[FatBoy]

A sad day, with last count being 298 dead.

Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 ‘shot down’ on Ukraine-Russia border | News.com.au

Whether a terrorist attack, or an attack from either Russian or Ukrainian "fighters" this can never be good news.  Let's just hope this is the last time that a civilian jet is shot down "accidentally".  I really hope the USA don't get too vocal about this (USS Vincennes).  People in glass houses and all that.

Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nor the Russians.

Korean Air Lines Flight 007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Doggie 1]

Yes, terrible news.
Some Perth people on board too apparently, including a dad and his kids. 
Would have to be about the end of Malaysian Airlines, wouldn't it?

[Surferdude]

Dreadful news. Around 2 dozen Aussies supposed to be on board.

So, Fatboy and Gonz, a question from a layman.

We've flown from Singapore to London a number of times, which takes us over NW Pakistan and Afghanistan. We were led to believe that at the height commercial airliners fly, they were safe from ground based missiles. Yet this doesn't seem to be the case. Could one or both of you expand our knowledge on this, please.

[FatBoy]

It may sound a cop out, but it depends on the "threat". Many missiles can reach the height that commercial jets fly at. My expertise was flying below certain heights to avoid targeting. Again, this height depended on the threat (and the info is classified). We don't want to let the enemy know that we know.

[Lester]

The aircraft was reported as flying @ 33,000 feet over Eastern Ukraine.   Told by Euro Control to stay above 32,000 feet. The SAM missile fired has a range of 50,000 feet.   Therein lies the answer.

Yes a tragic incident.

[PhireSideZA]

This is so sad...what an unnecessary waste of innocent lives

I also recall reading that Ukraine were blaming the separatists and vice versa and no one took the blame. The first belief was that the separatists did not have the firepower to take out a commercial airliner at that altitude (shoulder-fired weapons commonly reach maybe only half of the height that the airliner was at).

But I also recall reading that they suspect it was a BUK launcher and that the operator did not know that it was a civillian flight? I call BS...

Here is a very in depth article on the subject for anyone interested(caution - there are graphic images on there, but they are blurred out until you click on them)

Malaysia Airlines Plane Carrying 298 People Shot Down Over Ukraine, Officials Say

[Mike SX]

@Wabbit16.
Thanks for that.
Clicking on the blur did nothing - just as well, I think

[Shambles]

Tragic

Air traffic being rerouted around Ukraine airspace:

[Just Rick]

  not a lot anyone can say,thoughts and prayers to those having t deal with their loss/es

[Surferdude]

I have a surfing mate who booked a flight to Germany last week. The best price he could get was a saving of nearly $2500 over the rest. On Malaysia Airlines, so they were obviously really hurting from MH370.
I suspect he'll be re-booking elsewhere and the dollars be damnned.

There is an intercepted conversation between separatists and a Russian commander, where they admit to shooting the plane down and it's a big "f**k up".

[Mike SX]

"Black Box" has been sent to Moscow 
Rocket launch site area to be announced "within an hour".

[The Gonz]

As has been said, systems like the SA-6 - not really modern or sophisticated - nevertheless has the range and accuracy to take out an airliner at altitude. AFG wasn't a threat because the coalition had air supremacy with nothing like an SA-6 in theatre.

Bad news all 'round on this one. Did Russia supply pro-Russian terrorists with the hardware? There's a lot more to capability than hardware - it needs training and ethics. I don't see any of that here.

[Aussie Keith]

Does anyone truly believe the separatists are just disaffected Ukrainians longing for the good old days. Or is Vlad running an arms length stealth campaign for a Ukrainian land grab?? Hmmm.

[Mike SX]

Smoke & mirrors 

[asathorny]

"Black Box" has been sent to Moscow 
Rocket launch site area to be announced "within an hour".

The last time the 'black box' was sent to Russia it was 20 years before anyone else saw the TRUE results.   The Russians have form here  <sigh>   

[Mike SX]

The last time the 'black box' was sent to Russia it was 20 years before anyone else saw the TRUE results.   The Russians have form here  <sigh>   

Known as "Got Previous" 

[CraigB]

Very very tragic this could also be the end for Malaysian Airlines as all airlines were advised in April 2014 to divert from flying over this troubled zone but the final decision was their own on whether to follow that advice, Qantas were the only airline who adhered to the advice and diverted around the troubled zone without question.

[meehalych]

Whoever did this must be prosecuted.

There are various speculations about what side of conflict in Ukrain is guilty. As was mentioned here that "There is an intercepted conversation between separatists and a Russian commander, where they admit to shooting the plane down and it's a big "f**k up" -  this is believed to be a fake (Ukrainians authorities have declared for many times of catching so called Russian spies, but so far so nothing; or one has to remember that massacre in Odessa where many people were killed and burnt alive - authorities first declared those people were Russian, no Russian was found, than they said people burnt themself).

Moreover Ukraine has already shot down civil aircraft back in 2001 - Russian Tu154 over black sea and it took them a considerable amount of time to accept it (they denied it was their fault in the beginning).
Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[meehalych]

Does anyone truly believe the separatists are just disaffected Ukrainians longing for the good old days. Or is Vlad running an arms length stealth campaign for a Ukrainian land grab?? Hmmm.

(click to show/hide)

This is your point of view, but the conflict commenced with two regions of Ukraine voted for a wider autonomy within country, the authority in Kiev desagreed and started sending army into the region. The most military hardware were captured from Ukrainian army (including one Su-25), one can find even two tanks of World War II taking part in a conflict - IS-3 and T-34

[The Gonz]

Uncanny. The day MH370 was lost I was delivering a lecture in Kuala Lumpur on Surveillance in the Asia Pacific region and got a fair few questions related to the missing flight.

Now that MH17 has made headlines, I wonder how many questions I'll be fielding in the Q&A session after this:

Events - Unlocking the Mysteries of Radar | AOC

I suppose anyone curious can register (free) and follow along!

[Phil №❶]

A truly tragic waste of lives. If it can be believed, a case of mistaken identity.

In all areas of current world conflict, I blame the arms manufacturers (on all sides) and their forked tongued governments.

[FatBoy]

Hopefully Malaysian Airlines will survive this.  While it has had two very large tragedies in the last few months, both events are unrelated and it appears out of control of the airline itself.  It will be interesting to see the reasons why the pilot chose to fly over the conflict area, and not avoid it like other airlines.  From my understanding, they weren't the only airline overflying the conflict area.

[diablo]

I've heard that 800 flights overflew that area in the previous seven days. I guess they were unlucky in being wrongly identified as a military cargo plane.

It seems suspicious that the rebels are keeping the observers away from most of the area.

Though of course conspiracy theorists and Russian supporters will say that the investigators intend to plant false evidence.

False evidence was planted at the Lockerbie disaster, so it is a credible argument.

[meehalych]

diablo

- no evidence that aircraft was shot down by any certain side of a conflict
- yesterday the guys from OSCE were said to have arrived at the scene (it may be too dangerous to be there so a ceasefire has to be negotiated first - yesterday 16 civilians were said to be killed in Lugansk when it was bombed by Kiev army)
- after an invasion in Iraq in 2003, everything is plausible (one has to remember the "proof" that made a military operation possible)
- as I said before: in 2001 Ukrainian army shot down our civil aircraft Tu-154 flying over the Black sea from Israel and they first denied everything

Let's wait for the end of investigation.

[Phil №❶]

Regardless of the politics, AFAIK, the bodies are still exposed to the elements. That is disgraceful. The relatives of the victims must feel personally insulted by this behavior in addition to their grief.

[FatBoy]

We have to be careful not to apply our morals and beliefs on others.  While we may find the behaviour of the belligerents abhorrent, we must let them conduct themselves as they see fit, not others see fit.  Judge them after the event, not before.

[Phil №❶]

If 25 refers to 24, then I disagree, it's should be human decency IMO.

[FatBoy]

So we should force our morals and beliefs on others?  IMO I don't believe that we should.  While I find the current situation distressing, we have to be aware that this is a war zone, and these things don't stop just because something terrible happens.

[The Gonz]

 
Once we step outside our own country's borders, you'll find there is surprisingly little holding renegade states to account, or our citizens' safety intact. International law by nature needs enforcing by a community of nations. Nothing is a given and no amount of outrage automatically rights the wrongs. War (perhaps terrorism moreso) is the ultimate expression of disregard for another's 'sovereign' expectations.

[Phil №❶]

The international community are displeased, a multi nation crash investigation is expected, as is the repatriation of 295 civilian bodies not directly concerned with the war. Even in WWII ceasefires were arranged for body removals.

It's not a matter of "forcing" anything, given that they were "erroneously targeted" in the first place I would have thought it would be a concession they should make. They're not making any friends behaving like this.