[Doggie 1]

I'm not ducking or denying facts, Dave, I just want to know  how Tony is going to "STOP" the boats, I mean, really STOP them.

RAN stops boats and turns them away from Australian waters when safe to do so.
The Pacific Solution that the COALITION introduced and Rudd has now reverted to after 6 years. 
Temporary Protection Visas so no matter how compelling the argument, refugees will not be granted permanent residency in Australia if they come via people smugglers' boats.
That is how.
The same way the Liberal/Nationals STOPPED them before Krudd cocked it up!

Rubbish, Dave. Nearly 90% of asylum seekers granted TPVs under Howard are now residing in Australia. That's pretty good "boat stopping" if ever I saw it.

Me thinks you are exaggerating the truth somewhat there UM. 
Where did you get that figure from? And residing in Australia under what sort of visa? Temporary or permanent?
Argue all you like but the facts speak for themselves.
Under the coalition there was no border protection problem.
Under Labor there was no border protection.
Dress it up anyway you like but 4 people v 50,000 says it all.
The issue is, you just won't admit it. 
The Liberals fixed it.
Labor f**ked it.
Hopefully the Libs will now get another go at re-fixing it again.

[Aussie Keith]

Well the great debate was a bust, booo hisss. I now know less than before. Here's hoping they fix it so there is a/, a debate, and b/, some real questions.

[Ugly Mongrel]

I'm not ducking or denying facts, Dave, I just want to know  how Tony is going to "STOP" the boats, I mean, really STOP them.

RAN stops boats and turns them away from Australian waters when safe to do so.
The Pacific Solution that the COALITION introduced and Rudd has now reverted to after 6 years. 
Temporary Protection Visas so no matter how compelling the argument, refugees will not be granted permanent residency in Australia if they come via people smugglers' boats.
That is how.
The same way the Liberal/Nationals STOPPED them before Krudd cocked it up!

Rubbish, Dave. Nearly 90% of asylum seekers granted TPVs under Howard are now residing in Australia. That's pretty good "boat stopping" if ever I saw it.

Me thinks you are exaggerating the truth somewhat there UM. 
Where did you get that figure from? And residing in Australia under what sort of visa? Temporary or permanent?
Argue all you like but the facts speak for themselves.
Under the coalition there was no border protection problem.
Under Labor there was no border protection.
Dress it up anyway you like but 4 people v 50,000 says it all.
The issue is, you just won't admit it. 
The Liberals fixed it.
Labor f**ked it.
Hopefully the Libs will now get another go at re-fixing it again.

Have a look here, Dave.

http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/21704/

[Aussie Keith]

A clarification, the boats never "stopped". Only 4 were ever turned back.  The evolved tactic is to scuttle the boat once they are about to get stopped which means the Navy then have to pick them up. I thought we had this discussion already. On the channel I was watching as soon as Tony said "we will stop the boats" the worm took a 90 degree turn down. I don't think anyone is buying the spin. Well, not too many people anyway.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/asylum-seekers-intentionally-set-fire-to-boat-police-20091001-gduj.html

Pretty hard to turn those boats around.

[Aussie Keith]

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/attack-puts-abbott-right-into-no-mans-land-20130723-2qhiv.html

Its a challenging situation. What's needed is a bipartisan approach that cuts out the politicking. Unfortunately I believe we lack the leadership on all sides of the fence needed to make this happen.

[Ugly Mongrel]

OK. Now I'm on record as preferring the LNP.
And I agree you can make the figures prove almost anything you want. So, would some of you have a look at this link and care to either pick it to pieces or support it?

I don't know who "Independent Australia" is, nor what their political leanings are, but they quote some interesting figures, some of which I have seen elsewhere.

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/we-really-must-talk-about-all-these-lies/

Thanks for posting this, Trev.

I won't comment on the figures, but I will say it's a very interesting and concise article that clearly debunks the nonsense sprouted by the conservatives that Australia's economy is stuffed.

Perhaps more people should read it.

[Doggie 1]

Does anyone else get so frustrated at the BILLIONS of dollars wasted by Labor or is it just me? 
Every time Rudd goes overseas (& Gillard too, I have to say), they go with an open cheque book (i.e. Australian tax payer's money).
I remember Rudd giving millions of dollars to South Somalia when they were declared an independent country, with no accountability. Just a gift. From us. Good onya Krudd. 
In Australia we have a health system in crisis in most, if not all, states and territories. Australians can't even get a bed straight away in our public hospitals. We queue our patients in corridors, literally. Is this acceptable?
We have massive domestic violence issue across the nation, yet we can give $97 million to address the DV issue in the Pacific region, plus appoint a women's interests minister for the Pacific region. 
This is disgusting. Why don't people uprise against these decisions?
This money should be going to Australia and to Australians!
All of the Labor supporters will undoubtedly come out now and "bash" me but honestly, it is out of control and no one is prepared to stand up and say so.
I agree with foreign aid. Let's get that straight. It is absolutely essential to help our neighbours wherever we can.
But the aid we give, although a small percentage of Australia's GDP, would make HUGE differences here in Australia.
Surely, we need to prioritise our own domestic issues.
The number of homeless people sleeping on the streets of Australia tonight is a national disgrace. But no government is serious about tackling that issue. Too hard, I guess. I thought it was bad in Perth, but on a recent visit to Sydney I have to say that in the area I stayed in, it was worse. 
But let's go to Indonesia and give them fighter jets and Navy patrol boats a s a gesture of goodwill from the Australian people on every visit because we are such nice people.
It's about time we got real in this country.
We are so stupid and are no doubt seen as such IMO.

[Phil №❶]

Sorry, but there are no shortages of people who are able to concoct stories to suit their argument. Clearly a Labor supporter, I tried to keep an open mind but "The value of the Australian Dollar", that has to be a joke, so I stopped reading at that point.

All I know is, that if you borrow money and have to pay interest, it reduces the amount of cash available in the economy and the wealth of the nation, just like it does in a household. There are economists that advocate borrowing as a normal function of the economy, which is a whole new discussion, but I say if you don't owe anybody anything, you have to be better off as a nation and you could even lend some to other nations so they can pay US interest instead.

2cents

[FatBoy]

As an ex-Naval member, who was involved in "Border Protection" duties as a part of OP RELEX II, I can say that it is nearly impossible to turn a vessel around in international waters (BTW, that is right up to 12 Nautical Miles from the coast), as you have to prove INTENT to commit a crime (and it is not a crime to seek asylum). 

There is a difference between EEZ (200 NM) and territorial waters (12 NM).  Craft on the open ocean have a "right of free passage" and can only be stopped if they are doing something illegal.

The reason I believe that the boats should be stopped is that it is dangerous, and people are losing their lives.  If the new Labor scheme stops one person from being drowned, then it is a good scheme.  Likewise with any coalition plan.

[Doggie 1]

1000 + deaths in those waters since 2007. 

I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.

I also understand that the crew on those boats will be told to scuttle the boats if the RAN attempts to turn them around and that this act itself, will deem it "unsafe to do so."

[Ugly Mongrel]

1000 + deaths in those waters since 2007. 

I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.

I also understand that the crew on those boats will be told to scuttle the boats if the RAN attempts to turn them around and that this act itself, will deem it "unsafe to do so."

Didn't you read Fatboy's post, Dave.  Boats on the open ocean are not "illegal".

[Doggie 1]

1000 + deaths in those waters since 2007. 

I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.

I also understand that the crew on those boats will be told to scuttle the boats if the RAN attempts to turn them around and that this act itself, will deem it "unsafe to do so."

Didn't you read Fatboy's post, Dave.  Boats on the open ocean are not "illegal".

I understood it perfectly, Terry.
But people who pay people smugglers are a party to a criminal offence and therefore they are illegal.
It is not an offence for genuine refugees to seek asylum, but if they have passed through other countries where they could have sought asylum on their way to their "chosen" country, that makes them "illegals" if they employ criminals to enable them to achieve their aim.
Do you understand that, Terry? 

[Ugly Mongrel]

No, I don't understand that, Dave. We're talking about stopping boats, not people.

[FatBoy]

I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.

Not true.  I have spoken to many Ship Captains, they can only do so if it is in Australian Territorial Waters, and they are committing, or intend committing a crime.  It is very hard to prove intent.

I understood it perfectly, Terry.
But people who pay people smugglers are a party to a criminal offence and therefore they are illegal.
It is not an offence for genuine refugees to seek asylum, but if they have passed through other countries where they could have sought asylum on their way to their "chosen" country, that makes them "illegals" if they employ criminals to enable them to achieve their aim.
Do you understand that, Terry? 

Did they pay anybody in Australia?  Do you have PROOF that they did?  Or only hearsay from Today Tonight?  Therefore they are not committing a crime, they could have paid a nice fishing boat owner $10,000 to take them on a tour of Australia's Northern Waters.  Prove that they didn't...

Do you understand that Dave?

[Doggie 1]

I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.

Not true.  I have spoken to many Ship Captains, they can only do so if it is in Australian Territorial Waters, and they are committing, or intend committing a crime.  It is very hard to prove intent.

I understood it perfectly, Terry.
But people who pay people smugglers are a party to a criminal offence and therefore they are illegal.
It is not an offence for genuine refugees to seek asylum, but if they have passed through other countries where they could have sought asylum on their way to their "chosen" country, that makes them "illegals" if they employ criminals to enable them to achieve their aim.
Do you understand that, Terry? 

Did they pay anybody in Australia?  Do you have PROOF that they did?  Or only hearsay from Today Tonight?  Therefore they are not committing a crime, they could have paid a nice fishing boat owner $10,000 to take them on a tour of Australia's Northern Waters.  Prove that they didn't...

Do you understand that Dave?

You've got to be joking. 
I don't believe you are that gullible, Jamie.
Do you understand that?

[Doggie 1]

No, I don't understand that, Dave. We're talking about stopping boats, not people.

Read it again. You'll get there eventually. 

[FatBoy]

It was tongue in cheek, Dave.  What I am saying is that it is difficult to prove things in these cases, until they reach Australian waters and commit a crime here, and it is proven, they are innocent.

I can't be gullible, the nice man from the Government told me that they had taken that word out of the dictionary....

[Ugly Mongrel]

Does anyone else get so frustrated at the BILLIONS of dollars wasted by Labor or is it just me? 
Every time Rudd goes overseas (& Gillard too, I have to say), they go with an open cheque book (i.e. Australian tax payer's money).
I remember Rudd giving millions of dollars to South Somalia when they were declared an independent country, with no accountability. Just a gift. From us. Good onya Krudd. 
In Australia we have a health system in crisis in most, if not all, states and territories. Australians can't even get a bed straight away in our public hospitals. We queue our patients in corridors, literally. Is this acceptable?
We have massive domestic violence issue across the nation, yet we can give $97 million to address the DV issue in the Pacific region, plus appoint a women's interests minister for the Pacific region. 
This is disgusting. Why don't people uprise against these decisions?
This money should be going to Australia and to Australians!
All of the Labor supporters will undoubtedly come out now and "bash" me but honestly, it is out of control and no one is prepared to stand up and say so.
I agree with foreign aid. Let's get that straight. It is absolutely essential to help our neighbours wherever we can.
But the aid we give, although a small percentage of Australia's GDP, would make HUGE differences here in Australia.
Surely, we need to prioritise our own domestic issues.
The number of homeless people sleeping on the streets of Australia tonight is a national disgrace. But no government is serious about tackling that issue. Too hard, I guess. I thought it was bad in Perth, but on a recent visit to Sydney I have to say that in the area I stayed in, it was worse. 
But let's go to Indonesia and give them fighter jets and Navy patrol boats a s a gesture of goodwill from the Australian people on every visit because we are such nice people.
It's about time we got real in this country.
We are so stupid and are no doubt seen as such IMO.

Yes, Dave, I too get frustrated by the BILLIONS of dollars wasted by Howard. But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.


Quote from Wikipedia.

"The cost of the Iraq war to Australian taxpayers is estimated to have exceeded A$3 billion. The cost of Australia's involvement in Iraq has risen since the initial invasion gave way to a protracted insurgency. Excluding debt relief, the annual cost has risen from just over $400 million in 2003–04 to $576.6 million in the 2007 financial year. [31] Ancillary costs included:

$494.5 million in the base wage and personnel costs for Australian Defence Force troops deployed in Iraq not included in the net additional spending figures; $211.5 million spent by Foreign Affairs and other departments on aid, reconstruction, Australia's diplomatic presence in Baghdad and tax concessions for soldiers; and $668 million in Iraqi debts waived by Australia."

BTW, if you think that horrible war was worth all those BILLIONS, read this...

. http://communities.deakin.edu.au/deakin-speaking/node/466

[Doggie 1]

It was tongue in cheek, Dave.  What I am saying is that it is difficult to prove things in these cases, until they reach Australian waters and commit a crime here, and it is proven, they are innocent.

I can't be gullible, the nice man from the Government told me that they had taken that word out of the dictionary....

   Good answer.
Well I'm not.
In my work I have had quite a bit to do with refugees and honestly, if someone needs help I would be the first to help. Anyone, anywhere.
But we are being taken for a ride here and I do believe that the vast "silent" majority of Australians know this.
Take a drive (flight?  ) up to Northam in WA and take a look at the so-called asylum seekers there and then tell me that they are all genuine refugees.
I have very close contacts in FedPol and at Christmas Island and some of the information coming out of there would make your hair curl.
Genuine refugees my arse.
As I have said before. I would rather (and I believe we should) take TEN genuine refugees out of a refugee camp in Asia or Africa for every ONE of these pretenders who are arriving by boat in our northern waters.
By all means, increase the intake and offer people in need a new life in our "lucky" country.
But don't be fooled by these illegals who arrive almost daily by boat in the company of criminal people smuggling syndicates.

[Doggie 1]

But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.

Bullshit. You have no idea and nor do I where that money went. I suspect to the corrupt government, but not to the people who needed it.
It is too easy to believe what you read. You have no idea where all of our money went in that instance.
It was given by Rudd to make Rudd look good and feel good.
Something he does an awful lot.

[FatBoy]

That is one of the reasons they are coming by boat, because the genuine refugees languish in camps for years, if we took more from here then people would be willing to wait a bit.  I agree with you, Dave, help the needy first, but we can't decide from the comfort of our homes who are and who aren't genuine.

I do believe you are gullible, after all you think the P76 is a great car.   

[Doggie 1]

That is one of the reasons they are coming by boat, because the genuine refugees languish in camps for years, if we took more from here then people would be willing to wait a bit.  I agree with you, Dave, help the needy first, but we can't decide from the comfort of our homes who are and who aren't genuine.

I do believe you are gullible, after all you think the P76 is a great car.   

       

[Ugly Mongrel]

But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.

Bullshit. You have no idea and nor do I where that money went. I suspect to the corrupt government, but not to the people who needed it.
It is too easy to believe what you read. You have noi idea where all of our money went in that instance.
It was given by Rudd to make Rudd look good and feel good.
Something he does an awful lot.

Just like Howard did to look good with George W.

Great to see you couldn't refute Howard's Iraq war waste, Dave.

BTW, you must have some "inside" information about where Australian aid in Somalia went.

Perhaps you could let Ausaid know your sources.

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/HotTopics/pages/display.aspx?QID=86

[Doggie 1]

But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.

Bullshit. You have no idea and nor do I where that money went. I suspect to the corrupt government, but not to the people who needed it.
It is too easy to believe what you read. You have noi idea where all of our money went in that instance.
It was given by Rudd to make Rudd look good and feel good.
Something he does an awful lot.

Just like Howard did to look good with George W.

Great to see you couldn't refute Howard's Iraq war waste, Dave.

BTW, you must have some "inside" information about where Australian aid in Somalia went.

Perhaps you could let Ausaid know your sources.

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/HotTopics/pages/display.aspx?QID=86

Not that I couldn't, just that I didn't bother.
And you are quoting stuff from the federal Labor govt as to what the federal Labor govt did with the money?
Get real. 

[Phil №❶]

We all know that there is a right way and a wrong way for refugees to arrive in Australia. Like Dave, I've no objection to genuine refugees entering this country through the correct channels. The so called boat people who do use illegal processes to obtain entry are usually desperate queue jumpers escaping the ravages of war in their region (so we are told),. If this is so, then establishing a peaceful regime in these regions would seem to be the answer to the refugee problem, so why bag the cost of war in monetary terms, it is necessary to obtain peace. Soldiers from all participating countries have paid the ultimate price for peace and I would not dishonour their sacrifice, by suggesting that we turn tail and run away for financial reasons.

There is a modern mentality on the world that war is bad. YES IT IS, IT IS HORRIFIC, but the alternatives are to roll over and be dominated by every SOB dictator who wants to have a go.

Recently, I met and befriended a Vietnam Veteran, who to this day is visibly upset, when recounting his last order given to his unit on disembarking the ship and returning to Australia.

The order was "Remove your uniforms and leave the ship in civilian clothing." He was nearly in tears, even after all these years. Very shabby treatment. 

[Just Rick]

Fight you buggers I hate peace 

[Surferdude]

I have to agree with Dave as to the fact that charity should begin at home. I'm not against foreign aid but it does need to be accountable. The Somalian thing wasn't, despite Ausaids claims to the contrary.
We need to accept that ALL parties have their own agendas. Ausaid is no different. Just imagine how quickly support for them would dry up if they came out and said local war lords are pilfering most of what we deliver there.

[Ugly Mongrel]

I would  rather have my government spend money helping starving people than join an unnecessary war to kill people.

[Just Rick]

Recently, I met and befriended a Vietnam Veteran, who to this day is visibly upset, when recounting his last order given to his unit on disembarking the ship and returning to Australia.

The order was "Remove your uniforms and leave the ship in civilian clothing." He was nearly in tears, even after all these years. Very shabby treatment. 

I still have one or two friends,which also are Vietnam Vets,which have also told me the same thing,they were also told never to speak of it either

[Surferdude]

Recently, I met and befriended a Vietnam Veteran, who to this day is visibly upset, when recounting his last order given to his unit on disembarking the ship and returning to Australia.

The order was "Remove your uniforms and leave the ship in civilian clothing." He was nearly in tears, even after all these years. Very shabby treatment. 

I still have one or two friends,which also are Vietnam Vets,which have also told me the same thing,they were also told never to speak of it either

Jimmy Barnes said it. "There were no D Day heroes in 1973".

Bloody disgrace and a pox on those Australians who were responsible for it