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Quote from: db08 on August 11, 2013, 12:38:28Quote from: Ugly Mongrel on August 11, 2013, 12:36:00I'm not ducking or denying facts, Dave, I just want to know how Tony is going to "STOP" the boats, I mean, really STOP them. RAN stops boats and turns them away from Australian waters when safe to do so.The Pacific Solution that the COALITION introduced and Rudd has now reverted to after 6 years. Temporary Protection Visas so no matter how compelling the argument, refugees will not be granted permanent residency in Australia if they come via people smugglers' boats.That is how.The same way the Liberal/Nationals STOPPED them before Krudd cocked it up!Rubbish, Dave. Nearly 90% of asylum seekers granted TPVs under Howard are now residing in Australia. That's pretty good "boat stopping" if ever I saw it.
Quote from: Ugly Mongrel on August 11, 2013, 12:36:00I'm not ducking or denying facts, Dave, I just want to know how Tony is going to "STOP" the boats, I mean, really STOP them. RAN stops boats and turns them away from Australian waters when safe to do so.The Pacific Solution that the COALITION introduced and Rudd has now reverted to after 6 years. Temporary Protection Visas so no matter how compelling the argument, refugees will not be granted permanent residency in Australia if they come via people smugglers' boats.That is how.The same way the Liberal/Nationals STOPPED them before Krudd cocked it up!
I'm not ducking or denying facts, Dave, I just want to know how Tony is going to "STOP" the boats, I mean, really STOP them.
Quote from: Ugly Mongrel on August 11, 2013, 12:50:09Quote from: db08 on August 11, 2013, 12:38:28Quote from: Ugly Mongrel on August 11, 2013, 12:36:00I'm not ducking or denying facts, Dave, I just want to know how Tony is going to "STOP" the boats, I mean, really STOP them. RAN stops boats and turns them away from Australian waters when safe to do so.The Pacific Solution that the COALITION introduced and Rudd has now reverted to after 6 years. Temporary Protection Visas so no matter how compelling the argument, refugees will not be granted permanent residency in Australia if they come via people smugglers' boats.That is how.The same way the Liberal/Nationals STOPPED them before Krudd cocked it up!Rubbish, Dave. Nearly 90% of asylum seekers granted TPVs under Howard are now residing in Australia. That's pretty good "boat stopping" if ever I saw it.Me thinks you are exaggerating the truth somewhat there UM. Where did you get that figure from? And residing in Australia under what sort of visa? Temporary or permanent?Argue all you like but the facts speak for themselves.Under the coalition there was no border protection problem.Under Labor there was no border protection.Dress it up anyway you like but 4 people v 50,000 says it all.The issue is, you just won't admit it. The Liberals fixed it.Labor f**ked it.Hopefully the Libs will now get another go at re-fixing it again.
OK. Now I'm on record as preferring the LNP.And I agree you can make the figures prove almost anything you want. So, would some of you have a look at this link and care to either pick it to pieces or support it?I don't know who "Independent Australia" is, nor what their political leanings are, but they quote some interesting figures, some of which I have seen elsewhere.http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/we-really-must-talk-about-all-these-lies/
1000 + deaths in those waters since 2007. I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.I also understand that the crew on those boats will be told to scuttle the boats if the RAN attempts to turn them around and that this act itself, will deem it "unsafe to do so."
Quote from: db08 on August 12, 2013, 11:24:471000 + deaths in those waters since 2007. I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.I also understand that the crew on those boats will be told to scuttle the boats if the RAN attempts to turn them around and that this act itself, will deem it "unsafe to do so."Didn't you read Fatboy's post, Dave. Boats on the open ocean are not "illegal".
I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.
I understood it perfectly, Terry.But people who pay people smugglers are a party to a criminal offence and therefore they are illegal.It is not an offence for genuine refugees to seek asylum, but if they have passed through other countries where they could have sought asylum on their way to their "chosen" country, that makes them "illegals" if they employ criminals to enable them to achieve their aim.Do you understand that, Terry?
Quote from: db08 on August 12, 2013, 11:24:47I understand that the heirarchy of the RAN has itself indicated that it has before, and can again, turn illegal asylum seeker boats around.Not true. I have spoken to many Ship Captains, they can only do so if it is in Australian Territorial Waters, and they are committing, or intend committing a crime. It is very hard to prove intent.Quote from: db08 on August 12, 2013, 11:47:34I understood it perfectly, Terry.But people who pay people smugglers are a party to a criminal offence and therefore they are illegal.It is not an offence for genuine refugees to seek asylum, but if they have passed through other countries where they could have sought asylum on their way to their "chosen" country, that makes them "illegals" if they employ criminals to enable them to achieve their aim.Do you understand that, Terry? Did they pay anybody in Australia? Do you have PROOF that they did? Or only hearsay from Today Tonight? Therefore they are not committing a crime, they could have paid a nice fishing boat owner $10,000 to take them on a tour of Australia's Northern Waters. Prove that they didn't...Do you understand that Dave?
No, I don't understand that, Dave. We're talking about stopping boats, not people.
Does anyone else get so frustrated at the BILLIONS of dollars wasted by Labor or is it just me? Every time Rudd goes overseas (& Gillard too, I have to say), they go with an open cheque book (i.e. Australian tax payer's money).I remember Rudd giving millions of dollars to South Somalia when they were declared an independent country, with no accountability. Just a gift. From us. Good onya Krudd. In Australia we have a health system in crisis in most, if not all, states and territories. Australians can't even get a bed straight away in our public hospitals. We queue our patients in corridors, literally. Is this acceptable?We have massive domestic violence issue across the nation, yet we can give $97 million to address the DV issue in the Pacific region, plus appoint a women's interests minister for the Pacific region. This is disgusting. Why don't people uprise against these decisions?This money should be going to Australia and to Australians!All of the Labor supporters will undoubtedly come out now and "bash" me but honestly, it is out of control and no one is prepared to stand up and say so.I agree with foreign aid. Let's get that straight. It is absolutely essential to help our neighbours wherever we can.But the aid we give, although a small percentage of Australia's GDP, would make HUGE differences here in Australia.Surely, we need to prioritise our own domestic issues.The number of homeless people sleeping on the streets of Australia tonight is a national disgrace. But no government is serious about tackling that issue. Too hard, I guess. I thought it was bad in Perth, but on a recent visit to Sydney I have to say that in the area I stayed in, it was worse. But let's go to Indonesia and give them fighter jets and Navy patrol boats a s a gesture of goodwill from the Australian people on every visit because we are such nice people.It's about time we got real in this country.We are so stupid and are no doubt seen as such IMO.
It was tongue in cheek, Dave. What I am saying is that it is difficult to prove things in these cases, until they reach Australian waters and commit a crime here, and it is proven, they are innocent.I can't be gullible, the nice man from the Government told me that they had taken that word out of the dictionary....
But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.
That is one of the reasons they are coming by boat, because the genuine refugees languish in camps for years, if we took more from here then people would be willing to wait a bit. I agree with you, Dave, help the needy first, but we can't decide from the comfort of our homes who are and who aren't genuine.I do believe you are gullible, after all you think the P76 is a great car.
Quote from: Ugly Mongrel on August 12, 2013, 12:04:14But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.Bullshit. You have no idea and nor do I where that money went. I suspect to the corrupt government, but not to the people who needed it.It is too easy to believe what you read. You have noi idea where all of our money went in that instance.It was given by Rudd to make Rudd look good and feel good.Something he does an awful lot.
Quote from: db08 on August 12, 2013, 12:09:13Quote from: Ugly Mongrel on August 12, 2013, 12:04:14But I suppose those dollars were well spent finding those WMDs as opposed to Labor's donation to Somalia which actually helped people.Bullshit. You have no idea and nor do I where that money went. I suspect to the corrupt government, but not to the people who needed it.It is too easy to believe what you read. You have noi idea where all of our money went in that instance.It was given by Rudd to make Rudd look good and feel good.Something he does an awful lot.Just like Howard did to look good with George W. Great to see you couldn't refute Howard's Iraq war waste, Dave.BTW, you must have some "inside" information about where Australian aid in Somalia went. Perhaps you could let Ausaid know your sources.http://www.ausaid.gov.au/HotTopics/pages/display.aspx?QID=86
Recently, I met and befriended a Vietnam Veteran, who to this day is visibly upset, when recounting his last order given to his unit on disembarking the ship and returning to Australia. The order was "Remove your uniforms and leave the ship in civilian clothing." He was nearly in tears, even after all these years. Very shabby treatment.
Quote from: Phil №❶ on August 12, 2013, 12:38:25Recently, I met and befriended a Vietnam Veteran, who to this day is visibly upset, when recounting his last order given to his unit on disembarking the ship and returning to Australia. The order was "Remove your uniforms and leave the ship in civilian clothing." He was nearly in tears, even after all these years. Very shabby treatment. I still have one or two friends,which also are Vietnam Vets,which have also told me the same thing,they were also told never to speak of it either