[Aussie Keith]

It is the job of the opposition to oppose, its in their jd. Lets take a recent example, the end of the world was nigh, reffos clogging up western sydney etc etc, the economy was going to implode, you get the picture. Today? All rainbows and butterflys apparently. That's what they do. Anyone who believes anything a pollie says... well I'll just leave it at that.

Just to recap, we have one block of perspective which says its bad to infringe on anyone's civil liberties - even if they don't  respect the law. On the other hand we have a view that those who refuse to accept the law deserve some special attention. That's OK, diversity of opinion is a good thing. Respect for diversity of opinion is also a good thing. That's the basis of a socratic discussion such as we almost have here.  I'm glad this is a place where these sorts of issues can be canvassed robustly.

On the government's proposal, I'll say that there is a long way to go before this happens and there will be a high court challenge for sure. Just getting it through the Qld parliament won't be the end of it, wait and see.  That's why we have checks and balances built into the system.

[Dazzler]

Like Keith is hinting at . I wish People could agree to disagree.

I am sure there is no right or wrong anwser to this. I can see merit on both sides.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but there is no need for anyone on here to be beratated (I think that is how you spell it)

Nobody on here is preposing the laws. 

[rustynutz]

On the government's proposal, I'll say that there is a long way to go before this happens and there will be a high court challenge for sure. Just getting it through the Qld parliament won't be the end of it, wait and see.  That's why we have checks and balances built into the system.

Didn't stop the anti association laws from going through and surviving a High Court challenge...... 
We should all be afraid....there is nothing limiting them to bikies....They could just as easily be used against any group whatsoever.... 

[rustynutz]

I am sure there is no right or wrong anwser to this. I can see merit on both sides.

Guess it depends on whether you believe that all humans should be treated equal, Daz....

BTW, am I the only one that finds it ironic that, on one hand here we are up in arms over OMG's and their lack of respect for our laws/rights, yet on the other hand, we're applauding the Government for disregarding our laws and human rights.... 

Something is terribly wrong there....tell me who are the outlaws again? 

[rustynutz]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-16/qld-anti-bikie-laws-shows-bleijie-lacks-legal-experience-ogorman/5025562

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/new-queensland-bikie-laws-an-absurd-way-to-deal-with-criminals/story-fnh4jt62-1226740876135

[beerman]

Simply quoting articles does not make it so....Especially when they use Terry O'Gorman, or lawyers who are retained by OMCG for their legal representation who do not disclose their conflict.

Fact is the world is not a utopia and Governments discriminate against people all the time, this is another example of that.

Governments across Australia have ignored the OMCG for too long, allowing them to grow. Now they are on the back foot and need to take control back. It is about time someone stood up and showed them that they will not be allowed to run rampant over the rest of society, nor thumb their noses at the men and women who uphold its laws.  Who is next? No one, because the laws are limited to members of criminal gangs.....

If you don't like the laws, then vote for someone different next time, oh but don't vote Labor, they supported them......

As an aside, Even if the laws don't stand up in the High Court, the argument on these laws have probably served their purpose of distracting us from the changes to work cover that were pushed through this week......

[Dazzler]

Well said beerman. 

[Aussie Keith]

On the government's proposal, I'll say that there is a long way to go before this happens and there will be a high court challenge for sure. Just getting it through the Qld parliament won't be the end of it, wait and see.  That's why we have checks and balances built into the system.

Didn't stop the anti association laws from going through and surviving a High Court challenge...... 
We should all be afraid....there is nothing limiting them to bikies....They could just as easily be used against any group whatsoever.... 

Your point is well made and your concerns noted. As beerman said, this is only likely to survive the current LNP tenure, even if it gets off the ground.

[rustynutz]

On the government's proposal, I'll say that there is a long way to go before this happens and there will be a high court challenge for sure. Just getting it through the Qld parliament won't be the end of it, wait and see.  That's why we have checks and balances built into the system.

Didn't stop the anti association laws from going through and surviving a High Court challenge...... 
We should all be afraid....there is nothing limiting them to bikies....They could just as easily be used against any group whatsoever.... 

Your point is well made and your concerns noted. As beerman said, this is only likely to survive the current LNP tenure, even if it gets off the ground.

Anti association laws are not something the current Government in Queensland bought in.
And as you may or may not know most other States have also introduced these laws so they aren't gonna go away....

[rustynutz]

Fact is the world is not a utopia and Governments discriminate against people all the time, this is another example of that.

So that makes it ok then....

Australia is supposedly a civilised Country but there's nothing civilised about these laws.
As for crimes OMG's may or may not commit, how are their crimes any worse than what anyone else may commit?
The Government is introducing up to a mandatory 25 years extra to be added to the regular sentence for bikies that commit a serious crime...
And they will serve this sentence in what will basically be solitary confinement...And you're all ok with that??? 


 

[rustynutz]

Queensland's 'war' on bikie gangs goes too far
By Greg Barns
Posted Wed 16 Oct 2013, 3:03pm AEDT

Queensland's proposed bikie laws are at odds with the purpose of punishment in a society guided by the rule of law.

The Newman Government's proposed bikie laws shred the rule of law. It's dangerous stuff but the question that must concern us all is, why stop at bikie gangs? writes Greg Barns.

The Liberal National Party government of Queensland Premier Campbell Newman yesterday introduced new laws as part of its 'war' on bikie gangs that might make even Russian president and renowned authoritarian Vladimir Putin blush.

And because the Newman government dominates the state's Legislative Assembly, and there is no upper house to scrutinise proposed laws, the dark image of Queensland as a repressive state, engendered by the excesses of the government of Joh Bjelke Petersen 40 years ago, is well and truly alive again.

Queensland Attorney-General Jarrod Bleijie yesterday introduced into the Parliament the Orwellian named Vicious Lawless Association Disestablishment Bill which the government says is "designed to severely punish members of criminal organisations that commit serious offences". 

Essentially it means that if you are associated with a bikie gang and commit a crime "for the purpose of participating in the affairs of" that organisation you will be declared a 'vicious lawless associate' and you get a further 15 years mandatory imprisonment on top of the sentence imposed on you; and if you hold an official position in the organisation you get another 10 years imprisonment on top of the 15 years.

The manifest horrendous injustice of these proposed laws is borne out by these examples.

A member of a bikie gang commits a theft by stealing a car.  If that person had no prior convictions they might only get three months jail.  But the court will have no choice but to impose at least 15 years imprisonment on that person. Similarly in the case of a person who is found in possession of drugs. No magistrate or judge should be asked to participate in such cruel outcomes.

Oh and you only get parole if you cooperate with police!  Since when has the parole system been about becoming an appendage of law enforcement?

Then there is the Tattoo Parlours Bill which the Newman Government wants to use to close down tattoo parlours because it thinks that bikies use such establishments for criminal purposes.  Like other pieces of legislation built on the premise of prohibition this one could lead to police taking bribes in exchange for turning a blind eye.

And finally the Criminal Law (Criminal Gangs Disruption) Amendment Bill which again discriminates against members of bikie gangs by increasing penalties for them if they commit certain offences.

If you are convicted of affray and you are a member of a bikie gang you get a mandatory six months imprisonment, irrespective of your role in the fracas. You get a mandatory one-year prison term if you are convicted of seriously assaulting a police officer. But what if the officer assaults an individual?

This Bill also creates new offences, carrying a mandatory one month jail term, concerning bikie gang members associating together and promoting or recruiting their organisation.

And where is the Newman government going to put all of these individuals once they are convicted?  In a bikie gang only jail where prisoners will be locked in their cells for 23 hours a day, and given no rehabilitation.

Such conditions of detention offend against Australia's international human rights obligations such as the Minimum Standards on the Treatment of Prisoners.

Furthermore, persons held for 23 hours a day in their cells suffer enormous psychiatric and physical harm and the Queensland government will rightly face legal action by prisoners for that damage.

The Newman government's shredding of the rule of law is dangerous stuff indeed.  Why stop at bikie gangs?  Why not amend the relevant legislation – or better still bypass the Parliament by simply introducing regulations - to include members of environmental NGOs, trade unions, community groups, asylum seekers?

Some will say that this notion is farfetched.  They are wrong.

Legislation which allows government to crush the rights of individuals in one context is easily used in another.

In countries like Malaysia and Singapore old colonial laws designed to stop the locals from getting uppity have been parlayed by contemporary governments to jail opposition leaders.  In the UK the former Labour government of Gordon Brown used anti-terror laws to freeze the assets of Icelandic banks during the GFC.

The Newman Government's proposed mandatory terms of imprisonment for members or associates of bikie gangs are utterly antithetical to the purpose of punishment in a society that supposedly subscribes to the rule of law – that is, fairness and certainty.

As the former High Court Chief Justice Gerard Brennan observed; "Criminal sanctions are purposive, and they are not inflicted judicially except for the purpose of protecting society; nor to an extent beyond what is necessary to achieve that purpose".

To jail a person for 15 years simply because when convicted of an offence they are a member or associate of a bikie gang, could never be said to be purposive.

Queensland has never been a bastion of liberty but the Newman Government's 'war' on bikie gangs has taken a truly sinister twist with yesterday’s announcements.

With a rubber stamp parliament and a supine media being facts of life in the sunshine state, the only force that stands against these proposed laws is the legal profession.  It is up to it to at the very least find creative ways to protect individuals from an out of control executive government.


Greg Barns is a barrister and a spokesman for the Australian Lawyers Alliance.

[rustynutz]

SOME bikie clubs set to be declared criminal organisations by the State Government have had no crimes recorded against them in the past year, it's been claimed.

Criminologist Terry Goldsworthy says the Queensland Police statistics, obtained under Right to Information laws, suggest bikie crime on the glitter strip isn't as bad as the government is making out.

``You've got a couple of high profile gangs who are doing most of the crime,'' the former Gold Coast detective told AAP.

``I'd be surprised if there is much evidence at all that the Finks are at the peak of organised crime on the Gold Coast.

``They'd be low-level players doing a bit of (drug) supplying here or there.''

The Bandidos commit more offences on the Gold Coast and in Logan than any other motorcycle gang, but the Finks aren't far behind.

But many of the other 24 gangs named as criminal organisations under new Queensland laws have only had a handful, or even no, members charged in the 17 months to May this year.

The Finks had 175 members charged with offences, surpassed only by the Bandidos with 220.

The Rebels, Lone Wolf and Nomads gangs rounded out the top five, each with about 65 members charged, while the Hells Angels had around 60.

From there, though, criminal activity among bikie gangs in the Gold Coast/Logan region dropped considerably.

Many of the other gangs, including the Red Devils and Comancheros, had no offences against their name, while only two bikie offenders belonged to the Odins Warriors and Gypsy Jokers.

Nevertheless, they were among the 26 gangs listed as criminal organisations under laws passed by parliament this week.

Dr Goldsworthy says the government would be better off directing police resources at problem clubs, rather than rushing ill-conceived anti-bikie laws through parliament.

``Here we have a response where we are loading a shotgun and firing at all these gangs,'' Dr Goldsworthy says.

``We should probably be better placing the resources we have ... and look at what are the problem clubs. I'd be targeting the Finks and Bandidos.''

To read more:

[AlanHo]

I am finding this thread rather tiresome - I drop in occasionally - only to find the same old stuff being churned out by both sides of the argument.

It worries me when what is reported in the media is taken as gospel - thus placing undue reliance on the views of journalists, politicians or whichever section of society who happen to have their own agenda or are distorting the facts to sell more papers or advertising space.

When you think about it - this is a small forum known only to a miniscule section of the population - and the views expressed here are hardly likely to change what the government is up to. Only the ballot box can do that - and even that method can prove to be highly unreliable.

However - if it makes you feel better to have a puff and blow on the forum - perhaps some purpose is served.

I'll get me coat......................

[Ugly Mongrel]

Alan, your comment is appreciated. If you lived in Queensland, you'd understand.

I side with Rusty on this issue. The fact that any government in a civilised county like Australia can legislate such draconian laws is disgusting., particularly when out existing laws are quite adequate.

As far as Rusty posting media reports, you'll notice that many of them are from respected commentators.

Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.

[Dazzler]

I'll get me coat......................

Can you grab mine too thanks Alan 

[rustynutz]

A helmet might be more useful.... 

[rustynutz]

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/first-arrests-under-new-qld-bikie-laws/story-e6frfku9-1226742475213

One has no criminal history and the other had been convicted of minor charges in 2000 and in the 1980s.....

I feel so safe now that the Queensland Government has saved us from 2 big bad criminal bikies... 

What a joke.....

[Aussie Keith]

[rustynutz]

 

[Dazzler]

Yeah and those blokes have a fair bit of "baggage" as well 

Some would say they are POSTer boys for the cause..

[Just Rick]

but when you think about it,they are in fact flounting the law,as stated clearly riding in a pack AND clearly again as stated,wearing an organisational patch,lock em all up without bail Quick 

[eye30]

but when you think about it,they are in fact flounting the law,as stated clearly riding in a pack AND clearly again as stated,wearing an organisational patch,lock em all up without bail Quick 

Who will POST bail?

[Doggie 1]

but when you think about it,they are in fact flounting the law,as stated clearly riding in a pack AND clearly again as stated,wearing an organisational patch,lock em all up without bail Quick 

Who will POST bail?

Someone with letters after their name.

[Keith]

but when you think about it,they are in fact flounting the law,as stated clearly riding in a pack AND clearly again as stated,wearing an organisational patch,lock em all up without bail Quick 

Who will POST bail?

Someone with letters after their name.

That might envelope a wide group of people

[Just Rick]

but when you think about it,they are in fact flounting the law,as stated clearly riding in a pack AND clearly again as stated,wearing an organisational patch,lock em all up without bail Quick 

Who will POST bail?

Someone with letters after their name.

That might envelope a wide group of people

But Yes this sort of thing MUST be STAMPED out 

[Dazzler]

News Flash! Those Posties have just been arrested .. They were "armed" .. with letter openners

and.. some of the envelopes they were carrying had money in them! 

[Ugly Mongrel]

Sins of the father?

http://brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cops-target-daughter-of-exbandidos-head-20131022-2vz6u.html

[rustynutz]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/blogs/blunt-instrument/bleijies-response-to-a-bad-decision-more-bad-decisions-20131021-2vxdc.html

[Doggie 1]

Sins of the father?

http://brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cops-target-daughter-of-exbandidos-head-20131022-2vz6u.html

Yes, just a nice, normal family of big teddy bears. 

He is due to face court next month on fraud, drug and property charges.

Ms Geary has known many Bandidos members over her life and describes them as "big teddy bears".

[rustynutz]

Hey! I'd class you as a "big teddy bear" too and you're an ex cop!