[Doggie 1]

Welcome johnee. if you do some searching on here you will find there are some interesting debates on here from time to time about that very subject...

Here is my unbiased opinion...

To add to the thread, here is my biased opinion.

Buy the diesel.

This is my first diesel small car and I would only buy diesel from now on. Character, torque, driveability, economy, etc.

You won't regret it.

..Yesterday I stuck my finger up the exhaust of two new CRDi's and removed my finger covered in black soot. It is this carcinoginic material which the DPF prevents...

Again, anything to support this supposition? I certainly am on your side WRT the green stance but presumably along with many others will need something more than "black soot" as scientific proof of a serious problem.

I understand I could "google" all my answers but I think it is incumbent on you to put your point, if I understand it correctly, that Hyundai are selling "dirty" cars to us.

How dirty is dirty, and is the last residue that important when considering all the other forms of pollution? Again, I'm putting these as questions more than argument. I have no particular stance other than a leaning towards where you are.

And without doubt you will not get a car with a DPF until Hyundai decide to offer it in your market.

And along with Lorian's thoughts, I personally was happy to get a non-DPF diesel which allows me to use a non low-SAPS oil which from my reading is more likely to be a better long term lubricant. My engine is expected to last me 250,000Km. How long I can get my preferred oil is another question because all (car and oil) manufacturers will eventually be forced to conform to the green directive.

[xlink_nz]

Pip & others

Diesel Particulate matter is known to cause Health issues, there is little doubt if any there. A brief overview can be found here with further external links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_matter and also here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_air_contaminants which lists the carcinogens with supporting external links. I"m sure you will agree it is more ideal to have a DPF

The issue I have is, that Hyundai NZ and Aust chose not to have the DPF fitted because they did not require too as the vehicle already meet Euro4 standards. The CRDi without the DPF in NZ and Aust will not meet Euro5 [which is why it has to be fitted in Europe]. The reason that Euro5 has increased the threshold on DPMs is because of the health and enviromental issue.

Also note some car manufactuers have choosen to fit a DPF since 2000 e.g. Peugeot even though they did not have too. Two alternative vehicles on our list do have a DPF.

Don't get me wrong the i30 CRDi was our preference vehicle for lots of really good reasons you all know about, but we are revaluating that in light of the absence of a DPF or alternative.

That said I am still waiting on some answers from Hyundai NZ. My issue is not with Hyundai themselves it is with the choices that Hyundai NZ and Aust made

FYI I own a petrol Hyundai [Lantra] now

Good on you for your following through on your principles.  Hyundai were also of course; their primary principle is to maximise profits. A DPF is I understand a significant cost item.

I will look at your links, thankyou.

[Dazzler]

I see things from a similar perspective to Pip.. I believe they haven't included the DPF when they didn't have to, to keep the i30 competetively priced. Until recently that was the best way to move a Hyundai (now they are starting to sell on their merits)

[eye30]

The reason that Euro5 has increased the threshold on DPMs is because of the health and enviromental issue.

I don't this matters at the moment with the impending fall of ash from the Icelandic volcano 

[Eiki]

Hi I am not an expert but I often wonder how much or little my car  pollutes, I belive there must be a connection how far you drive per liter/the cars economi and its pollution.
I am driving a cdri 1,6 and have recently added a powerchiphe, On the motorway here in Denmark i went for a 300 km trip this weekend, 4 persons in the car. avarege speed 120 km.h.  consum. 3,6 ltr. pr. 100 km thats ecual with 27,7 km pr.ltr.
Avarage use in town / short trips ca. 4.5 to 4.8 ltr.pr 100 km.
Regards....a happy Icelandic dieseldriver in Danmark 

[xlink_nz]

Good on you for your following through on your principles.  Hyundai were also of course; their primary principle is to maximise profits. A DPF is I understand a significant cost item.

I will look at your links, thankyou.

I see things from a similar perspective to Pip.. I believe they haven't included the DPF when they didn't have to, to keep the i30 competetively priced. Until recently that was the best way to move a Hyundai (now they are starting to sell on their merits)

Pip and Dazzler. Thank you for your replies. FYI in NZ all i30 models come with all safety features including Stability Control but there is no regulation to require the later. Hyundai NZ could make more profit by removing this or making it optional as in Aust but chose not to something I applaud them for. Furthmore as explained earlier Peugeot and Citroen include DPF in all vehicles in NZ and I beleive also VW. Therefore I don't readily buy the profit issue to explain no DPF in the i30 CRDi in NZ. Surely this is also a manuafacturing advantage in standardising componets ?

I suspect either an availbility issue or they [Hyundai NZ] felt there was [unlike Safety features] no demand or public expectation for a DPF which imho is very short sighted of Hyundai NZ and Aust esp. in NZ since we like to think we have a clean green image.

What astonishs me is that no NZ or Aust review I have read so far picked up on the lack on the absence of a DPF or similar device.

Pending a response from Hyundai NZ I intend to advise all the motoring journalists that reviewed the i30 in NZ of the lack of a DPF to raise awareness

[Lorian]

I don't think there is any conspiracy to not ship DPF equipped cars to Australia.

I think it's just to do with lead times to build assembly plant.  I speculate that there is not currently sufficient capacity to build the new gearbox for the U2 (euro5/DPF/6speed) engine to supply outside europe. They are supposed to be building a new gearbox plant in Nosovice and it's my guess that eventually gearboxes will be shipped from there to Korea for assembly on to the i30's destined for the southern hemisphere, when the new plant is complete. There hasn't been any info release on the new gearbox plant for a while though.

Speculation, but it seems a feasible explanation to me.

Euro 5 isn't mandatory for existing car models yet.

[xlink_nz]

Lorian

I assumed that all i30 CRDi's shipped in Europe to date had a DPF even with the 4 speed auto transmissions. Are you saying the only i30 diesels to have a DPF are the 6 speed manuals ?

Will this new 6 speed transmission be automatic too ?

FYI I am only interested in automatic transmission

Euro 5 isn't mandatory for existing car models yet.

September 2009: Euro 5 applies to all new car models
January 2011: Euro 5 applies to all new cars

http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/euro-5-emissions-standards-cars/article-133325

Pip and Dazzler. Thank you for your replies. FYI in NZ all i30 models come with all safety features including Stability Control but there is no regulation to require the later. Hyundai NZ could make more profit by removing this or making it optional as in Aust but chose not to something I applaud them for.

What astonishs me is that no NZ or Aust review I have read so far picked up on the lack on the absence of a DPF or similar device.

If I were in marketing I think I could easily make a case for ESP. In fact, I reckon it would already be near the top of most people's list of desirable features. I wouldn't have bought a car without it myself. On the other hand, DPF? "What's a DPF? Will it save me money? Will it save my life? No? Oh, OK, I can do without that!"

[Dazzler]

Well said Pip..

I think xlink is very much in the minority feeling so strongly about the lack of a DPF .. please correct me if I am wrong but I think he is the first member on here out of almost 1300 to mention it in that way...

Whereas, Stability control gets plenty of press on here (mostly in a positive way)

I'm really with xlink here. Although I should state, in much the same way that not fully-committed greenies are; I'm in - so long as it doesn't cost me anything!

Clearly this is not a real green attitude, but my point is that the majority of people are happy to accept anything, and I mean anything at all, that presents zero cost to them while benefiting the planet at the same time.

These sorts of confluences rarely happen.

[eye30]

Why or why do manufacturers build different spec for different countries.

Money!!!! or should I say bottom line PROFIT.

Surely by producing the same "bit" for all markets brings into play "economies of scale". 
I would expect by sourcing say 2 or 3 different "bits" for the same part may save slightly at the final point of production but just think how many parts for the same "bit" do they have to hold in stock.

[Lorian]

I assumed that all i30 CRDi's shipped in Europe to date had a DPF even with the 4 speed auto transmissions. Are you saying the only i30 diesels to have a DPF are the 6 speed manuals ?

I believe this is the case, at least here in the UK. Although we have no recent members with a CRDi automatic to check with (at least none that have mentioned having an auto) I have pulled the latest brochure, and the 4 speed automatic still shows the engine specs for the original U-series engine, which I believe will not have a DPF.

Will this new 6 speed transmission be automatic too ?

No, this is a manual box. There was mention some time ago when the U2 was "launched" that there would be a 4 speed automatic box to couple to the U2 but this has not been mentioned for some months. Presumably they need to do work to obtain EuroV for the automatic, but again this is a guess.

FYI I am only interested in automatic transmission

You won't see many people who consider their green credentials driving an automatic in the UK. The current i30 auto offering creates about 25% more co2. It would therefore also cost a lot more in annual vehicle excise duty here (car tax). Of course there is no choice if the auto box is required for medical reasons.

September 2009: Euro 5 applies to all new car models
January 2011: Euro 5 applies to all new cars

The point is the i30 is not a new car model. It's type approval for the diesel engine version in UK is still actually that from the U engine, so even though my car is for example a Euro5 compliant car with a DPF, it is officially listed as euro IV. The brochure implies this is still the case. Sometime they will get it re-tested, before the deadline no doubt.

[rushandy]

I can only comment on the engines I've personally driven, the 1.4 petrol and the 1.6 diesel.

I was surprised by the 1.4 petrol. It was smooth, quiet and refined. Around town it's more than adequate really. The only place I found it lacking was on the motorway, and that was something I would have struggled with. If you just needed a motor for round town, and aren't bothered about going slowly on the motorway, the 1.4 petrol is fine.

The diesel is torquier, more powerful and more frugal. It's not so refined though, but that's just diesels in general really. The 6th gear on the motorway is a dream and allows you to cruise at decent speeds without using a high rpm. The fuel economy is what made me decide to go for the diesel more than anything though. 62mpg in a car of this size and with this power is very good imho.

I'd just try all that you're interested in and see what you prefer, then try them again to make sure :-)

[xlink_nz]

Well said Pip..

I think xlink is very much in the minority feeling so strongly about the lack of a DPF .. please correct me if I am wrong but I think he is the first member on here out of almost 1300 to mention it in that way...

Whereas, Stability control gets plenty of press on here (mostly in a positive way)

It is all about awareness. My local dealer assumed it had a DPF and was somewhat shocked to hear it didn't have one. If customers were told that their prospective car had nothing in place to stop known carcinoginic emissions I'm sure many would be put off.

To raise awareness I have contacted all reviewers in NZ of the i30 CRDi and informed them. The NZ AA [who gave it car of year] when they got my email imediately contacted Hyundai NZ. In the absence of regulation, The more people that ask [like ESP] the higher the lightlyhood the new car importer will listen

Now for some good news. Hyundai NZ did advise me that the current i30 CRDi does have a Diesel Oxidisation Catalyst. They are going to find out how effective it is. DOCs remove between 20-60% DPM and sometimes as high as 80% but not as much as a DPF which can be 100% effective. Note Hyundai NZ have been very helpful and transparent

Pip [or anyone else in Aust NZ] feel free to find your DOC and let me know the model and manufacturer, then prehaps we can find out how much Diesel Particulate Matter is removed, if Hyundai don't.

Of note the IX35 in NZ does have a DPF ! [figure that one out]

The topic of DPF has come up before. Do a search and you will come up with the discussion. There is a "box" in the exhaust but I don't think it was definitively identified, only that it was not a DPF. Talking about Oz diesels here.

Aren't the actual pollutants specified by Hy? If the amount and type of the pollutants will influence your purchase decision, surely comparing these for the cars on your short list is more pertinant than obsessing over whether a DPF is fitted or not.

I understand your point that fitting a DPF will "improve" the results but if it aint there, it aint there.

[xlink_nz]

Aren't the actual pollutants specified by Hy?

No they are not, most manufactuers simply state Co2 emissions and whether they meet Euro4 or Euro5.

The absence of the DPF and how much PM is removed by the DOC in a CRDi is a definately a factor on any decision we make to get a CRDi. It could be we just get a petrol or dare I say it a much greener diesel car from another manufactuer

BTW I think this discussion is healthy

 

[Lorian]

HY UK have in the past published the particulate levels for the engine with the DOC and for the one model with the DOC and DPF, but this information has now been removed. It wil still be in the previous version of the sales brochure if anyone still has it, the one about September last year.

Pip & others

Diesel Particulate matter is known to cause Health issues, there is little doubt if any there. A brief overview can be found here with further external links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_particulate_matter and also here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_air_contaminants which lists the carcinogens with supporting external links. I"m sure you will agree it is more ideal to have a DPF

Yeah, ok I'm convinced, sounds like we ought have had a DPF as standard already. But we don't, and personally it would not have influenced my buying decision even with my greater enlightenment. It would probably just have remained a disappointment perhaps. If I could have chosen it as a cost option? Hmm...

[diablo]

I can only comment on the engines I've personally driven, the 1.4 petrol and the 1.6 diesel.

I was surprised by the 1.4 petrol. It was smooth, quiet and refined. Around town it's more than adequate really. The only place I found it lacking was on the motorway, and that was something I would have struggled with. If you just needed a motor for round town, and aren't bothered about going slowly on the motorway, the 1.4 petrol is fine.

The diesel is torquier, more powerful and more frugal. It's not so refined though, but that's just diesels in general really. The 6th gear on the motorway is a dream and allows you to cruise at decent speeds without using a high rpm. The fuel economy is what made me decide to go for the diesel more than anything though. 62mpg in a car of this size and with this power is very good imho.

I'd just try all that you're interested in and see what you prefer, then try them again to make sure :-)

My 1.4 does 80mph and more very sweetly on the motorway. Though I don't know what you count as slow.

The choice of diesel against petrol was a no-brainer decision for me as I mainly drive around town anyway and haven't done over 4000 miles a year for ages.

[2i30s]

i might like to add that you cant get bacteria growing in petrol.! so a petrol engine must be safer on fuel.if i put diesel in my car by accident im  safe to drain it out put in some petrol and keep driving. 

[Dazzler]

i might like to add that you cant get bacteria growing in petrol.! so a petrol engine must be safer on fuel.if i put diesel in my car by accident im  safe to drain it out put in some petrol and keep driving. 

Who asked your opinion anyway...

[2i30s]

dbo8 originally, and others.  

[Lakes]

well after this last trip i just compleated into the Aussie outback. i'm very happy i got diesel as if i needed to fill up out there, the diesel was same price as the cheapest of the cheap unlead fuels, where premium unlead fuel was priced way up like close to $1.50. the distance i covered on one tank & the population of most small towns out there being so low. i don't think i killed off many people from diesel fumes. but poor little betsy had to put up with the locus plauge she had dead locusts all over the front of her and the chineese replacement windscreen ( ps i really love this Chineese windscreen!)
we had a great trip and Betsy seems to like BP diesel as thats what i filled her on and also i put a small bottle of Wynnes Diesel fuel aditive $11 a bottle she has 1,100k on this tank and still has 1/4 of a tank left. if any petrol i30 can travel that far on a tank and at 110KPH i would be very impressed. also Betsy needs her 60,000k service i will be useing ELF oil fully Synthetic but higher quality base than what the Castrol synthetic i now use has.

also i thought i would point out, a guy with a Mazda 3 2.0L turbo diesel told me he has had problems with his DPF blocking up very expencive to replace too and car stopped would not run, less miles than betsy has on her. but i don't know the full story but the Mazda diesls fly.
cheers

[xlink_nz]

All

Based on my own googling and replies to this thread https://i30ownersclub.com/forum/index.php/topic,5626.0.html

Particulate Emissions for the i30 CRDi appear to be as follows:

0.02 g/km without DPF
0.005 g/km without DPF

Basicially there is four times more diesel particulate being emmitted without a DPF which could corralate to the DOC [diesel oxidisation catalyst] being 25% effective

NB: A DOC typically reduces emissions between 20-60%

I am still gathering more data...

Certainly the NZ and Aust i30 CRDi's are not green by the usual standards i..e less than 120g/km of C02 etc. Whether it is considered dirty I'll leave to each persons thoughts...

[Shambles]

Particulate Emissions for the i30 CRDi appear to be as follows:

0.02 g/km without DPF
0.005 g/km without DPF

Errmm.. I think you got a typo  

We know what you meant 

[Lorian]

They .au version emits more than 120g/Km co2? The european versions of the 1.6CRDi have been below this for more than a year. I think maybe it was 125g/Km for early cars, but an increase in one of the gear ratios (4th?) put it down to 119g/Km sometime early in 2009 (may have been 2008).

[xlink_nz]

They .au version emits more than 120g/Km co2?

correct the manual 128g and the auto [which is what I am interested in] 159g

http://www.hyundai.com.au/i30-CW/default.aspx

How come manual has less emissions and better economy - should I assume because it has 5 gears rather then the 4 of the automatic ?

Hyundai really need to get their automatics fuel effecient, the VW Golf TDI 1.6 does 4.8l/100 but has a 7 speed automatic DSG gear box