[donc]

Another thread is touching on the matter of choice between a diesel or ULP (petrol) i30 ... what factors contribute to this choice? - Is is as simple as personal preference -v- price -v- peformance -v- environmental considerations... or do other factors come into play?

In my case, I chose a petrol i30 over diesel for reasons totally unrelated to anything above. I purchased the car for my wife, and where we live, service stations are fairly few and far between; in most directions you travel more than 100 km or more to find the next servo.

When you do find a servo, it's self serve, the diesel bowser is usually seperate from the rest of the bowsers because it's designed to be accessible to large road trucks and plant. It often will not have overhead cover (when its raining), and the diesel pump will usually be of the high-volume type designed to fill large trucks quickly... meaning with the high detergent content of diesel fuels and propensity for foaming, 'splash-back' is very common when filling small cars leaving the bowser nozzel greasy and smelly and likely to splash the person holding the nozzle with diesel fuel. Plus diesel is very expensive.

My wife is a beautiful lady and to me, far more important than any suggested peformance or fuel economy pro's or cons. I'm not going to make her put up with smelly, dirty and often wet diesel bowsers.. plus... 95% of our driving is spent in a speed range of 95 to 105 kph. Drive 2 minutes in any direction and the speed limit is 100 kph for hundreds of kilometres. Over the past 2 days I have driven 750 km at an average speed of 93.6 kph (according to the GPS). Fuel economy was 7.1 litres per 100 km with 2 people in the car + luggage on twisting country roads. I know for a fact that a diesel i30 won't do much better than that, and it would cost even more for fuel.  

These are the reasons I chose an i30 that runs on ULP - different strokes for different folks

[LuciferDarklord]

Torque.  Low revs.  Thats what I like.  Plus the distance it goes on one tank.  Hi km's every day means i'm filling up the wifes car every second day, the i30 should go down to once a week once it arrives.  I dont care about the smelly bowsers or anything - my wife put up with the smell of diesel on me for many years when i did my apprenticeship, plus i work in a workshop not an office.  I think if my wife is going to drive the car i'll keep a set of latex gloves in the glove box (hey there ya go - thats why they are called glove boxes!) for her to use while refuelling

[Lakes]

Hey don, i can understand what your saying m8, as i have traveled through a lot of Australia .
So whats happened to our Bush? Looks like Paul Hogan got it renamed The Outback  then moved in self service to even the small Bush servo's

don it is simple realy why i chose diesel over petrol. if i was buying a petrol car it would not be a i30 mate. i was looking for a diesel as i like Torue and i like it low down, thats why i have a V8 ute.
also when i drive in same conditions you are talking about at the speed you are talking about i would expect to average 4L/100K with my i30 CRDi easy.
when i drive down the coast to visit my friends down past Narooma NSW, the roads are twistly hilly and very few overtaking lanes so if you drive a 4 cylinder petrol down there and drive like i do you won't get anywhere nere 7L/100K mate more like 10L/100K i got 4.9L/100k driving how i drive down there, my Ute uses the three valve 330cubic inch 5.4L V8 that makes 500nm Torue @ 3,200rev and 80% Torque @ 1,500 rev i have it set up to handle as its low it gets me down there quick enough and overtakes quick and safe i get 11L/100k driving that i was not as quick in the diesel but quick enough, i used to have a few 4 cylinder petrols and used to do that trip and they used a lot of fuel and i was always changing gear trying to get some Torue to overtake but with the diesel it just pulls 5th gear never need to shift back to overtake, Torque is what thrusts you forward mate not horsepower.
also the CRDi even the SX all come with those latex gloves genuine Hyundai, the Vortex premium diesel is low foam they use something else to keep things clean, i have not had it spit out the tank yet and have 12,000k, even in sydney i drive 1,000k before i refill in the country i have driven 1,200k before refilling, now it has 12,000k up it seems to be getting even better economy.
as i have said i drive a Toyota company car and its 4 cylinder petrol and i have to fill it up every two days i hate it! only seems to go about 400k to a tank same size tank as the i30 or could be larger?
i also drive a diesel truck once in a while and it never needs filling up very often gets better mileage in Sydney than the toyota petrol.
in other words i like to drive and i don't like stopping too often for fuel and i don't like changing gears all the time, go for a test drive in a i30 CRDi 5 speed m8.
and you can fill the tank for your wife once in a while

[donc]

Hey Lakes - I only know of two full service service stations... one just south of Noosa in QLD a few K's off the Bruce, and the other about 250 k's before you get to Broken Hill on the Barrier Highway (run by a top old bloke except the bowsers are usually broken-down whenever I'm passing through). AFAIK everything else is self-serve. Times have changed. Both the full-service servos are run by independents..

Lucifer also mentions Latex gloves as a solution. LOL - I can think of several reasons why I might ask my better half to wear Latex :-) - after all it is her car.

Cheers -

[TheBunyip]

Hi donc,

You need to talk to Shambles.

Fuel economy was 7.1 litres per 100 km ..... I know for a fact that a diesel i30 won't do much better than that,

Oh yes it will.  Unless you think 40- 50% less fuel consumption is no improvement. If you are comparing an i30 petrol or diesel with the thirst of the monsters you see all day then the saving may not seem much. Would the price premium you have to pay for diesel wipe out the 40-50% savings in your 750Km trips?

Now as for the cleanliness of the Servo pumps that is an interesting point. My hands peel badly after contact with Diesel so I have always carried disposable gloves for use when refueling. No thinking required just something I do automatically. My wife now uses my gloves too as she finds the pumps at the under cover servos we use often "greasy" so someone is overfilling to some extent. The last time I had to "go round the side" to use an Open Air Diesel pump was off the beaten track in France where, AFAIK  Diesel cars make up more than 60% of cars on the road. I suspect that France like the UK will experience far more rainy days in a year than you will see in most parts of inland Australia. Still I would not want to stand in the rain to refill too often.

Are you telling us that your servos use a larger diameter delivery nozzle than the standard design. Your description of a "High Volume type" is a surprise even if it would make good sense when filling heavy kit. I have only met one (slightly larger than petrol) size in the several countries that I have driven in, Australia, Europe and the Middle East, and have yet to meet one that seems to deliver fuel at the 'hard to control'  high rate that you imply. I have only ever experienced "Splash-back" when attempting to fill to the brim and that is easily avoided. So I guess it is all about perceptions.

For me the smell of Petrol rather than Diesel is a turn off. I suspect that my attitude may have something to do with never having been doused in Diesel and getting soaked in petrol from a faulty fuel line the day after reading extensively about the carcinogenic properties of petrol. Back to perceptions again. [/color]

[donc]

When you can get the chance to take an i30 CRDi for a decent test drive I think you and your good lady will be in for a delightful surprise.

Hi Bunyip - I road tested both diesel and ULP models before we made the purchase. The diesel is definately a nice car to drive and surprisingly smooth in the lower ranges - (I never said it wasn't a nice car!), but for us these variances in peformance weren't worth the extra $5,000 purchase price - even if peformance had been one of our prime considerations, which it wasn't (both engines peform exceptionally well).

As to high-volume diesel pumps... If you have travelled Australia (in a diesel vehicle of course) I'm surprised you have never seen one of these as the bowsers of most rural truck stops pump at a higher rate than domestic ULP counterparts (hardly surprising when most of the vehicles they fill consume fuel at rates around 45+ litres per 100k). If you are out our way again give me a shout - more than happy to show you around the place!

The fuel economy of a diesel i30 is remarkably good - no doubt at all - although if taking the argument that diesels are 'better' purely for reasons of saving money, then you sorta need to ensure the math is at least as good as the cars we are talking about :-) - there is no way an i30 diesel would really achieve a "40-50% savings". You might achieve 5 litres per 100 k, so lets be fair and say a 25-30% reduction in fuel consumption could be achieved in a diesl i30.

2 - Cost of fuel

I used  53 litres of ULP for the above trip - it's resonable to assume a diesel i30 would use 37.5 litres of distilate.
ULP is currently $1.58 per litre - trip fuel cost $83.74
Diesel is currently $1.74 per litre - trip fuel cost = $65.25

Conclusion - The difference in the cost of fuel for the above trip would be $18.49 in favour of the diesel (or approx a 23% reduction)

3 - Cost of the car

I paid $20,400 for a new SLX - the best price I could get for a new SLX CRDi was $25,500 (25% dearer)- difference in cost = $5,100.00 (assumes cash sale and no finance or other incumbance - obviously the price difference is greater when vehicles are encumbered due to compound interest on capital value).

4 - Reconcilliation

Under our normal driving circumstances a diesel i30 saves fuel costs at the rate of $18.49 per 750 kilometres. The diesel  costs $5,100 more to purchase. Cost equilibrium (fuel savings = increased purchase price) would be achieved when we have driven 206,868 km ($5,100 / $18.49 x 750 km)

Considering it's unlikely we will still own the car after 200,000 km there are no cost advantages for us in owning a diesel - in fact for us a diesel would be considerably more expensive to run and highly unlikely to hold a resale value of $5K greater than a petrol model after 200,000 km (sorry to pop that bubble).

But.... the diesel is still a fantastic car!

Well donc,

I have never - I repeat NEVER had anywhere near 7.1LPH with ouri30 diesel.  I consistently get sub 5.0 LPH and even as low as 4.3 LPH.  On 2 trips this year of just under 4000km each we got 4.9 LPH and 5.0 LPH  Now that is around 28% less than 7.1LPH.  At the moment I pay 1.68 a litre for diesel and 1.49 a litre for unleaded.  Now that is around 12% less for the petrol than diesel.

To top that off, I only have to fill up once every 1000+km.

Hey, and the price difference between the diesel and the petrol i30 is not $5000.  It's more like half that.  Oh and those high volume nozzles (pumps) are an Australian standard to prevent users from filling there petrol tanks with diesel.  They won't fit in the petrol filler pipe.  It has nothing to do with volume delivery, unless you happen to drive around the back and access the truck bowsers.  

For the life of me I can't see why this thread exists.  Unless of course it has something to do with some people trying to justify their purchase or perhaps say otheres have made a dumb one.

Bob

[davet]

the price difference between the diesel and the petrol i30 is not $5000.  It's more like half that.

List price maybe, but what donc is saying is that in the real world he was able to get a much bigger discount on a petrol slx than a diesel, due no doubt to the  relative availability/popularity of diesel and petrol models.

[eye30]

Quote:
Fuel economy was 7.1 litres per 100 km ..... I know for a fact that a diesel i30 won't do much better than that,

Check out these threads and you'll find several have had very good fuel consumption.
Diesel:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31&start=0

Petrol:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=317

[donc]

Guys (Bob especially) if you re-read the post above you might see I did calculate 5 litres per 100 k for the CRDi (rather close to your assesment wouldn't you agree?) for the 750 km trip as desribed. These are 'real world' averages that I think most CRDi drivers would agree to (125 kph peak speeds, hilly country roads and a fully laden vehicle etc.)

Also, Eye30 the price difference between fuels you cite in SA is comparable to my experience in NSW even though both fuel types seem cheaper in your neck of the woods - the ratio of difference in your figures would not change the final reconcilliation by any significant amount.

Davet has it spot-on about purchase price differences... I'm talking real-world, not dealer list prices. If anyone here has bought a new unencumbered CRDi for $21K or less then please let me know where you got it from - I had no luck at all getting any real discount offerings on a CRDi

Bob (who asks: "For the life of me I can't see why this thread exists") - the answer is very simple - it exists to help build community, for the value of discussion and for people to voice an opinion; same as any other discussion forum thread anywhere on the 'net!! - and like any other thread, if you don't like it, don't post to it  

and like any other thread, if you don't like it, don't post to it

I won't.  Oops, just did.  

Bye

Bob

[buddyforu]

I bought my SR because it looks great, is comfortable, has all the features I want and has a powerful and smooth engine. And that's it.

[donc]

I won't. Oops, just did.

LOL - Some people can't help themselves... but even if you can't acknowledge the value of debate, hopefully after re-reading my earlier post you did realize we agree on the issue of economy. It's just the way some people here claim the diesel i30 must always save money that I take issue with. If you take the math seriously; if you include all the major cost variables; I'm sorry but the numbers don't really support any cost advantages from diesel over ULP unless you drive huge km's (more than 200,000 over your term of ownership). Sure prices may change in the future (up or down) but none of us can predict that with accuracy.

I also realise some people might not like having paradigms challenged this way - but hey, it's just a chat forum. Nothing personal and all in good fun.

Bottom line, the i30 is a good little car - petrol or diesel.

[eye30]

Before I bought my 1.6 Crdi I worked out it's fuel pay back based on fuel cost at Sept 2007.
[difference in cost between petrol and diesel model OTR price, cost of the 2 fuels doing 7k miles pa based on manufacturers mile per gallon x 0.8 (just my factor from experience and talking to work collegues on their MPG) to give realistic driving miles for the year]

I don't have the figures now but I vaguely remembered the pay back on diesel model was just 9 months after petrol model.

BUT, and this is a BUT, in UK and the world in general, fuel cost rose very sharply just after I bought and rather than diesel being 1p or 2p less per litre than unleaded petrol in Sept 2007, today at my local Shell, Unleaded is £1.099 and diesel is £1.239. So the pendelum has swung towards unleaded in a big way.

So (I'll put this in a new thread) if oil has reduced by 24% why hasn't the pump price reduced.
For diesel its gon UP!
They say it takes 4 to 6 weeks to filter thro' to the pumps but they put it up almost immediately!!!

Today if I was buying I might consider petrol model if I cared to work out the breakeven point

[Hemmi]

I only bought petrol because the high end model is petrol only.

[blawler]

I simply bought the petrol for three reasons.

1. I calculated i would need to travel 93750 KM to recoup the difference in cost.

3. The exact amount of money I had was what i was charged for my SLX> ANd I really wanted the SLX

2. (And this is the most important one) I didnt have to wait months for it. Got it in 4 days :-D

[Lakes]

don the company toyota is just over one year old we get new ones every three years it's auto, goes good just uses 14L/100k in sydney and you can't go that fast in Sydney.
i was in SA a few months back the price of fuel was around the same as here m8 i'm in NSW i payed $1.62.9 for diesel same servo had unlead @ $1.49.9  but the price of fuel in sydney is all over the place. i use 98 ultimate in the Ute as it keeps my motor clean inside. if you buy a euro car there is not much difference in cost of fuel diesel to petrol as they don't have the 91 octaine crap lowest they use is 95. our m8 here Dave tried different fuels in his i30 SR and found he got the best economy with 98 octaine. in the end as long as you are happy. i'm happy with what i have .
Cheers

[donc]

Hi Lakes,

I have never owned an automatic car (hate driving them) but suspect the economy of this Toyota probably relates to transmission, tuning and city driving as much as anything. We also own a Nissan X-Trail and a Mazda - The Nissan averages 9.2 x 100k and the Mazda around 7.8 x 100k (slightly more than the i30). The last time I was getting anything like 14 x 100k was when we owned a GXL Landcruiser. It was a diesel, but it was also a tank

[donc]

Oh and those high volume nozzles (pumps) are an Australian standard to prevent users from filling there petrol tanks with diesel. They won't fit in the petrol filler pipe. It has nothing to do with volume delivery, unless you happen to drive around the back and access the truck bowsers.

Just caught this and thought it's also worth comment - Service Stations obviously form a large part of any decision re types of fuel used in our vehicles.

The above assumes service stations have multiple diesel bowsers; some on the drive-through and others 'out the back' for large transport rigs. Unfortunately in many parts of Australia that's just not the way it is - The writer is correct about the size of diesel bowser nozzles being to prevent distilate in vehicles not designed for it; however the volume of the pump is unrelated to this - Most of our servo's only have one diesel bowser - the high volume pump 'out the back' for trucks. This is the only diesel bowser they have.

Whether or not an increase in diesel cars will see service stations install additional diesel bowsers on their drive-through is also interesting to consider because there is a third major fuel in the market that hasn't been mentioned here yet - LPG.

In two weeks my X-Trail gets converted to LPG. The price of fuel drops from around $1.60 a litre to $0.65c a litre, I receive a $2,000 Government rebate (installation is $2,500 meaning it only cost me $500 for the conversion), my car becomes duel-fueled, LPG is Govt excise free, burns a lot cleaner and emits far fewer carbon emissions than either diesel or ULP. Even factoring the 20% increase in consumption from LPG, my fuel costs willd drop by more than half. I fully intend to get the i30 converted to LPG in the not-too-distant future (as soon as conversion mount kits become available for the i30). Diesel owners can also get the benefits of LPG if they choose.

The reality is... There are a lot more LPG cars around here than diesel, and considering servo's also get a Govt rebate for installing LPG bowsers on their drive-throughs, it's unlikely we will see additional diesel bowsers installed any time soon. All the investment is going into LPG.

[G14Classified101]

I bought my SR because it looks great, is comfortable, has all the features I want and has a powerful and smooth engine. And that's it.

What he ^^ said.... And plus im 20years old... Why drive a turbo diesel when i can drive a SR with nice power, leather, mags and half a body kit... But hey if the SR came in 2.0 CRD then maybe i would have considered it...

[Lakes]

I won't. Oops, just did.

LOL - Some people can't help themselves... but even if you can't acknowledge the value of debate, hopefully after re-reading my earlier post you did realize we agree on the issue of economy. It's just the way some people here claim the diesel i30 must always save money that I take issue with. If you take the math seriously; if you include all the major cost variables; I'm sorry but the numbers don't really support any cost advantages from diesel over ULP unless you drive huge km's (more than 200,000 over your term of ownership). Sure prices may change in the future (up or down) but none of us can predict that with accuracy.

I also realise some people might not like having paradigms challenged this way - but hey, it's just a chat forum. Nothing personal and all in good fun.

Bottom line, the i30 is a good little car - petrol or diesel.

don i'm not too worried about saving money, as i don't need to. i just like or i just seem to be doing lots of traveling on weekends, and i don't like having to stop for fuel, also i like filling up here in Sydney and not having to refuel till i get home. my V8 04 Ute gets a range of between 750 and 850k and i ran it on 98 octain just i want to keep that ute for good and it's got over 200,000 on it now so just went and ordered a new SX CRDi i30 i think was about last April or May took about 4 weeks to get. i have never had to fill ip sooner than 1,000k yet and furthest was 1,200k on the one tank. i'm happy with it and have no isue's the dealer told me if i did not like it bring it back and no worries about getting my money back.
but can understand what you ment about not wanting your wife driving a diesel. i always warm motor up and i always leave it idle for a minute or so b4 shuting down just to make sure the turbo has some oil on the bearing for when i start up. but know you can't ask the girls to do things like that. might not matter but thats how i like to do it.
Hey don is that servo that still serves you thats 250K from Broken Hill, is that before you get to Wilcania or after Wilcania?
Cheers

[slimbimjim]

Interesting thread!

Without driving one yet, I would prefer the turbo diesel mainly because there a lot of mountains here (Cairns) and I am interested in the torque and fuel economy that goes with it.

If I were to look at it as a cost proposal, it doesn't make sense as diesel is $0.10 more than petrol but the diesel i30 is $2,500 more than a petrol.

I'm also leaning towards the auto as my left knee is starting to hurt as I can't fit my leg under the wheel when changing gear (I'm 6'5" tall!) and it has to lean out to the side all the time.

[donc]

Hi Slimbimjim (good handle!) - Consensus here seems to be that choice of fuel is quite personal and subject to many and varying factors, although if you do find yourself limited to auto transmission the differences in economy (between ULP and diesel) will be even greater - ULP's with an auto trans are not known for economy.

Interesting I just saw another poster cite the cost difference between petrol and diesel i30's at $2,500 ... Just be aware this is only a published list price difference. You might want to shop around to see if it really reflects the best you can do in your 'real world' market... CRDi's are currently in very short supply in Aus with long waiting periods (some people saying over 6 months for particular colours and configurations!!!) meaning you really can't negotiate on price at all - On the other hand, it looks like a lot more ULP i30's have been imported recently and dealers seem to have stock of most models and configurations... this gives the buyer a lot more power. My experience was the difference in cost was actually  $5,100 (significantly moe than the promoted $2.5k)  - shop around! - A ULP i30 XLS is in direct competition with a range of small ULP cars (eg Mazda 3 and Ford Focus), meaning dealers are really willing to talk turkey.

[donc]

don i'm not too worried about saving money, as i don't need to

Lakes you gotta be a bachelor! - But good on you for saying what it's really all about - Like the SR owners here, we should purchase whatever it is that makes us happy! Me, I like to do the sums - and when buying something for my wife I like to buy that which suits her lifestyle, not mine (or I would have bought an SR too!). It is all about being happy with a purchase, and purchasing that which meets our individual and unique requirements. Just on trips - our average day trip floats between 300 and 1000 k's so sometimes will fill up on the road. This isn't a problem for us.  

Hey don is that servo that still serves you thats 250K from Broken Hill, is that before you get to Wilcania or after Wilcania?

Wilcania huh - ummm, it's not really on my radar (never stopped there. I'm sure most of the Aussie's here know why. I kinda like still being in one piece when I get home  The servo I mentioned is roughly half-way between Cobar and the 'Hill ... I guess that puts it on the Cobar side of Willy... you have me wondering now... will check next time I'm heading that way.

[eye30]

[quote="donc]

In two weeks my X-Trail gets converted to LPG. The price of fuel drops from around $1.60 a litre to $0.65c a litre[/quote]

You know what will happen once they have enough LPG's on the road.
The price of LPG will start to increase gradually to be on par with petrol/diesel.
Also, don't rule out taxing it.

[donc]

You know what will happen once they have enough LPG's on the road. The price of LPG will start to increase gradually to be on par with petrol/diesel. Also, don't rule out taxing it.

Maybe... Not sure how it works in the UK, but here in Aus most of our Taxi's already run on LPG along with a large proportion of Govt vehicles, buses and commercial fleet vehicles. LPG already has a larger market share than diesel in passsenger vehicles, yet it's diesel that's increasing by price every day, not LPG.

Apart from the lower production costs of LPG, another reason is we have Govt guarantees that LPG will not be taxed until 2011, and then only at a rate of 5% to increment annually up until it reaches a prorata based on energy content (a few % less than the tax on diesel and ULP - and last month our current Labor Govt announced it's considering scrapping any proposed tax on LPG under its new carbon compensation deals - LPG has much lower carbon emissions than diesel so they want to provide incentives for people to switch) - Which ever way it goes, the tax on LPG won't reach anywhere near the level of tax on diesel or ULP until at least 2026 - and by then most of the cars we are talking about here will be long dead and buried

[Lakes]

don i'm not too worried about saving money, as i don't need to

Lakes you gotta be a bachelor! - But good on you for saying what it's really all about - Like the SR owners here, we should purchase whatever it is that makes us happy! Me, I like to do the sums - and when buying something for my wife I like to buy that which suits her lifestyle, not mine (or I would have bought an SR too!). It is all about being happy with a purchase, and purchasing that which meets our individual and unique requirements. Just on trips - our average day trip floats between 300 and 1000 k's so sometimes will fill up on the road. This isn't a problem for us.  

Hey don is that servo that still serves you thats 250K from Broken Hill, is that before you get to Wilcania or after Wilcania?

Wilcania huh - ummm, it's not really on my radar (never stopped there. I'm sure most of the Aussie's here know why. I kinda like still being in one piece when I get home we had to stop at Wilcania as the harleys could only go about 250k on a tank, we did not have trouble but knew just to fill up and move out. it's like the wild west out there

[donc]

Silverton - that's real Mad Max country! Think I have some pics of us in Silverton as well as the servo we are chatting about. Will have a look tonight and put a few up if I can find them.

PS - Sadly my riding days are long gone - Last time I was doubling my wife at a mates farm we came across a creek crossing. Half-way across the front wheel hit a smooth rock and the bike kicked sideways. Guess who got tossed off the back and landed in the creek? I don't ride bikes anymore

[blawler]

LPG will rise significantly in price in the next 24 months. Currently it is not subject to the same government taxes as petrol is. This however is due to change shortly, and will more than likely rise by about 65c per litre.

[bdennis]

Back on topic.

I chose the SLX Diesel as I liked the torque of the Turbo Diesel from down low. Was impressed with the overall behaviour of the car (take off etc).
Drove a petrol but was not as impressed and just felt like another 4cyl auto.

Never drove the manual in either as I knew the wife wanted an auto so did not test as I know I would have wanted the manual.

Its a bit like not taking a new Falcon G6E Turbo or a FPV F6 for a spin. If I drove it I know I would have to have one.. If I stay out then I dont know what im missing!.. (Bit like a Aston or something like that..)

I was coming from high power (but factory) Turbo I6 or XR8 V8 so needed something to sooth my power hungry senses, all be it significantly less.

Chose the SLX over the SX due to alloy wheels, interior finish, climate control, look. etc