of the coolant (which probably is 10 or 20 times more than the amount you fill in) so you just change the mixing ration between water and the additives a bit.
But of course I wouldn't like to do it regularly because sooner or later this mixing ratio would become bad.

[rustynutz]

What you say is true....I just find it strange that a dealer would encourage you to do this, and especially telling you to use tap water....